Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 18 - Official Discussion Thread

[Gaffer Tape]

This is just something I've been musing on for the past few days. When people (myself included) say Goku's transformation didn't land with them, didn't feel connected to a story, or properly set up, I see the counter always being presented as, "Well, isn't Neva just doing the same thing that the Grand Elder does on Namek? So it is set up." But I feel that's missing the point. It's treating storytelling as this strictly quantifiable formula: Put one unit of setup in, get one unit of transformation out. It feels like power scaling for storytelling, a type of Cinema Sins-esque warding off of plot holes. If we can fashion a logical precedent that means this controversial element could feasibly exist, it is therefore okay. But I don't think that's how it should be judged, and it's certainly not what I'm saying when I claim this transformation does nothing for me.

If we are to say that this is a direct connection to the Grand Elder's unlocking of potential, let's look at that example from a storytelling perspective. Yes, the Grand Elder can just put his hand on someone and, boom, instant power-up, which, taken in a vacuum, could be considered fairly underwhelming. But look at it as a piece of the story. The power-up is the reward that Gohan and Kuririn receive by risking their lives to save a Namekian child. It connects them to new characters, to allies who make it possible for them to ultimately use the Dragon Balls. Taking the journey to the Grand Elder is a risk and a danger, one that exposes them to Vegeta but at precisely the right time that he becomes a grudging ally rather than a harbinger of death. I certainly have my issues with the storytelling in The Freeza Arc, but this is an example of a thread being woven through the tapestry of the story. It exists as a consequence of previous actions, and it in turn has consequences of its own. It demonstrates the mettle of our characters.

By contrast, our heroes just kinda bump into Neva. He has magic that does things. And... he does them. I say all this knowing that it is still possible (although I wouldn't hold my breath) that all of this will be wrapped up in a satisfying way. I'd be thrilled to be in a position two weeks from now where I'm eating my words. But still... Neva powering up Goku is just a thing that happens. It doesn't really say anything about Goku. Goku doesn't earn anything. There's no real tension or risk. And the form is seemingly already gone without having accomplished anything. None of that has anything to do with whether it is conceivable that Neva could do this. It's not about whether the dreaded plot hole has been avoided. It's about whether this moment helps tell a satisfying story. And as of right now at least, it doesn't. It's just a thing that happens.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

If we are to say that this is a direct connection to the Grand Elder's unlocking of potential, let's look at that example from a storytelling perspective. Yes, the Grand Elder can just put his hand on someone and, boom, instant power-up, which, taken in a vacuum, could be considered fairly underwhelming. But look at it as a piece of the story. The power-up is the reward that Gohan and Kuririn receive by risking their lives to save a Namekian child. It connects them to new characters, to allies who make it possible for them to ultimately use the Dragon Balls. Taking the journey to the Grand Elder is a risk and a danger, one that exposes them to Vegeta but at precisely the right time that he becomes a grudging ally rather than a harbinger of death. I certainly have my issues with the storytelling in The Freeza Arc, but this is an example of a thread being woven through the tapestry of the story. It exists as a consequence of previous actions, and it in turn has consequences of its own. It demonstrates the mettle of our characters.

By contrast, our heroes just kinda bump into Neva. He has magic that does things. And... he does them. I say all this knowing that it is still possible (although I wouldn't hold my breath) that all of this will be wrapped up in a satisfying way. I'd be thrilled to be in a position two weeks from now where I'm eating my words. But still... Neva powering up Goku is just a thing that happens. It doesn't really say anything about Goku. Goku doesn't earn anything. There's no real tension or risk. And the form is seemingly already gone without having accomplished anything. None of that has anything to do with whether it is conceivable that Neva could do this. It's not about whether the dreaded plot hole has been avoided. It's about whether this moment helps tell a satisfying story. And as of right now at least, it doesn't. It's just a thing that happens.

A good number of fans defending this don't care about any of what you wrote, their logic is that anything Toriyama put out over the past decade was automatically good, and that anyone who doesn't see that is blinded by nostalgia.

[Cybersai]

You know for all the criticism here, this episode sure got people talking. This thread has over 400 replies, more than ANY Daima episode review thread up to this point. Second most was the Vegeta SSJ3 episode.

Say what you will, but new transformations ALWAYS cause the most discussion and excitement in the fandom. Especially when you include the likes of reddit, twitter, youtube, etc...people were going crazy over there when this ep aired and the SSJ3 Vegeta ep.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

This thread has over 400 replies, more than ANY Daima episode review thread up to this point. Second most was the Vegeta SSJ3 episode.

