Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Mr Baggins]

Another reason Blue Goku vs. Gas isn't a good barometer is that Gas was actively holding back against Goku, deliberately testing and toying with him because he's Bardock's son. He suggested as much himself, and also made quick work of the much stronger Granolah moments prior.

There's a whole pattern in this arc where characters will either suddenly hold back for psychological reasons, be shit at wielding their power due to inexperience, or any combination of the two. Happens constantly. It's the Pro Wrestling arc of Dragon Ball.

[Hugo Boss]

The logic would be that his Blue at that point had surpassed his UI Sign.

I understand your assumption is that's improbable, but so are a lot of series power jumps. At least with the Saiyans, they have a built in BS creep with their race gaining power in real time through fighting.

For example, Vegeta's SSBE nearly catching up to full power Granolah after a few minutes of fighting. That's a same-arc example of the saiyans' power level drastically increasing in a very short amount of time, without a transformation.

I'm not convinced Goku's blue could match Jiren by that point, to be clear. That's why I'm asking. But I'm also not convinced it couldn't simply because the power creep would have to be unnaturally high. That's kind of the name of the game in DB.

I think you’re still missing my point. It’s not just improbable. It’s simply that the narrative doesn’t frame Blue with ultra instinct as a form that surpass UI Sign in any way. Power creep is not a reason per si, Goku doesn’t do anything in that form suggesting he can beat someone UI Sign can’t. He only managed to escape Gas, which doesn’t tell us anything. In another hand, the narrative gives us a clear picture of UI Sign surpassing UI Completed when Goku’s mental state is affecting him. I think a better question would be if Granolah arc UI Sign can beat Jiren or Moro.

I don't think I'm looking for/require the same narrative framing that you do, then.

I also think you're downplaying (or we simply disagree on) Goku's battle with Gas. He was playing defense, yes. But I see a character who is several arcs worth more powerful than Jiren aggressively trying to kill Goku, and failing not just that, but failing to land any solid blow whatsoever. I can think of countless battles where a fighter was defending himself and it simply didn't work because they were that much weaker.

Obviously Blue Goku is still weaker than Gas here. What I have to consider is that the power difference that would need to exist if Goku was still below Jiren, would logically render even a defensive stalemate impossible. How strong does that make Blue then? I don't really know.

While Gas was that powerful, he wasn’t making good use of his power. Goku could make good defensive plays because he was exploiting what Gas lacked in technique. I think this is basically the dynamic for the whole arc, that’s why Gas had the need to compensate with more power whenever his edge wasn’t enough to completely dominate them. Couple that with Goku being an incredible versatile fighter, mitigating the odds against him is just what he does best, even in forms he is completely outclassed.

Another reason Blue Goku vs. Gas isn't a good barometer is that Gas was actively holding back against Goku, deliberately testing and toying with him because he's Bardock's son. He suggested as much himself, and also made quick work of the much stronger Granolah moments prior.

There's a whole pattern in this arc where characters will either suddenly hold back for psychological reasons, be shit at wielding their power due to inexperience, or any combination of the two. Happens constantly. It's the Pro Wrestling arc of Dragon Ball.

And of course this as well.

[Zebra]

Don't forget that the Battle of Gods movie was originally written and even animated with Super Saiyan Gohan, not Ultimate Gohan, and they just recolored his hair and aura for his short "fight" with Beerus in the 11th hour. The movie also didn't let Gotenks use Super Saiyan 3, either.

I don't think anything was written about what forms they were using. There's no mention of about what forms Gohan and Gotenks were using in the script. The only things outlined about the Z Fighters' fight with Birus was that Boo, Piccolo, No.18, Tenshinhan, Gotenks, Gohan, and Vegeeta would all easily be defeated, and Vegeeta would surpass SS3 Gokuu with a rage boost from seeing Birus slap Bulma. The specifics were left to Yamamuro Tadayoshi. It's not said in the movie that anyone actually had to transform for the ritual, either, so that was probably just Toei's interpretation, as was Gohan originally turning Super Saiyan against Birus.

Toriyama only drew Gohan in his base form wearing his casual nerdy outfit. He didn't draw Gohan in his gi, and I doubt he wrote any notes saying Gohan would put it on to fight Birus, but he did write Gohan changing into Great Saiyaman in the script. The fact Toriyama drew Gohan in his base form probably implies he forgot about Ultimate; Toriyama seemed to forget about Kibitoshin as he drew Kaioushin and Kibito separately. It's safe to say that Toriyama said nothing about Gohan keeping up his training, but he didn't say anything about him getting weaker, either; Toriyama just didn't care much about Gohan's strength in the movie.

He did say "pretty much everyone" was at peak strength in the movie, and that would probably include Gohan since he isn't said or shown anywhere to be an exception. What form Gohan was using was ultimately inconsequential. Sure, Toei originally intended for Gohan to be Super Saiyan against Birus, but as we see with GT, that doesn't mean he had gotten weaker.