Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

He finally learned to control his Berserk Super Saiyan form in the last chapter, he was at a disadvantage despite Gohan having already fought UI Goku and expending himself with his "power-up right until I reach the lose control point, and stop" trick. Whis and Goku then gave Gohan props saying he is unique. They did say that Gohan and Broly were similar BEFORE that though. So if anybody is surpassing Beerus in power it will be Gohan and Broly.

Broly’s mastery of his base Super Saiyan form in the manga doesn’t necessarily imply his unique Super Saiyan Full Power form is surpassed. In the movie, this form demonstrated a raw strength rivaling Gogeta, a feat far beyond what we’ve seen in his controlled Super Saiyan state in the manga. Broly hasn’t accessed Super Saiyan Full Power since the movie, so there’s no evidence his current control extends to that stage. Therefore, his strongest form still remains the berserk Full Power transformation, and that form still puts him in contention for surpassing Beerus.

Just as with Kale, in the manga there is no normal Super Saiyan for him. It's just one unique form that has two stages, one is slightly buff and the other is more buff. He is using the more buff stage vs Gohan, he got control of it but just like Gohan he has yet to master his form. Beerus is still above them all and that other statement for the Broly movie is outdated and clearly retconned.

[Hugo Boss]

He finally learned to control his Berserk Super Saiyan form in the last chapter, he was at a disadvantage despite Gohan having already fought UI Goku and expending himself with his "power-up right until I reach the lose control point, and stop" trick. Whis and Goku then gave Gohan props saying he is unique. They did say that Gohan and Broly were similar BEFORE that though. So if anybody is surpassing Beerus in power it will be Gohan and Broly.

Broly’s mastery of his base Super Saiyan form in the manga doesn’t necessarily imply his unique Super Saiyan Full Power form is surpassed. In the movie, this form demonstrated a raw strength rivaling Gogeta, a feat far beyond what we’ve seen in his controlled Super Saiyan state in the manga. Broly hasn’t accessed Super Saiyan Full Power since the movie, so there’s no evidence his current control extends to that stage. Therefore, his strongest form still remains the berserk Full Power transformation, and that form still puts him in contention for surpassing Beerus.

Just as with Kale, in the manga there is no normal Super Saiyan for him. It's just one unique form that has two stages, one is slightly buff and the other is more buff. He is using the more buff stage vs Gohan, he got control of it but just like Gohan he has yet to master his form. Beerus is still above them all and that other statement for the Broly movie is outdated and clearly retconned.

Beerus himself hints at Broly’s potential being far from fully realized. During the fight against Gohan, Beerus implies Broly only accessed Super Saiyan, suggesting he has yet to use the higher Super Saiyan Full Power form seen in the movie. This reinforces that his green haired Super Saiyan form remains his strongest iteration, and it’s still unclear if his current controlled version can fully harness that power.

[QuakingStar]

Broly’s mastery of his base Super Saiyan form in the manga doesn’t necessarily imply his unique Super Saiyan Full Power form is surpassed. In the movie, this form demonstrated a raw strength rivaling Gogeta, a feat far beyond what we’ve seen in his controlled Super Saiyan state in the manga. Broly hasn’t accessed Super Saiyan Full Power since the movie, so there’s no evidence his current control extends to that stage. Therefore, his strongest form still remains the berserk Full Power transformation, and that form still puts him in contention for surpassing Beerus.

Just as with Kale, in the manga there is no normal Super Saiyan for him. It's just one unique form that has two stages, one is slightly buff and the other is more buff. He is using the more buff stage vs Gohan, he got control of it but just like Gohan he has yet to master his form. Beerus is still above them all and that other statement for the Broly movie is outdated and clearly retconned.

Beerus himself hints at Broly’s potential being far from fully realized. During the fight against Gohan, Beerus implies Broly only accessed Super Saiyan, suggesting he has yet to use the higher Super Saiyan Full Power form seen in the movie. This reinforces that his green haired Super Saiyan form remains his strongest iteration, and it’s still unclear if his current controlled version can fully harness that power.

