Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

I mean... QuakingStar is probably right. GT was really high on the "everyone but Goku is basically useless" trend. Goku in base was already matching someone he called "even stronger than Buu" back in the Baby Saga, after all.

[QuakingStar]

I mean... QuakingStar is probably right. GT was really high on the "everyone but Goku is basically useless" trend. Goku in base was already matching someone he called "even stronger than Buu" back in the Baby Saga, after all.

Thanks, and yeah and while it's murky on the exact Buu being talked about it would be either Kid Buu or Buuhan. Fat Buu was still there and was was not considered an enemy as he had been an ally since Kid Buu's defeat, and was not as strong as either of the other two Buu's mentioned to begin with.

[Hugo Boss]

and Nope, GT doesn't treat the Ultimate form as a state or a transformation. They just say he was a Super-Warrior, which when he shows up in S17 Saga he is a Super-Warrior again which we can see they are referring to his power and not a state or transformation. They simply didn't get to SHOW Gohan reaching that level again or give him a flashy entrance which is what they wanted to do.

You’re correct in noting that Dragon Ball GT doesn’t treat Ultimate Gohan as a distinct state or transformation, but the idea that GT simply failed to showcase a heroic moment or “flashy entrance” for Gohan doesn’t necessarily mean that Gohan regained his Ultimate power level. Without clear evidence in the show, it’s a speculative leap to suggest a “Super-Warrior” means GT Gohan regained his Ultimate power.

[QuakingStar]

and Nope, GT doesn't treat the Ultimate form as a state or a transformation. They just say he was a Super-Warrior, which when he shows up in S17 Saga he is a Super-Warrior again which we can see they are referring to his power and not a state or transformation. They simply didn't get to SHOW Gohan reaching that level again or give him a flashy entrance which is what they wanted to do.

You’re correct in noting that Dragon Ball GT doesn’t treat Ultimate Gohan as a distinct state or transformation, but the idea that GT simply failed to showcase a heroic moment or “flashy entrance” for Gohan doesn’t necessarily mean that Gohan regained his Ultimate power level. Without clear evidence in the show, it’s a speculative leap to suggest a “Super-Warrior” means GT Gohan regained his Ultimate power.

They are referring to Gohan at that level of power as a Super-Warrior, that's what they said he became when he faced Buu, and he became it again for the S17 Saga. It's just the power creep was so far ahead in GT by that point that his level of power from that time wasn't special at all anymore. Even going Super Saiyan on top of it made NO difference, both base Goku and base Vegeta had surpassed that Super-Warrior level of power by the S17 Saga.

Before the S17 Saga, SBV1 was said to be the strongest ki yet and we know Goku had already knew about Buuhan and WAS Vegito beforehand. It's simply power creep, which is also why in DBS 17 went from being weaker than Second Form Cell in DB, to being SSB tier about 10 years later.

[Hugo Boss]

“Super-Warrior” isn’t an official designation for any form or state in Dragon Ball GT, nor is it used in reference to Gohan’s Ultimate form in DBZ. What happened in GT is simply that Gohan continued to be involved as a fighter in certain arcs. It’s a term akin to “Super Hero” or “Z Fighter”.

Anyway, the idea that Ultimate Gohan’s level of power had been left behind due to power creep in GT is valid, with Baby Vegeta and Super 17 being good examples of that. However, there is no explicit statement in GT that base forms of Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Ultimate Gohan from DBZ — only that the characters have gotten stronger overall. Transformations like Super Saiyan 4 and fused forms were the real indicators of power creep.

[QuakingStar]

“Super-Warrior” isn’t an official designation for any form or state in Dragon Ball GT, nor is it used in reference to Gohan’s Ultimate form in DBZ. What happened in GT is simply that Gohan continued to be involved as a fighter in certain arcs. It’s a term akin to “Super Hero” or “Z Fighter”.

Anyway, the idea that Ultimate Gohan’s level of power had been left behind due to power creep in GT is valid, with Baby Vegeta and Super 17 being good examples of that. However, there is no explicit statement in GT that base forms of Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Ultimate Gohan from DBZ — only that the characters have gotten stronger overall. Transformations like Super Saiyan 4 and fused forms were the real indicators of power creep.

Disagree. Gohan was referred to as a Super-Warrior when facing Super Buu and GT doesn't refer to Ultimate as a Form nor State. It's simply a level of power Gohan had achieved in DBZ, and again in GT for the Super 17 Saga.

They wanted to show a training arc and a flashy entrance as the an explanation and showing that he had become THAT Super-Warrior again, but were not able to show it, and instead he just shows up as this Super-Warrior and that's that.

It's clearly just referring to Gohan when he was AT that level of power. Like I said, Goku and Vegeta by the time of the Super 17 Saga had either tied or surpassed that but considering that both Goku and Vegeta were still considered stronger than Gohan, they had surpassed it, even when all three use Super Saiyan both Vegeta and Goku are still stronger than Gohan. Power Creep is the answer.

[Thani]

I mean... QuakingStar is probably right. GT was really high on the "everyone but Goku is basically useless" trend. Goku in base was already matching someone he called "even stronger than Buu" back in the Baby Saga, after all.

