"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

Proposition: Would this arc be more powerful if the last time we saw Freeza was the Tournament of Power? This arc leans heavily on building up a mystery surrounding Freeza and his presumed eventual appearance, but considering that we've seen him and his fledgling empire already in Super: Broly and even a brief cameo in the Moro arc, we have a frame of reference that Freeza probably hasn't changed significantly since those arcs. Of course, there's every possibility that there is no build up for any significant change (whether that be some new transformation, his army growing in numbers or something different entirely), but it feels like the arc is withholding Freeza for some big reveal. Maybe if we didn't see Freeza at all after Zeno's toybox game, the suspense of wondering what Freeza's been up to since then would be more compelling.

It doesn't help that Freeza -- and this isn't necessarily a criticism -- was treated as a bit of a joke in Broly. Is it too late to rebuild his fearsome reputation?

It doesn’t feel at all to me like the arc has intentionally been withholding Freeza for mystery—it just hasn’t had reason or space to include him yet. Granolah and the Heatas are motivated by his return, but the conflict has been entirely centralized to them and Goku and Vegeta.

So I don’t necessarily feel it’s at odds with Freeza’s role in the film or brief appearance in the Moro arc at all. I don’t think it’s promising anything that would make that the case.

If anything, I think a potential gag might be that Freeza goes unaware of the events of the arc despite instigating them (just by existing), which would certainly be in the series’ wheelhouse, although I know many fans wouldn’t take to it.

[ZodiacBeast]

Frieza could stay out of this arc...because he's gathering his strength and preparing for the next arc.

[Xeogran]

Frieza could stay out of this arc...because he's gathering his strength and preparing for the next arc.

This is the perfect arc for him to appear though. All sides of conflict are related to him. Would be a shame to get this wasted, especially the potential Elec and Frieza mind games we can get.

[Jack Bz]

So, there's a new interview with Toyotaro and he says some interesting things.

• The concept of Granolah was Toyo's idea, with a story fleshed out slightly with Uchida, which was then given to Toriyama.

• Toriyama made it "100 times better" and fleshed it out into a finished story. He added the Heeters, as well as Monaito and the new Dragon Balls, and that the Namekians weren't born on planet namek (Toyo says he feels like someone in his position isn't really free to propose ideas like that)

• Granolah was designed with somewhat of a steampunk feel, meant to feel old fashioned since these are clothes from decades ago when his race went extinct

• Oatmeel is brought up as a solution for having characters introduced as a pair, as otherwise it's hard to know what characters are thinking.

• Oatmeel will "come into play" later.

• The Heeter's designs were rejected 3 or 4 times by Toriyama before being finalised.

• Toyo tried to design the Sugarians but Toriyama ended up designing them.

• Goku in the Moro arc was "kind of perfect", so Toyo had to show that there's "a level of perfection beyond perfect"

• VERY confusingly, Broly is brought up and shown via image as an example of where Goku has room to grow, but it's not Toyo who brings him up. Toyo only brings up Whis, Beerus, and the Grand Priest (and also mentions that Goku/Vegeta/Granolah are the 3 strongest in the universe).

• Toyo doesn't answer the question about who is stronger between Goku and Vegeta

[caire]

• Oatmeel is brought up as a solution for having characters introduced as a pair, as otherwise it's hard to know what characters are thinking.

• Oatmeel will "come into play" later.

Honestly I am unreasonably excited to see who/what Oatmeel is, and the role they play (even if it is an AI). I like their dynamic with Granola a lot and they seem to be the "voice of reason" in this arc, so far. And although they've been introduced as this mysterious character, it's been done in quite a subtle manner - it's not being shoved in our faces, Oatmeel just kind of exists on the periphery and occasionally chimes in with some assistance. It feels kind of weird to say this since we've barely heard from them, but I feel like Oatmeel could be a really great character once they're more fleshed out later on.

[LightBing]

So the process is: Toyotarõ comes up with the villain, him and his editor come up with a story, finally it's sent to Toriyama.

Too many obstacles for it to be anything more than average, unless Toriyama completely takes over...

First Toyotarõ doesn't feel like he can take any major decisions, like create a new set of Dragon Balls. This is a huge roadblock, tip-toeing your own ideas seems counter-productive.

Then the editor screening, I'm assuming the editor like many others holds back certain concepts. I bet if Toyotarõ came up with Mr.Boo, for example, it would be shot down "not cool enough".

Looking at the Toriyama intervention, it seems essential to keep the story interesting. He came up with the Heeters and has insight like pointing out how Ceruleans aren't a warrior race.
Of course he might have bad ideas and since he's Toriyama nobody says no. But I doubt that's into play a lot.

It clear there's no planning. The only progress is Vegeta and Goku getting stronger, which is only holding up for me with their current branching paths and not being straight power ups.

Current Dragon Ball is going nowhere. Hopefully the new movie jumps ahead of EoZ, we need a shake up and goals.

[PurestEvil]

So the process is: Toyotarõ comes up with the villain, him and his editor come up with a story, finally it's sent to Toriyama.