They literally called him and Kale just Super Saiyan in the manga when they transformed. The manga does not give a special name for the two different stages of their unique Super Saiyan form and in the manga his hair isn't Green when he is in his more buff form. Beerus was referring to him not having mastered his form depsite him gaining control over it. Gohan and Broly each have the potential to surpass Beerus, yes. But they are nowhere near it.

[Hugo Boss]

The manga indeed only showcased Broly and Kale as Super Saiyans, but that doesn’t override the explicit comparison between Broly and Beerus in the movie. Any way you see it, his comment during Broly’s fight with Gohan hints that Broly hasn’t yet accessed that same level of power from the movie. So while the manga avoids direct comparisons, it still supports the idea that Broly has untapped potential beyond his current controlled state. Perhaps he only needs more practice.

[QuakingStar]

In the manga I don't recall them ever saying Broly IS stronger than Beerus at his full power.
Also, both Gohan and Broly have yet to master their unique forms.. Gohan can only bring his up to right before he loses control then he has to stop and even that he hasn't done right as it drained him of stamina pretty fast.

[Saiyan007]

Spoiler:

After Daima's episode today i would say this is pretty accurate. If base Goku could survive for some time against Tamagashi it would seem he's a lot stronger than he lets on

[Hugo Boss]

In the manga I don't recall them ever saying Broly IS stronger than Beerus at his full power.

You’re correct that the manga doesn’t outright claim Broly is stronger than Beerus, but the comparison made in the movie still holds weight since the manga hasn’t contradicted it. In fact, the manga has largely avoided addressing this comparison directly, leaving the movie’s implication (Goku stating that Broly is “probably stronger than Beerus”) as valid in that continuity. So, while the manga highlights Broly’s potential, it leaves the movie’s comparison intact unless explicitly overridden, which hasn’t happened yet.

After Daima's episode today i would say this is pretty accurate. If base Goku could survive for some time against Tamagashi it would seem he's a lot stronger than he lets on

Goku starting the fight in his Base form against Tamagami No.3 seems like a deliberate strategy to adapt to the heavy air and study Tamagami’s fighting style. He only begins gaining ground after transforming into a Super Saiyan, which pushes Tamagami to escalate his own efforts. Without further context, such as how far Dabra challenged Tamagami No.3, we can’t be certain about the exact power scaling. It’s plausible Dabra gave him trouble at a level comparable to SS Goku but couldn’t handle his increasing intensity as Goku eventually did in his Super Saiyan 2 form.

[ankokudaishogun]

without any other input, we MUST take the movie as it was released as fully canon to the manga.
(that one single flashback image is far from being even remotely enough to dismiss it or suggest any relevant difference)

So Broly does posses a "Full Power" form even in the manga continuity.

Which fits the events: Broly had a lot of problems going Super Saiyan without going berserk, and getting to that stage was a grand accomplishment.
But Beerus downplays it, which would fit with Broly not having yet access to his... well, full power.

(my opinion is that Beeru's pure power has been surpassed by Broly, Gohan, UI and Fusions but he still has a ace in the hole)

as for the Tamagami fight: they state quite explicitly they weren't serious until after Goku goes SS1.
Which fits the fact the Tamagami is not a killer-machine: he's there to be an obstacle for those searching the Dragon Balls, not murder them willy-nilly.
So he Held Back, as did Goku.

[QuakingStar]

Beerus does have an ace in the hole. It's called Ultra Ego. He showed it to Vegeta and told Vegeta to copy it "Ultra Instinct isn't the only technique of the Gods" or something. So all this time Beerus hasn't shown anywhere near his true 100% and this is why even Black Frieza is still only approaching him, also no.. we see parts of Broly vs Goku, Vegeta, and Gogeta in the manga and his buffest stage of his unique SS is seen, he uses it again vs Gohan but manages to control himself. Most definitely there is more to it though as he has NOT mastered it, same with Gohan not mastering Beast yet. Now the Destroyer Tournament happened before UE was even thought of so it can't be said to have been in use then either.

