Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What's the lowest form we think Goku could use to beat ToP Jiren

- Now
- Right after Black Freeza appeared

?

TUI should do it. It doesn't seem to be much weaker than Silver UI at full power.

[Koitsukai]

I would also think TUI would get the job done. I mean, it put Gas to shame. Jiren outlasted an unstable UI, how could that compare to a FP Gas that fought UE and UI at the same time? I can see UI not being as strong as it should, vs Gas, but it should still be above ToP UI.

I can accept the wish not taking Broly into account because he can't access his FP or whatever, but Moro arc Goku already had a power that should defeat Jiren. Gas should stand above the Moro arc and so should TUI.

I don't see Moro arc Sign or any Blue forms touching Jiren, though.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I would also think TUI would get the job done. I mean, it put Gas to shame. Jiren outlasted an unstable UI, how could that compare to a FP Gas that fought UE and UI at the same time? I can see UI not being as strong as it should, vs Gas, but it should still be above ToP UI.

I can accept the wish not taking Broly into account because he can't access his FP or whatever, but Moro arc Goku already had a power that should defeat Jiren. Gas should stand above the Moro arc and so should TUI.

I don't see Moro arc Sign or any Blue forms touching Jiren, though.

So UI (Cereal) > TUI ~ Gas > Granola > UI (Moro)?

[picc]

So how strong was Gas arc Blue Goku?

Between the Moro arc and the Granolah/Gas arc, Goku's stated and seen to be extraordinarily stronger in Blue than he was in the ToP.

How strong do we think the Granolah clone was?

[QuakingStar]

After thinking back on it and looking at the chapters again, Goku and Vegeta made massive leaps in power for the Moro Arc and got stronger than that for the Granolah Arc. Angel Moro was stronger than LSS Broly. Granolah and Gas were stronger than Angel Moro. It's pretty clear in the manga. ToP Jiiren would have lost to the UI Sign Goku who fought Moro pretty handily.

[picc]

After thinking back on it and looking at the chapters again, Goku and Vegeta made massive leaps in power for the Moro Arc and got stronger than that for the Granolah Arc. Angel Moro was stronger than LSS Broly. Granolah and Gas were stronger than Angel Moro. It's pretty clear in the manga. ToP Jiiren would have lost to the UI Sign Goku who fought Moro pretty handily.

This is my feeling as well. I think any UI from Granolah saga would be overkill.

I'm usually very conservative on power level estimates but too much lip service is given to Goku's improvements, and the people he fights in lower forms are heavyweights. And narratively, it doesn't make sense for Goku to be fighting villains who are weaker than the villain he defeated two arcs ago. That's just not how fiction typically works. And Dragonball has certainly not given us reason to think it would alter course. AT has been very consistent with this.

For instance, Vegeta's SSBE was able to fight and defend against full power Granolah, who is MUCH stronger than Jiren was. It sounds crazy to say Vegeta could beat Jiren with just a SSJ form, but logically he would beat him like a red-headed step child by the time he achieved UE.

I think we reflexively push back against lower forms surpassing someone as monumental as Jiren, because it just feels wrong. But that's exactly what's happened.

I'm still not convinced SSJB UI Goku from the end of the Gas arc wouldn't be a match for at least regular Jiren. Gas hadn't lost a lot of power by the time he fought Goku during the planet leaps. And Goku should have grown in power during those battles anyway, as the Saiyans typically do. See, Vegeta being stronger at the end of the Granolah fight than he was at the start of it.

The leaps these guys made were astronomical. I think TUI or MUI smokes Jiren extremely easily. If SSJB UI wouldn't the trick, UI Sign should. Especially by now.

[Yuji]

After thinking back on it and looking at the chapters again, Goku and Vegeta made massive leaps in power for the Moro Arc and got stronger than that for the Granolah Arc. Angel Moro was stronger than LSS Broly. Granolah and Gas were stronger than Angel Moro. It's pretty clear in the manga. ToP Jiiren would have lost to the UI Sign Goku who fought Moro pretty handily.

This is my feeling as well. I think any UI from Granolah saga would be overkill.

I'm usually very conservative on power level estimates but too much lip service is given to Goku's improvements, and the people he fights in lower forms are heavyweights. And narratively, it doesn't make sense for Goku to be fighting villains who are weaker than the villain he defeated two arcs ago. That's just not how fiction typically works. And Dragonball has certainly not given us reason to think it would alter course. AT has been very consistent with this.

For instance, Vegeta's SSBE was able to fight and defend against full power Granolah, who is MUCH stronger than Jiren was. It sounds crazy to say Vegeta could beat Jiren with just a SSJ form, but logically he would beat him like a red-headed step child by the time he achieved UE.

I think we reflexively push back against lower forms surpassing someone as monumental as Jiren, because it just feels wrong. But that's exactly what's happened.