Too many obstacles for it to be anything more than average, unless Toriyama completely takes over...

First Toyotarõ doesn't feel like he can take any major decisions, like create a new set of Dragon Balls. This is a huge roadblock, tip-toeing your own ideas seems counter-productive.

Then the editor screening, I'm assuming the editor like many others holds back certain concepts. I bet if Toyotarõ came up with Mr.Boo, for example, it would be shot down "not cool enough".

Looking at the Toriyama intervention, it seems essential to keep the story interesting. He came up with the Heeters and has insight like pointing out how Ceruleans aren't a warrior race.

That sounds like how the government operates...not efficient at all.

[Cipher]

The only creative revelation I guess I find remotely concerning, if pressed, would indeed be that Toyotaro feels like there are arbitrary no-go zones as someone who isn't the original author. If he's writing the manga and pitching ideas, I'd kind of want him to have the freedom to just go big, and if Toriyama isn't on board, he isn't on board. No reason to hold back from the start...

I like the way the arc is going, but "someone who has a history with the Saiyans" is, all things considered, a pretty conservative starting point, and DB has so much room to be weirder in its premises than that.

A little gutted to hear other universes were scrapped as starting premises too. Not complaining about what we got, but like ... that definitely feels more like the kind of expansion DB naturally lends itself to.

I hope Oatmeel is something so weird by the way. It might just be the eyepiece, but even if it is.

[DiscountDabi]

Alright. Toyotaro himself said that the Cerelians come from 50 years ago. That Places their Destruction in age 731, 6 years before the Sayaians were destroyed in Age 737. Glad thats all cleared up.

[omaro34]

So, there's a new interview with Toyotaro and he says some interesting things.

• The concept of Granolah was Toyo's idea, with a story fleshed out slightly with Uchida, which was then given to Toriyama.

• Toriyama made it "100 times better" and fleshed it out into a finished story. He added the Heeters, as well as Monaito and the new Dragon Balls, and that the Namekians weren't born on planet namek (Toyo says he feels like someone in his position isn't really free to propose ideas like that)

• Granolah was designed with somewhat of a steampunk feel, meant to feel old fashioned since these are clothes from decades ago when his race went extinct

• Oatmeel is brought up as a solution for having characters introduced as a pair, as otherwise it's hard to know what characters are thinking.

• Oatmeel will "come into play" later.

• The Heeter's designs were rejected 3 or 4 times by Toriyama before being finalised.

• Toyo tried to design the Sugarians but Toriyama ended up designing them.

• Goku in the Moro arc was "kind of perfect", so Toyo had to show that there's "a level of perfection beyond perfect"

• VERY confusingly, Broly is brought up and shown via image as an example of where Goku has room to grow, but it's not Toyo who brings him up. Toyo only brings up Whis, Beerus, and the Grand Priest (and also mentions that Goku/Vegeta/Granolah are the 3 strongest in the universe).

• Toyo doesn't answer the question about who is stronger between Goku and Vegeta

Didn't Toyo also mention that we find out more about the Namekian's origins? The subtitles could be wrong, but that's what I saw.

[Jack Bz]

First Toyotarõ doesn't feel like he can take any major decisions, like create a new set of Dragon Balls. This is a huge roadblock, tip-toeing your own ideas seems counter-productive.

Then the editor screening, I'm assuming the editor like many others holds back certain concepts. I bet if Toyotarõ came up with Mr.Boo, for example, it would be shot down "not cool enough".

Looking at the Toriyama intervention, it seems essential to keep the story interesting.

The only creative revelation I guess I find remotely concerning, if pressed, would indeed be that Toyotaro feels like there are arbitrary no-go zones as someone who isn't the original author. If he's writing the manga and pitching ideas, I'd kind of want him to have the freedom to just go big, and if Toriyama isn't on board, he isn't on board. No reason to hold back from the start...

I like the way the arc is going, but "someone who has a history with the Saiyans" is, all things considered, a pretty conservative starting point, and DB has so much room to be weirder in its premises than that.

I agree with these points. With these statements about what Toyo feels comfortable doing, it's pretty telling that with Moro he decided to make him and the plot very strongly analogous to Piccolo Daimao and other previous villains, with some of the more interesting aspects of the story (Merus as an undercover Angel) being ideas from Toriyama. But it also makes me wonder if Toyo might not necessarily have the creative chops to come up with entirely unique concepts without guidance.

That said, the statement could also just be read as him not feeling like he is allowed to interfere with very established Dragon Ball lore (such as making namekians a nomadic race from another universe), which is somewhat fair enough. He's probably scared of being seen as a fan who doesn't understand the original story.

[Mr Baggins]

This interview sure does a lot of describing Toriyama's involvement with the arc outline, and with Toyotaro also recalling how surprised he was about it, I'd guess it's a subtle implication that the former really was only minimally involved with the previous arc (unless I'm reading into it too much).

Also, there's Toyotaro hesitating to play around with established lore or introduce grander concepts without Toriyama's input. Would certainly explain why Moro felt a little too derivative.