Goku also made it pretty clear that UI Moro was the toughest enemy he had ever fought and that's pretty cut and dry, UI Moro was stronger than Broly.

[Almighty Majin]

The way I see it regarding Beerus' power at least in terms of narrative implication:

Suppressed Beerus = Super Saiyan God
Serious Beerus = Super Saiyan Blue
Full Power Beerus = UI/UE
Beerus (Hakai, UE, UI) = Basically unbeatable by mortals

Suppressed Beerus is what we saw in BoG.
Serious Beerus would be capable of fighting characters like Hit and Merged Zamasu.
Full Power Beerus can fight Jiren and Broly.
Hakai, Ultra Ego, and incomplete Ultra Instinct allow Beerus to effectively beat everyone else above that like Moro, Granolah, and Gas.

[ankokudaishogun]

If anything "Serious Beerus" would be the one requiring two Blue-class fighters to defeat, not just one.

Also: Hakai is just a technique, not a powerup.

And UI and UE seem incompatible from what we have been told: the first requires empty one's mind, the seconds requires filling one's mind only with destruction.

[Yuji]

I haven't played Legends extensively but I saw a cutscene today of fused warrior SSG Shallet fighting on even terms with SSBKK Goku.

To those who play the game, is this post-ToP Goku, and which multiplier of Kaioken is he using?

[Hugo Boss]

I haven't played Legends extensively but I saw a cutscene today of fused warrior SSG Shallet fighting on even terms with SSBKK Goku.

To those who play the game, is this post-ToP Goku, and which multiplier of Kaioken is he using?

SSG Shallet started stronger than SSBKK Goku, but Goku got stronger mid-fight as per usual. We don’t know how much stronger he got or the Kaioken multiplier, but it was implied both Saiyans were getting stronger until they stalemated.

[Mystic-han]

The manga indeed only showcased Broly and Kale as Super Saiyans, but that doesn’t override the explicit comparison between Broly and Beerus in the movie. Any way you see it, his comment during Broly’s fight with Gohan hints that Broly hasn’t yet accessed that same level of power from the movie. So while the manga avoids direct comparisons, it still supports the idea that Broly has untapped potential beyond his current controlled state. Perhaps he only needs more practice.

You actually still believe Goku was accurate? The same Goku who thought SSG/SSB/ssbkk was enough for Beerus? The one who directly called Gas the strongest in the universe while still looking at Beerus strength with awe

[Hugo Boss]

The manga indeed only showcased Broly and Kale as Super Saiyans, but that doesn’t override the explicit comparison between Broly and Beerus in the movie. Any way you see it, his comment during Broly’s fight with Gohan hints that Broly hasn’t yet accessed that same level of power from the movie. So while the manga avoids direct comparisons, it still supports the idea that Broly has untapped potential beyond his current controlled state. Perhaps he only needs more practice.

You actually still believe Goku was accurate? The same Goku who thought SSG/SSB/ssbkk was enough for Beerus? The one who directly called Gas the strongest in the universe while still looking at Beerus strength with awe

Goku’s assessments have indeed been inconsistent in the TV series, but his comparison of Broly to Beerus in the movie carries more weight due to its context. Unlike his earlier guesses, the Broly movie showed Goku reflecting on Broly’s true potential rather than making a definitive claim, leaving room for interpretation that Broly could reach or surpass Beerus-level strength with proper mastery, which is expanded on the manga. Up until chapter #103, it’s implied he made progress but still not quite mastered his full strength. At least not like Gohan did. This may be explored when the manga returns in 2025.

