Dragonball Kai (FUNimation English) Dub: General Discussion

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

That...screams hardcore

I'd have to agree. I don't think Vegeta's voice is anymore associated with the series than Gohan or Freeza when it comes to dub fans, though I'm not a dub fan, so I could be wrong. My point is that they're going to such effort to try and make this more accurate, and made some recasts to suit the more accurate script...I think, assuming Sabat's 'reason' for dismissing Young wasn't bullshit (that she just couldn't perform well with that voice + the new script), it's hypocritical for him to keep Vegeta and he only did because that is his role, his iconic character. His acting is compatible with the new script, but the voice just isn't. It's passable at times, but far too often it comes off sounding extremely forced because he's still doing a character voice. Most of the actors are performing with more natural voices now, and that's why the dub has been so good so far. Sabat's Vegeta still feels too much like a caricature voice to me, and that takes me out of the series.

I'm not blaming him for the voice, either...it started as an attempt to emulate Drummond's Vegeta, and over time evolved from that imitation voice, but it could never evolve from a caricature voice to be natural...because that's what Piccolo's did. If he did Vegeta more naturally, he'd sound even more like Piccolo, and that would be a problem for obvious reasons. Of the two roles, let's say he was forced to give up one or be fired - I think he'd choose Piccolo, and keep Vegeta. But his Piccolo has gotten really good, and I honestly might react negatively to a Piccolo recast (unless they got McNeil back...but I suppose if FUNi couldn't get him back for Hoenheim in FMA Brotherhood... ). One guy can't voice two main characters without making one of them a caricature voice, and sadly, that's why Vegeta sounds the way he does (now don't get me wrong; Schemmel, for instance, does a good job of having Gokou and Nail sound different enough that the casual fan probably wouldn't know they were voiced by the same guy...but Nail isn't around that long, and during the periods he is, Gokou's not getting much screentime. Imagine Nail staying on as a main part of the cast and being in many scenes with Gokou...in order for him to sound different enough, Schemmel would have to concentrate harder on making Nail's voice deeper, and eventually it'd probably come off forced as a result of consciously trying to make the voices different). He could only evolve one of those roles to sound more natural, and since Vegeta became known for The Rasp, even as the performance improved, he kept The Rasp. That's why I think it sounds so forced and fake.

I dunno, I guess I'm just against having one actor double-up on so many roles in general. I understand in the early days why that was necessary, and it's due to popularity that now these voices have become too iconic to change. Sabat gave up a fuckton of roles, which was the right decision, and I never expected he'd give up Vegeta, I just always wished he would. And this is certainly not a bash against FUNimation - even in Japanese, it always put me off just how many characters were voiced by Daisuke Gouri and Johji Yanami. The Nozawa family was acceptable for obvious reasons, but typically, it bugs me when VA's double-up for anything other than the occasional minor roles.

[JulieYBM]

Running off of the topic of Gôri and Yanami always voicing smaller roles (and being easy to pick out for it)...I totally think Sabat could "Daisuke Gôri it" by using his one natural voice to voice his big three. If he's unwilling to give up Yamcha, Piccolo, and Vegeta (or just two of them) than I'd rather he just use the one voice like Gôri does. At least then they'd all sound pretty damn awesome. Heck, Hikaru Midorikawa voices #16 and Tenshinhan in Dragon Ball Kai now with barely any difference in his pitch.

[Gozar]

That...screams hardcore

I'd have to agree. I don't think Vegeta's voice is anymore associated with the series than Gohan or Freeza when it comes to dub fans, though I'm not a dub fan, so I could be wrong. My point is that they're going to such effort to try and make this more accurate, and made some recasts to suit the more accurate script...I think, assuming Sabat's 'reason' for dismissing Young wasn't bullshit (that she just couldn't perform well with that voice + the new script), it's hypocritical for him to keep Vegeta and he only did because that is his role, his iconic character. His acting is compatible with the new script, but the voice just isn't. It's passable at times, but far too often it comes off sounding extremely forced because he's still doing a character voice. Most of the actors are performing with more natural voices now, and that's why the dub has been so good so far. Sabat's Vegeta still feels too much like a caricature voice to me, and that takes me out of the series.