I would take Vegeta getting a powered up version of a form he already has (Ssj2 in Battle of Gods) that is built up properly and has an emotional pay off, over a new form like Ssj3 (and maybe 4) in Daima that's sole purpose is to get fans talking. It's such a shame that this fan base no longer cares about actual storytelling, instead settling for random transformations that have no weight behind them. I miss the days when a transformation actually meant something for the character's development and the progression of the story as a whole.

[DBZ Macky]

Someone remind me why Neva helped Gomah get the Earth's dragon balls but now he's firmly on Goku and co.'s side, even powering them up?

[Yuji]

Someone remind me why Neva helped Gomah get the Earth's dragon balls but now he's firmly on Goku and co.'s side, even powering them up?

Gomah offered Neva a bigger lifespan. From the episodes on the 2nd realm, he presumably wants the bigger lifespan to keep waiting for the Namekians to return. I assume he believes helping Goku & co overthrow a corrupt ruler may help with that.

Will be sad once the series is over and the status quo must be maintained of Namekians being U7 aliens, so Neva will remain alone in the 2nd demon world

[Cipher]

This is just something I've been musing on for the past few days. When people (myself included) say Goku's transformation didn't land with them, didn't feel connected to a story, or properly set up, I see the counter always being presented as, "Well, isn't Neva just doing the same thing that the Grand Elder does on Namek? So it is set up." But I feel that's missing the point. It's treating storytelling as this strictly quantifiable formula: Put one unit of setup in, get one unit of transformation out. It feels like power scaling for storytelling, a type of Cinema Sins-esque warding off of plot holes. If we can fashion a logical precedent that means this controversial element could feasibly exist, it is therefore okay. But I don't think that's how it should be judged, and it's certainly not what I'm saying when I claim this transformation does nothing for me.

If we are to say that this is a direct connection to the Grand Elder's unlocking of potential, let's look at that example from a storytelling perspective. Yes, the Grand Elder can just put his hand on someone and, boom, instant power-up, which, taken in a vacuum, could be considered fairly underwhelming. But look at it as a piece of the story. The power-up is the reward that Gohan and Kuririn receive by risking their lives to save a Namekian child. It connects them to new characters, to allies who make it possible for them to ultimately use the Dragon Balls. Taking the journey to the Grand Elder is a risk and a danger, one that exposes them to Vegeta but at precisely the right time that he becomes a grudging ally rather than a harbinger of death. I certainly have my issues with the storytelling in The Freeza Arc, but this is an example of a thread being woven through the tapestry of the story. It exists as a consequence of previous actions, and it in turn has consequences of its own. It demonstrates the mettle of our characters.

By contrast, our heroes just kinda bump into Neva. He has magic that does things. And... he does them. I say all this knowing that it is still possible (although I wouldn't hold my breath) that all of this will be wrapped up in a satisfying way. I'd be thrilled to be in a position two weeks from now where I'm eating my words. But still... Neva powering up Goku is just a thing that happens. It doesn't really say anything about Goku. Goku doesn't earn anything. There's no real tension or risk. And the form is seemingly already gone without having accomplished anything. None of that has anything to do with whether it is conceivable that Neva could do this. It's not about whether the dreaded plot hole has been avoided. It's about whether this moment helps tell a satisfying story. And as of right now at least, it doesn't. It's just a thing that happens.

I love the Namek arc to death, but I think you may be overselling the Elder power-up. It isn't a moment in and of itself, but a plot-facilitator. It gives Kuririn a reason to want to retrieve and bring back Gohan. It removes Vegeta's enormous power leverage over Gohan and Kuririn, and it allows the two of them to stay in line with the series' escalation despite lack of access to major training opportunities on Namek.

All of that is good, because it keeps the story moving and maintains tension. But it never gets paused on as some sort of cathartic reward.

I haven't seen the Daima SS4 yet, but as a climactic beat it occupies a completely different role from the Namekian Elder power-up, so I don't think they really bear comparison. As for Daima SS4, Dragon Ball has always done things just to be fun, and that includes its dramatic climax power-ups and transformations. However, prior to...exactly Super Hero, really, there was always some sort of twist on them and their role/use other than just delivering "the power-up," and self-referentially/reverently so in the case of Super Hero and this. That said, Super Hero gets by on being a short and snappily written light-hearted film. Daima has already overstayed its welcome with me, but maybe SS4 overcomes its hurdles in execution too. Idk yet.

But conceptually, both as an end-of-arc Goku boss-fight form and as a design homage, it doesn't feel fun or interesting, which are the only two things I ever ask DB be. Not saying it won't land, but it has those conceptual hurdles baked in to...overcome? And even Goku getting a new form and losing with it in the climax as now been done twice prior.