I'm still not convinced SSJB UI Goku from the end of the Gas arc wouldn't be a match for at least regular Jiren. Gas hadn't lost a lot of power by the time he fought Goku during the planet leaps. And Goku should have grown in power during those battles anyway, as the Saiyans typically do. See, Vegeta being stronger at the end of the Granolah fight than he was at the start of it.

The leaps these guys made were astronomical. I think TUI or MUI smokes Jiren extremely easily. If SSJB UI wouldn't the trick, UI Sign should. Especially by now.

I don't think anyone was reluctant to think Jiren was surpassed easily until Superhero. All thematic and narrative implications point toward Jiren still being a worthy opponent on par with Goku and Vegeta as of the recent arc, so whether we like it or not, they won't be able to defeat him using anything less than their strongest form.

Also, UI Sign did nothing against 73 Moro, which was the one Goku said was the strongest opponent he'd faced. It was somewhat even only with prime Moro, who didn't receive the same praise. There's nothing to indicate Sign in the Moro arc is stronger than ToP MUI.

In the Granolah arc, Goku can't use MUI to its full power until he summons the Ki avatar at the end - this is stated. And the next arc confirms MUI is still his strongest, not TUI. I think there's an argument for Granolah arc TUI vs Jiren, but not regular Sign from the Moro arc, no way. Whether you think TUI and Sign are the same thing, that's a separate issue.

Also SSBE Vegeta doing well against Granolah is not indicative of anything. Blue Goku also does well vs Gas. Gamma 2 damages Cell Max severely. Sometimes for the sake of the plot Blue-tier opponents do a good job vs MUI tier characters. We know there's over a dozen times difference between MUI and Blue, so realistically using Z scaling, they'd be one shot. In Super, you can bridge a very considerable gap with skill, techniques, teamwork and stamina.

[Koitsukai]

What happened with SSB vs Gas and Granola, clearly perfoming above its level, to me is due to the expertise and skill of the users vs. the lack of experience of the villains. Powerwise, the difference should be great but that gap is shortened because of the difference in talent.

I compare this to videogame competitions. The greatest FIFA player probably can use the weakest team in the game and beat me playing with Real Madrid. Probably, after a couple of matches, I'll get the hang of it and beat him just because my players are better than his. But on even terms, I would get crushed. And so would anybody that plays against Real Madrid using the weakest team, and isn't a master.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Either Vegeta or Granola said that Vegeta's power was increasing while he was still in SSJBE. I always thought the form got a massive boost there, probably becoming on par with UI Sign (If it wasn't already).

[Hugo Boss]

So how strong was Gas arc Blue Goku?

Between the Moro arc and the Granolah/Gas arc, Goku's stated and seen to be extraordinarily stronger in Blue than he was in the ToP.

How strong do we think the Granolah clone was?

It’s unclear if Granolah arc Blue Goku exceeds Ultra Instinct Sign from the ToP, but he should be leagues beyond his ToP Blue form.

As for Granolah’s clone, it was stated to have half the original’s full strength. This puts it in a tier where it could overwhelm Blue Goku and Vegeta but still falls short of their ultra forms in this arc.

By the way, Ultra Instinct Sign is not the exactly the same thing as True Ultra Instinct, as they operate with different mind states, despite their look being similar. This draft perfectly sums up the subject.

Spoiler:

For comparison sake, Jiren barely defeated the silver Ultra Instinct that was dropping in accuracy. So, there is an argument to be had if Goku can’t already win with that version by Granolah arc. UI Sign doesn’t make the cut for me, though.

[QuakingStar]

So how strong was Gas arc Blue Goku?

Between the Moro arc and the Granolah/Gas arc, Goku's stated and seen to be extraordinarily stronger in Blue than he was in the ToP.

How strong do we think the Granolah clone was?

It’s unclear if Granolah arc Blue Goku exceeds Ultra Instinct Sign from the ToP, but he should be leagues beyond his ToP Blue form.

As for Granolah’s clone, it was stated to have half the original’s full strength. This puts it in a tier where it could overwhelm Blue Goku and Vegeta but still falls short of their ultra forms in this arc.

By the way, Ultra Instinct Sign is not the exactly the same thing as True Ultra Instinct, as they operate with different mind states, despite their look being similar. This draft perfectly sums up the subject.

Spoiler:

For comparison sake, Jiren barely defeated the silver Ultra Instinct that was dropping in accuracy. So, there is an argument to be had if Goku can’t already win with that version by Granolah arc. UI Sign doesn’t make the cut for me, though.

It wasn't just that UI might have been dropping in accuracy, Whis pointed out that Jiren literally caught up to UI Goku in the midst of battle and outlasted him, and attributed it to his immeasurable potential. This is also why I say that the next time they see Jiren he will yet again be a monster, he is always training anyway.