[Mystic-han]

The manga indeed only showcased Broly and Kale as Super Saiyans, but that doesn’t override the explicit comparison between Broly and Beerus in the movie. Any way you see it, his comment during Broly’s fight with Gohan hints that Broly hasn’t yet accessed that same level of power from the movie. So while the manga avoids direct comparisons, it still supports the idea that Broly has untapped potential beyond his current controlled state. Perhaps he only needs more practice.

You actually still believe Goku was accurate? The same Goku who thought SSG/SSB/ssbkk was enough for Beerus? The one who directly called Gas the strongest in the universe while still looking at Beerus strength with awe

Goku’s assessments have indeed been inconsistent in the TV series, but his comparison of Broly to Beerus in the movie carries more weight due to its context. Unlike his earlier guesses, the Broly movie showed Goku reflecting on Broly’s true potential rather than making a definitive claim, leaving room for interpretation that Broly could reach or surpass Beerus-level strength with proper mastery, which is expanded on the manga. Up until chapter #103, it’s implied he made progress but still not quite mastered his full strength. At least not like Gohan did. This may be explored when the manga returns in 2025.

But why? Why would we take this Statement at face value?

And saying "it's Movie!!!!" Mean no shit , Remember BoG how he thought he stood a chance against Beerus? Or RoF where Both him and Vegeta were said to be capable of taking on Beerus?

Please bro use your mind abit

This is just a Stupid throw in line to hype Broly up that got completely ignored in the following arcs

You use the Gohan vs Broly here , yet completely gloss over the whole narrative about Controlling Berserk power lead to huge power ups

But let's use your logic

Are you telling me that Goku and Vegeta just stood there watching Broly going berserk on gohan without doing anything to help him?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Something else to note with Broly is that he has remained a measuring stick in most recent Toriyama-associated media recently, namely the Super Hero movie which is the latest thing in the timeline before End of Z currently.

[Mystic-han]

Beerus does have an ace in the hole. It's called Ultra Ego. He showed it to Vegeta and told Vegeta to copy it "Ultra Instinct isn't the only technique of the Gods" or something. So all this time Beerus hasn't shown anywhere near his true 100% and this is why even Black Frieza is still only approaching him, also no.. we see parts of Broly vs Goku, Vegeta, and Gogeta in the manga and his buffest stage of his unique SS is seen, he uses it again vs Gohan but manages to control himself. Most definitely there is more to it though as he has NOT mastered it, same with Gohan not mastering Beast yet. Now the Destroyer Tournament happened before UE was even thought of so it can't be said to have been in use then either.

Goku also made it pretty clear that UI Moro was the toughest enemy he had ever fought and that's pretty cut and dry, UI Moro was stronger than Broly.

Don't bother yourself with him

Using his logic , BoG Goku is still 70% of Beerus power because "it was said in the movie"

[QuakingStar]

Gohan did not master his Beast form, it's the whole reason he can only power up right until he goes Berserk. Secondly, Broly IS using his Berserk Super Saiyan state at the buffest level, he has just controlled it but he has not mastered it which shows both he and Gohan still have a a ways to go before they can master their forms. Broly being stronger than Beerus was not restated in the DBS Super Hero movie supplementary material as far as I recall and it was not stated in the movie either, nor the chapters covering it.

@Mystic-han Yeah you're right, Broly being stronger than Beerus stopped being a thing awhile ago.
They also keep pretending Broly has a simple normal Super Saiyan form just like Goku and Vegeta, when it was shown and made clear his unique Super Saiyan has two stages just like Kale and that Broly is USING the second stage in chapter 103, he just managed to control it, though like Gohan with Beast, he had not mastered it.

[Mystic-han]

Something else to note with Broly is that he has remained a measuring stick in most recent Toriyama-associated media recently, namely the Super Hero movie which is the latest thing in the timeline before End of Z currently.

So was Jiren and Ribarana and other TOP fodders

The manga make this argument worse as it bring up old antiagonist who were already defeated and surpassed by Goku himself