Thanks, and yeah and while it's murky on the exact Buu being talked about it would be either Kid Buu or Buuhan. Fat Buu was still there and was was not considered an enemy as he had been an ally since Kid Buu's defeat, and was not as strong as either of the other two Buu's mentioned to begin with.

And honestly, it wouldn't really matter. Goku in base being as strong as Kid Buu would already be stupidly insane as it was. No wonder Ultimate Gohan wouldn't be relevant even if he got way stronger (by GT standards, not Super absurd ones) compared to that!

It seems that, when in regards to Dragon Ball, power creep is a hell of a drug. Every single writer uses it (From Tori to Toyo and Toei's writers), but few of them seem to use it wisely.

[Hugo Boss]

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough, but there is still a large misunderstanding about what is being communicated in that interview. The term “super-warrior” is simply a way to showcase Gohan’s return to battle, this doesn’t mean that “super-warrior” is some kind of defined state or power level in GT. Also, the commenter doesn’t imply that Gohan regained his “Ultimate” power that once surpassed Goku either; it only mentions that he returned to battle without much explanation. Don’t read too much into it.

[QuakingStar]

I mean... QuakingStar is probably right. GT was really high on the "everyone but Goku is basically useless" trend. Goku in base was already matching someone he called "even stronger than Buu" back in the Baby Saga, after all.

Thanks, and yeah and while it's murky on the exact Buu being talked about it would be either Kid Buu or Buuhan. Fat Buu was still there and was was not considered an enemy as he had been an ally since Kid Buu's defeat, and was not as strong as either of the other two Buu's mentioned to begin with.

And honestly, it wouldn't really matter. Goku in base being as strong as Kid Buu would already be stupidly insane as it was. No wonder Ultimate Gohan wouldn't be relevant even if he got way stronger (by GT standards, not Super absurd ones) compared to that!

It seems that, when in regards to Dragon Ball, power creep is a hell of a drug. Every single writer uses it (From Tori to Toyo and Toei's writers), but few of them seem to use it wisely.

Yeah, in the beginning of GT base Goku he tied a Kid Buu+ level opponent in base form and had only gotten far stronger than that as the series went on. Base Goku and Vegeta being stronger than Buu Saga level Ultimate Gohan in the S17 Saga isn't a shock to me considering the timeline and the powercreep.

[Hugo Boss]

If Base Goku in GT was comparable to Pure Boo, that wouldn’t necessarily make Ultimate Gohan irrelevant because Ultimate Gohan was already much stronger than Pure Boo during the Boo Saga. Therefore, if Goku’s base form in GT was supposedly only around Kid Boo’s level, Gohan should still be stronger, or at least highly relevant, if his strength remained anywhere near his DBZ levels.

[QuakingStar]

If Base Goku in GT was comparable to Pure Boo, that wouldn’t necessarily make Ultimate Gohan irrelevant because Ultimate Gohan was already much stronger than Pure Boo during the Boo Saga. Therefore, if Goku’s base form in GT was supposedly only around Kid Boo’s level, Gohan should still be stronger, or at least highly relevant, if his strength remained anywhere near his DBZ levels.

Base Goku was comparable to Pure Buu in the beginning of DBGT. He had gotten vastly stronger by the time of the S17 Saga.

[Hugo Boss]

By the time of the Super 17 arc, Goku has undoubtedly gotten stronger, but we see him primarily using Super Saiyan and higher forms to compete in later battles.

Besides, Ultimate Gohan was designed to greatly exceed Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Super Boo, who was far stronger than Pure Boo. Given his role during the Boo arc, surpassing Gohan would require a significant leap, and GT doesn’t explicitly show Base Goku making such a jump.

We also know that, in GT, Gohan isn’t really focused on fighting and has likely not trained as intensely, which would explain why he doesn’t shine as much during GT. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that Base Goku is now stronger than Ultimate Gohan from DBZ.

[QuakingStar]

By the time of the Super 17 arc, Goku has undoubtedly gotten stronger, but we see him primarily using Super Saiyan and higher forms to compete in later battles.

Besides, Ultimate Gohan was designed to greatly exceed Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Super Boo, who was far stronger than Pure Boo. Given his role during the Boo arc, surpassing Gohan would require a significant leap, and GT doesn’t explicitly show Base Goku making such a jump.

We also know that, in GT, Gohan isn’t really focused on fighting and has likely not trained as intensely, which would explain why he doesn’t shine as much during GT. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that Base Goku is now stronger than Ultimate Gohan from DBZ.

I've already explained why. Both of them have the same Super Saiyan, so Super Saiyan Goku being stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan makes it simple. Gohan did train and get back in shape, they just did not get the chance to SHOW that he did it. Like I said, Ultimate Gohan was just no longer special by the time the S17 Saga is around and both base Goku and base Vegeta are above it. Power Creep. You don't want to believe it? Good for you. Do what you want, but that interview and the context on it all is pretty clear for me.