[Cipher]

That said, the statement could also just be read as him not feeling like he is allowed to interfere with very established Dragon Ball lore (such as making namekians a nomadic race from another universe), which is somewhat fair enough. He's probably scared of being seen as a fan who doesn't understand the original story.

I very much read that as being the thrust, as both AF and Victory Mission showed a willingness to be far less conservative given DB's world as a sandbox. (Even accounting for the urban-legend lore adapted for AF, which did not make up the most out-there parts of the series.)

I don't particularly think it's "fair enough" (as in, I don't think it's for the better he tries to stay within those lines), but I can sympathize with the nerves, I suppose.

I think it's more in the series' ethos to go big or go home, but I don't have half a decade of dealing with fans scrutinizing my every choice.

[JulieYBM]

Toyo-tarou admitted to using sexual harassment of women for comedy in a kids comic. Wow, fuck you too asshole.

So the process is: Toyotarõ comes up with the villain, him and his editor come up with a story, finally it's sent to Toriyama.

Too many obstacles for it to be anything more than average, unless Toriyama completely takes over...

First Toyotarõ doesn't feel like he can take any major decisions, like create a new set of Dragon Balls. This is a huge roadblock, tip-toeing your own ideas seems counter-productive.

Then the editor screening, I'm assuming the editor like many others holds back certain concepts. I bet if Toyotarõ came up with Mr.Boo, for example, it would be shot down "not cool enough".

Looking at the Toriyama intervention, it seems essential to keep the story interesting. He came up with the Heeters and has insight like pointing out how Ceruleans aren't a warrior race.

That sounds like how the government operates...not efficient at all.

No, it sounds like how capitalism works. If this were a democratic government that was failing it would be because it failed the people and thus was now being cleaned up by the people. Under capitalism the people have zero recourse because the government is bribed to provide financial bailouts.

[Jack Bz]

I very much read that as being the thrust, as both AF and Victory Mission showed a willingness to be far less conservative given DB's world as a sandbox. (Even accounting for the urban-legend lore adapted for AF, which did not make up the most out-there parts of the series.)

I don't particularly think it's "fair enough" (as in, I don't think it's for the better he tries to stay within those lines), but I can sympathize with the nerves, I suppose.

By "fair enough" I just meant that it's still very easy to be creative and introduce wildly new story ideas while still not altering established lore, and that I don't think that in itself is a particularly big issue (though sure, it's not a necessary limitation). Retcons shouldn't be at all necessary for a creative idea. He could just have an arc set in another universe and not have to worry about most previous lore at all, but it seems like he's hesitant to do be the one to pilot a story like that.

[Cipher]

By "fair enough" I just meant that it's still very easy to be creative and introduce wildly new story ideas while still not altering established lore, and that I don't think that in itself is a particularly big issue (though sure, it's not a necessary limitation). Retcons shouldn't be at all necessary for a creative idea. He could just have an arc set in another universe and not have to worry about most previous lore at all.

I suppose so, for the Namekians. The first anecdote he brings up as far as not feeling like it was a boundary he could cross was introducing another set of Dragon Balls though.

Which, like, dude, just introduce new Dragon Balls if you want! Introduce five new sets! It doesn't matter.

[Koitsukai]

So, all the discussions about the wish and the new dragon weren't on Toyo after all?

[LightBing]

So, all the discussions about the wish and the new dragon weren't on Toyo after all?

At this point is fair to assume that most "scandalous" plot points are from Toriyama. He has no problem introducing new information like S-cells and stuff like that.

[JulieYBM]

I very much read that as being the thrust, as both AF and Victory Mission showed a willingness to be far less conservative given DB's world as a sandbox. (Even accounting for the urban-legend lore adapted for AF, which did not make up the most out-there parts of the series.)

I don't particularly think it's "fair enough" (as in, I don't think it's for the better he tries to stay within those lines), but I can sympathize with the nerves, I suppose.

By "fair enough" I just meant that it's still very easy to be creative and introduce wildly new story ideas while still not altering established lore, and that I don't think that in itself is a particularly big issue (though sure, it's not a necessary limitation). Retcons shouldn't be at all necessary for a creative idea. He could just have an arc set in another universe and not have to worry about most previous lore at all, but it seems like he's hesitant to do be the one to pilot a story like that.

Far be it for me to defend Toyo-tarou, a likely millionaire, but speaking as a writer myself I don't believe art creation should be some sort of 'competition' to avoid just doing whatever one wants to achieve their artistic expression.

[Mr Baggins]

So, all the discussions about the wish and the new dragon weren't on Toyo after all?

Not to toot my own horn, but I mentioned a few pages back that the whole plot point feels more in line with Toriyama than Toyotaro. In hindsight, though, it's not terribly surprising -- most of Super's "riskier" aspects come from the man himself.

I think a more interesting topic is what role the Cerealian balls (or even the Namekians) might continue to serve in the arc, if any. There could be an actual throughline here.