[picc]

=
I don't think anyone was reluctant to think Jiren was surpassed easily until Superhero. All thematic and narrative implications point toward Jiren still being a worthy opponent on par with Goku and Vegeta as of the recent arc, so whether we like it or not, they won't be able to defeat him using anything less than their strongest form.

Also, UI Sign did nothing against 73 Moro, which was the one Goku said was the strongest opponent he'd faced. It was somewhat even only with prime Moro, who didn't receive the same praise. There's nothing to indicate Sign in the Moro arc is stronger than ToP MUI.

In the Granolah arc, Goku can't use MUI to its full power until he summons the Ki avatar at the end - this is stated. And the next arc confirms MUI is still his strongest, not TUI. I think there's an argument for Granolah arc TUI vs Jiren, but not regular Sign from the Moro arc, no way. Whether you think TUI and Sign are the same thing, that's a separate issue.

This is a fair take.

Also SSBE Vegeta doing well against Granolah is not indicative of anything. Blue Goku also does well vs Gas. Gamma 2 damages Cell Max severely. Sometimes for the sake of the plot Blue-tier opponents do a good job vs MUI tier characters. We know there's over a dozen times difference between MUI and Blue, so realistically using Z scaling, they'd be one shot. In Super, you can bridge a very considerable gap with skill, techniques, teamwork and stamina.

This is not.

You reference Gamma 2 vs Cell Max, but G2 used a one-time, charged up suicide attack, which DB has established as allowing characters to operate far far above their weight class. See: Majin Vegeta vs Buu, Tenshinhan vs Cell, Super Vegeta's Final Flash, etc. So referencing Gamma makes me feel like you're just looking for reasons to downgrade SSBE.

SSBE Vegeta vs Granolah was an extended, one on one battle. Very different. Yes, Granolah was inexperienced. Yes, Vegeta was on the losing end. But the power difference would have been far too vast to neutralize with Vegeta was below Jiren level and Granolah was as far above Jiren as we know he was. ie. orders of magnitude.

You can bridge a gap with the things you mentioned, but not in an extended, long one on one brawl with no deux ex machina. And I challenge you to produce another example of it.

*Btw, I'm referencing normal Jiren here, not limitbreaker Jiren

[picc]

What happened with SSB vs Gas and Granola, clearly perfoming above its level, to me is due to the expertise and skill of the users vs. the lack of experience of the villains. Powerwise, the difference should be great but that gap is shortened because of the difference in talent.

Again, not with a one on one fight. Where else has that happened? Granolah dwarfed Jiren in power. That kind of power gap, you can accidentally kill someone you're fighting. Dragonball has well established that huge power gaps are insurmountable without special techniques or deux ex machina.

Further, consider that:

1) In the Moro arc, Vegeta's SSBE had already basically caught up to Goku's UI Sign, which was also far stronger than it was during the ToP.
2) Vegeta improved even more after training with Beerus while Goku was training with Whis
3) Then, Vegeta's stated to gotten "far stronger" while fighting Granolah

When we have all of these facts, and we see Vegeta not just fighting well against Granolah, but easily taking big hits from him (and Granolah was going for the kill), what reason do I have to believe Vegeta was really still whole arcs below Granolah? C'mon guys. It doesn't make sense.

*Btw, I'm referencing normal Jiren here, not limitbreaker Jiren

[picc]

So how strong was Gas arc Blue Goku?

Between the Moro arc and the Granolah/Gas arc, Goku's stated and seen to be extraordinarily stronger in Blue than he was in the ToP.

How strong do we think the Granolah clone was?

It’s unclear if Granolah arc Blue Goku exceeds Ultra Instinct Sign from the ToP, but he should be leagues beyond his ToP Blue form.

As for Granolah’s clone, it was stated to have half the original’s full strength. This puts it in a tier where it could overwhelm Blue Goku and Vegeta but still falls short of their ultra forms in this arc.

By the way, Ultra Instinct Sign is not the exactly the same thing as True Ultra Instinct, as they operate with different mind states, despite their look being similar. This draft perfectly sums up the subject.

Spoiler:

For comparison sake, Jiren barely defeated the silver Ultra Instinct that was dropping in accuracy. So, there is an argument to be had if Goku can’t already win with that version by Granolah arc. UI Sign doesn’t make the cut for me, though.

Definitely. Everything is unclear, which is why we argue so much. But I ask you to theorize teleporting UI Sign Goku from the ToP, and putting him in place of Goku as he fought Gas planet to planet.

How much different do you think it looks? Because I have no reason to be certain he looks better. If anything, continuity would suggest he'd look worse. So I feel I'm being conservative with this estimating to begin with.

[Hugo Boss]

Adding Ultra Instinct to Goku’s Blue form in the Gas Arc likely makes it more competitive with ToP UI Sign Goku, but I doubt it surpasses it. Blue Goku gains a lot from integrating Ultra Instinct principles, but UI Sign and SSBE in the ToP were a significant leap.