[SupremeKai25]

Never liked SS4 but just like what happened with Broly, this canon SS4 is growing on me.

I agree.

I detest the original SSJ4. Lazy and lame explanation (Goku literally just sitting around waiting for Elder Kaioshin to literally asspull the form from his butt, while Baby Vegeta is massacring Uub), and ugly design (the black hair looks terrible).

Toriyama's SSJ4 looks so much more unique and original. The explanation is perfectly logical, as there are powers in this world that can unlock the hidden potential within mortal fighters.

So what if Goku got SSJ4 instantly? Would it have been better if Goku sat on his ass watching an old man dancing for an entire day while his friends and family are getting massacred like Gohan in the Buu saga? In my opinion: NO. (funny how no one ever criticizes Ultimate Gohan but that's another matter entirely)

Also, Toriyama's SSJ4 has a genius gimmick to it as it's got larger hands so that it can move around on four limbs like a primate. I mean that's just genius design.

And I mean, have you looked at the magenta hair and eyes? So pretty. What a beautiful colour.

[super michael]

There is nothing lazy about SSJ4. Goku was grinding coffee, which somehow had something to do with Goku tail growing back. However since it was taking long, they decided to pull Goku tail out by force.

Goku thought with his tail out, that would mean he would be stronger, which he was wrong. Later Goku transformed into his Oozaru form and then his Super Oozaru form, which he went berserk. It wasn't until Pan helped Goku remember who he was, that he gained control of his Super Oozaru and focused his power to transform to SSJ4.


I like both Daima SSJ4 and GT SSJ4.

It looks like in Daima Neva was able to allow Goku to skip his Oozaru form and access his SSJ4 form, which is his Oozaru powers and SSJ. Goku made great use of his tail, being able to grab Gomah to dodge.

[DBZ Macky]

Someone remind me why Neva helped Gomah get the Earth's dragon balls but now he's firmly on Goku and co.'s side, even powering them up?

Gomah offered Neva a bigger lifespan. From the episodes on the 2nd realm, he presumably wants the bigger lifespan to keep waiting for the Namekians to return. I assume he believes helping Goku & co overthrow a corrupt ruler may help with that.

Will be sad once the series is over and the status quo must be maintained of Namekians being U7 aliens, so Neva will remain alone in the 2nd demon world

I can totally see there being no resolution to that plot point and Neva remaining alone, damn, that's kinda sad.

[Cipher]

I have now caught up.

I never want to hear anyone say the Granolah arc's back half is just characterless action-figures fighting again.

I don't know when the last time I was this unengaged during a DB climax was, if ever. For as much as Super (TV) could be frustrating, at least character beats were happening—even clumsy ones.

There's hardly even been any dialogue the last two episodes—it's been traded out for everyone ganging up on and being beaten back by Goma without a real thrust or narrative (even just in terms of action) to the fight, like a '90s DBZ movie. It's all beautifully animated, but there's just nothing happening to keep me engaged.

Daima's pacing is so weird. I like what it's doing with Goma as a semi-gag final villain after everyone wrote him off and got caught up in their own motivations—in theory. I'm fine with Goku getting a goofy extra transformation for the climax. I can so easily see how this would have worked as a snappy Toriyama short manga.

But it's paced so languidly—even in terms of beats like Goma's reveal, and even in terms of the fight. The nadir was probably the Vegeta vs. Special Squadron fight, which paced itself out of its own comedy, but it's been a consistent issue, especially when things needy to be happening and be really punchy for all this madcapness to work. And the madcapness is all this has, as there aren't any real character arcs around—less so than in all of Super's storylines, even.

Daima really needed to be half as long. It's amazing that it's paced like a weekly adaptation of its own manga that doesn't exist.

This wound up not even being about SS4, so much, because that almost feels neither here nor there. Make it a new design and my issue still stands that I'm just shockingly bored by the climax. Oh well.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Daima really needed to be half as long. It's amazing that it's paced like a weekly adaptation of its own manga that doesn't exist.

The biggest issue I have with Daima's pacing is that it spends a lot of time on nothingness, while rushing important plot points that desperately need time to build up and pay off. Vegeta's rage boost in Battle of Gods, which had the equivalent of 5 episodes worth of run time, was built up better and had a better pay off than this new Ssj4 in a 20 episode series.

[ZombieVito]

Never liked SS4 but just like what happened with Broly, this canon SS4 is growing on me.

I agree.

I detest the original SSJ4. Lazy and lame explanation (Goku literally just sitting around waiting for Elder Kaioshin to literally asspull the form from his butt, while Baby Vegeta is massacring Uub), and ugly design (the black hair looks terrible).