[Hugo Boss]

I've already explained why. Both of them have the same Super Saiyan, so Super Saiyan Goku being stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan makes it simple. Gohan did train and get back in shape, they just did not get the chance to SHOW that he did it. Like I said, Ultimate Gohan was just no longer special by the time the S17 Saga is around and both base Goku and base Vegeta are above it. Power Creep. You don't want to believe it? Good for you. Do what you want, but that interview and the context on it all is pretty clear for me.

I understand what you said and honestly have no problem if you want to believe in the idea. It should only be pointed out this is a theory of yours, not an official source of information. The interview and the tv series don’t actually support it in the way you’re implying they did, that’s all. No need to continue this any further.

[QuakingStar]

I've already explained why. Both of them have the same Super Saiyan, so Super Saiyan Goku being stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan makes it simple. Gohan did train and get back in shape, they just did not get the chance to SHOW that he did it. Like I said, Ultimate Gohan was just no longer special by the time the S17 Saga is around and both base Goku and base Vegeta are above it. Power Creep. You don't want to believe it? Good for you. Do what you want, but that interview and the context on it all is pretty clear for me.

I understand what you said and honestly have no problem if you want to believe in the idea. It should only be pointed out this is a theory of yours, not an official source of information. The interview and the tv series don’t actually support it in the way you’re implying they did, that’s all. No need to continue this any further.

Well, simple as can be you're wrong and you can move on now.

[Yuji]

How powerful are Freeza's true and suppression forms compared to the current cast's forms and also DBZ measuring sticks? Both anime and manga if you think his power differs in both versions.

His true form is implied to be around SSG from BoG and his first form at least is stronger than RoF era SS Gohan and Piccolo.

[Thani]

How powerful are Freeza's true and suppression forms compared to the current cast's forms and also DBZ measuring sticks? Both anime and manga if you think his power differs in both versions.

His true form is implied to be around SSG from BoG and his first form at least is stronger than RoF era SS Gohan and Piccolo.

Well... it really depends. Freeza's true power can range from anywhere between SSG and "goes Golden just to defeat SS2 Cabba". It's as much of a mess as Goku's/Vegeta's base state.

In the manga it's slightly clearer: it's strong enough to fight evenly with a Super Saiyan much stronger than Namek Goku (SS Caulifla, in this case), so he's probably around current SS Goku and SS Vegeta.

In either case, his restricted forms are stronger than a rusty SS Gohan, which is weak, weak enough that he doesn't even know if he can turn into it. I'd say it would be about equal to maybe Namek SS Goku

So, basically, I'd say...

Anime: Who really knows, but stronger than Goku and Vegeta in Base. If SSG, clears pretty much all of Z. If weaker than SS2 Cabba, then he's basically between SS and SS2, like... Perfect Cell, maybe?

Manga: As strong as SS Goku and Vegeta, so probably strong enough to fight Perfect Cell.

[Hugo Boss]

Freeza’s power scaling in Dragon Ball Super is notoriously difficult to pin down, especially in the anime where fluctuations are frequent. In his suppressed form, Freeza is stronger than Resurrection of F era SS Gohan and Piccolo. Comparing him to Namek SS Goku isn’t entirely fair, though, since by Super, Freeza was likely far beyond any average Z-era Super Saiyan, even in his restrained state. While Gohan struggled to access Super Saiyan during the Resurrection of F arc, Piccolo consistently demonstrated significant growth over time and he was certainly far stronger than Namek SS Goku while at the same time not as strong as a “rusty” SS Gohan.

In the manga, Freeza’s power in his true form is more clearly defined, showing that he’s at least on par with Super Saiyans from Universe 6, such as Caulifla. The idea that his true form is around Battle of Gods SSG level is plausible enough too, especially since he battles closely with Goku, who had god-level strength in his base form by that point. However, Super’s inconsistencies, especially in the anime, make this hard to confirm as the focus often shifts toward spectacle over consistency.

Ultimately, I think you could say Freeza’s power in Super ranges from surpassing a “rusty” SS Gohan in his suppressed form to being a legitimate rival to the gods in his true form.

[ZombieVito]

How powerful are Freeza's true and suppression forms compared to the current cast's forms and also DBZ measuring sticks? Both anime and manga if you think his power differs in both versions.

His true form is implied to be around SSG from BoG and his first form at least is stronger than RoF era SS Gohan and Piccolo.

All we know about his 1st form is that he is stronger than a rusty Super Saiyan Gohan but weaker than Good Boo and DBZ Ultimate Gohan.

His true form is equal or slightly stronger than base Goku so he beats SS3 Gotenks and possibly the higher forms of Super Boo.

By the Tournament of Power, his true form is obviously in the Super Saiyan tier since he's stronger than Frost but weaker than SS2 Cabba so he beats even DBZ Super Saiyan Vegetto.

[DBZ Macky]

Why does DRAGON BALL: Sparking! ZERO treat Tenshinhan as if he's stronger than Krillin? Is it stupid?



I thought Krillin being the strongest Earthling was Word of God™ from Yamcha? What do you fellas think; who's stronger? Maybe Tenshinhan really doesn't count as an Earthling and the Third Eye stuff might become relevant in Daima.