For instance, in his base form, Goku is shown to fight side by side with SS Vegeta when he activates Ultra Instinct, but SS Vegeta still performed better. So, it could be a similar case with Blue Goku in relation to SSBE Vegeta. Since SSBE rivals UI Sign in power, I guess you could say Blue Goku ultimately falls short to both. But if ToP UI Sign Goku replaced Gas Arc Blue Goku, I think maybe he’d perform about the same overall? It depends on how much better you believe he got since then, which we don’t have any evidence for yet.

[Yuji]

You can bridge a gap with the things you mentioned, but not in an extended, long one on one brawl with no deux ex machina. And I challenge you to produce another example of it.

In Super? There is plenty. In the same arc, we see Goku holding off Gas using Blue. At least in the anime SSBE is 20x Blue, in the manga likely more as it's been likened to Sign.

[picc]

Adding Ultra Instinct to Goku’s Blue form in the Gas Arc likely makes it more competitive with ToP UI Sign Goku, but I doubt it surpasses it. Blue Goku gains a lot from integrating Ultra Instinct principles, but UI Sign and SSBE in the ToP were a significant leap.

Yes, they were a significant leap. But we are a long, long ways away from the ToP. And Goku's blue form has gone through monumental leaps in power from that point, to the point he fought Gas. Significant leaps, to be exact.

Also consider that, like Vegeta vs Granolah, Goku almost certainly increased his power during the Granolah/Gas arc battles as well, as the saiyans tend to do quite frequently. Adding another power leap to the already numerous ones he'd made since the tournament.

I think its fairly obvious he reached ToP sign level in blue by the Gas arc. Adding UI to it...

I just don't see a logical argument against it that's not simply reaction to the blasphemy of a SS form reaching a godly level. Which I understand. But I'm not going to dismiss that in the same universe that Android 17 reached SSJ3 level while rounding up bandits on an island, and Piccolo matched 2nd form Freeza after merging with a 42k power level.

These guys make "significant leaps" routinely, and with almost no explanation, all the time. Here, we actually are afforded the luxury of an explanation (Whis training; Merus training + ROSAT; Saiyan power creep).

It seems needlessly inflexible not to take it.

[picc]

You can bridge a gap with the things you mentioned, but not in an extended, long one on one brawl with no deux ex machina. And I challenge you to produce another example of it.

In Super? There is plenty. In the same arc, we see Goku holding off Gas using Blue.

The battles are not the same. Vegeta was attacking and engaging Granolah in melee, in addition to defending and absorbing heavy attacks. By the end of the fight, he was doing so casually, with a grin on his face.

By contrast, Goku was 100% defensive vs Gas, retreating the entire fight, under heavy duress, and fleeing the scene when possible. Then remarking that he wouldn't last much longer.

What Vegeta did was impossible to do against someone orders of magnitude more powerful than you. What Goku did? You can make the argument.

Then we have Vegeta saying he's "gotten more and more powerful" as the fight's gone on, with Granolah agreeing and then trying to finish him off. From a narrative POV, what's the point of including this exchange if all it resulted in was Vegeta still being orders of magnitude weaker than Granolah? What would it matter?

I ask you guys to exercise narrative rationale when analyzing these things. Often the writer is just trying to get a simple point across, and its up to us to complicate it. But we don't have to.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

From a narrative POV, what's the point of including this exchange if all it resulted in was Vegeta still being orders of magnitude weaker than Granolah? What would it matter?

I ask you guys to exercise narrative rationale when analyzing these things. Often the writer is just trying to get a simple point across, and its up to us to complicate us. But we don't have to.

Vegeta powering up was sort of a prelude to Ultra Ego, but he still needed to transform to fully be up there. That’s the simple point the writers wanted to get across.

As for Granolah’s clone, it was stated to have half the original’s full strength.

When was that stated?

[picc]

From a narrative POV, what's the point of including this exchange if all it resulted in was Vegeta still being orders of magnitude weaker than Granolah? What would it matter?

I ask you guys to exercise narrative rationale when analyzing these things. Often the writer is just trying to get a simple point across, and its up to us to complicate us. But we don't have to.

Vegeta powering up was sort of a prelude to Ultra Ego, but he still needed to transform to fully be up there. That’s the simple point the writers wanted to get across.

Yes, he needed to transform to reach Granolah's level. But I'm not saying SSBE was Granolah level. The argument presented was that SSBE was still below Jiren level by the time Vegeta reached UE.

I'm saying that, logically, illustratively, and narratively, that makes no sense given what we see on the page and what is said by the characters. And that SSBE wasn't as powerful as Granolah, obviously, but it was closer to Granolah than it was to ToP Jiren.