Toriyama's SSJ4 looks so much more unique and original. The explanation is perfectly logical, as there are powers in this world that can unlock the hidden potential within mortal fighters.

So what if Goku got SSJ4 instantly? Would it have been better if Goku sat on his ass watching an old man dancing for an entire day while his friends and family are getting massacred like Gohan in the Buu saga? In my opinion: NO. (funny how no one ever criticizes Ultimate Gohan but that's another matter entirely)

Also, Toriyama's SSJ4 has a genius gimmick to it as it's got larger hands so that it can move around on four limbs like a primate. I mean that's just genius design.

And I mean, have you looked at the magenta hair and eyes? So pretty. What a beautiful colour.

I was just talking about looks lol.

I couldn't care less how people get forms.

[JulieYBM]

The pacing really does have this weird issue where it feels like the series is afraid of adding in any little detail that Toriyama himself didn't specify in his notes, which is truly just not the way to make a television series. I really wish the series wasn't so deadset on trying to stick so religiously to Toriyama in that regard. You have an actual television writer working on the series, let her write!

[AliTheZombie13]

The pacing really does have this weird issue where it feels like the series is afraid of adding in any little detail that Toriyama himself didn't specify in his notes, which is truly just not the way to make a television series. I really wish the series wasn't so deadset on trying to stick so religiously to Toriyama in that regard. You have an actual television writer working on the series, let her write!

You know I'm not exactly the greatest fan of Toriyama ever, but how exactly do we know the things he did write and did not write for this show? For all we know, Toriyama could very well have written just the expo dumps and little bits of plot progression, while every other writer is responsible for the lack of anything in-between.

[JulieYBM]

The pacing really does have this weird issue where it feels like the series is afraid of adding in any little detail that Toriyama himself didn't specify in his notes, which is truly just not the way to make a television series. I really wish the series wasn't so deadset on trying to stick so religiously to Toriyama in that regard. You have an actual television writer working on the series, let her write!

You know I'm not exactly the greatest fan of Toriyama ever, but how exactly do we know the things he did write and did not write for this show? For all we know, Toriyama could very well have written just the expo dumps and little bits of plot progression, while every other writer is responsible for the lack of anything in-between.

Toriyama claims to have written the story for the series and I believe he also checked the scripts. The series' lack of structure within episodes and feeling like a single story stretched out extremely thinly also comes across as if it's meant to be one long script, rather than individual episodes contributing to an overall plot. Details that would feel unlike Toriyama would have also crept into the scripts more often.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Daima would've greatly benefited from being a movie instead, as the pacing would've been better and it would've made $$$ at the box office.

[Zephyr]

Daima's SS4 certainly lacks narrative poignancy, but I'd still be able to enjoy it despite that if it didn't look so bad aesthetically. And I say this as someone who likes the look of, frankly, most of DB's transformations, from Baby Vegeta and GT's SS4, to Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo.

There are only a couple of bad things about it, in my mind, and they are relatively small details. But they genuinely just bring the entire thing down.

1. The place where the fur ends on the forearms does not work with the wristbands also being there. Pick one.
2. The waistband instead of a belt. A belt (and one that is a different color than the pants) would look miles better.

[Yuji]

The pacing really does have this weird issue where it feels like the series is afraid of adding in any little detail that Toriyama himself didn't specify in his notes, which is truly just not the way to make a television series. I really wish the series wasn't so deadset on trying to stick so religiously to Toriyama in that regard. You have an actual television writer working on the series, let her write!

You put into words what I've been struggling to figure out, which is why this show feels so sterile and soulless despite its big emphasis on Toriyama's involvement. It does feel like they quite literally took Toriyama's notes and added nothing else to the episodes.

[LightBing]

Toriyama claims to have written the story for the series and I believe he also checked the scripts. The series' lack of structure within episodes and feeling like a single story stretched out extremely thinly also comes across as if it's meant to be one long script, rather than individual episodes contributing to an overall plot. Details that would feel unlike Toriyama would have also crept into the scripts more often.

I don't think Toriyama would have straight up copied story beats from GT like for example the Giants episode. That seems very much like details by those who suggested this trip down Gt's memory lane.

I doubt beyond lore, specific gags and general plot Toriyama contributed much.

The likely scenario is him writing something like: "they turn into kids and get weaker, gradually recovering their powers through various battles". The how and the when's not included.

The script writers either by orders or not wanting to deviate of Toriyama's nebulous writing did a piss poor job.
Toriyama supervision wouldn't help since he's accomplice of not making corrections, unless it's a silly gag. This from his editor-like role in the Super manga and how he just goes along with suggestions, not making all that many changes.