I'm not blaming him for the voice, either...it started as an attempt to emulate Drummond's Vegeta, and over time evolved from that imitation voice, but it could never evolve from a caricature voice to be natural...because that's what Piccolo's did. If he did Vegeta more naturally, he'd sound even more like Piccolo, and that would be a problem for obvious reasons. Of the two roles, let's say he was forced to give up one or be fired - I think he'd choose Piccolo, and keep Vegeta. But his Piccolo has gotten really good, and I honestly might react negatively to a Piccolo recast (unless they got McNeil back...but I suppose if FUNi couldn't get him back for Hoenheim in FMA Brotherhood... ). One guy can't voice two main characters without making one of them a caricature voice, and sadly, that's why Vegeta sounds the way he does (now don't get me wrong; Schemmel, for instance, does a good job of having Goku and Nail sound different enough that the casual fan probably wouldn't know they were voiced by the same guy...but Nail isn't around that long, and during the periods he is, Goku's not getting much screentime. Imagine Nail staying on as a main part of the cast and being in many scenes with Goku...in order for him to sound different enough, Schemmel would have to concentrate harder on making Nail's voice deeper, and eventually it'd probably come off forced as a result of consciously trying to make the voices different). He could only evolve one of those roles to sound more natural, and since Vegeta became known for The Rasp, even as the performance improved, he kept The Rasp. That's why I think it sounds so forced and fake.

I dunno, I guess I'm just against having one actor double-up on so many roles in general. I understand in the early days why that was necessary, and it's due to popularity that now these voices have become too iconic to change. Sabat gave up a fuckton of roles, which was the right decision, and I never expected he'd give up Vegeta, I just always wished he would. And this is certainly not a bash against FUNimation - even in Japanese, it always put me off just how many characters were voiced by Daisuke Gouri and Johji Yanami. The Nozawa family was acceptable for obvious reasons, but typically, it bugs me when VA's double-up for anything other than the occasional minor roles.

I disagree strongly. As a dub fan Vegeta's voice is one of the voices that would completely turn me off from the Dub if it were changed. Schemmel, Sabat (Vegeta and Piccolo), Strait, and Vale are irreplaceable voices in my mind. I enjoy character voices, a lot. To me I think a lot of fans are very hypocritical in judging Sabat's Vegeta voice. The reason for this is that they put down Sabat for sounding unnatural. Yet praise Nozawa's voice. I don't know anyone in the entire world, man or woman, that sounds like that. Nozawa's Goku voice is a complete character voice. I'm not saying that's a problem, nor am I bashing Nozawa. I'm saying that fans can't be so brash towards something in the Dub and not call the version they like on the same thing.

For me, Sabat's Vegeta voice IS Vegeta. My reasoning has always been that while Horikawa gets across the royal tone better. Vegeta is an arrogant man first and a prince second in my eyes. Sabat gets this across better than Horikawa. What Sabat has done with his Vegeta voice in Kai is perfect. Vegeta's no longer screaming every line, but still has the same feel to his voice.

[ohaimynameiserik]

That...screams hardcore (times "over 9,000")...!

Actually you couldn't pay me to watch the dub of Z before Kai came to the states.

I was exaggerating heavily. But at this point to refuse that Vegeta's dub voice is not engrained into American pop culture at this point is being just plain unreasonable.

[Gaffer Tape]

Actually, I don't think that's being unreasonable. Dragon Ball isn't The Flinstones. It isn't Scooby-Doo. It isn't Batman. It isn't any of those iconic cartoons that every single person in the U.S. knows about. Sure, it's big. Probably bigger on the pop culture radar than any other anime in this country. But it's hardly ubiquitous. It's hardly big on the mainstream pop culture radar in this country. Go up to any random person on the street and ask them what Scooby-Doo sounds like, and pretty much anyone will be able to tell you (and, yeah, it's been a real shame for that character since Don Messick died, so I agree that performers can be pretty iconic). They'll probably answer in their own imitation of the voice. Then go up to any random person on the street and ask them what Vegeta sounds like, and chances are you'll probably be met with a dumbfounded stare.

[Soul]

In that video for the Tag VS dub Ultimate attacks, #18 for a second sounded like Jason Liebrecht.

[penguintruth]

I enjoy character voices, a lot. To me I think a lot of fans are very hypocritical in judging Sabat's Vegeta voice. The reason for this is that they put down Sabat for sounding unnatural. Yet praise Nozawa's voice. I don't know anyone in the entire world, man or woman, that sounds like that. Nozawa's Goku voice is a complete character voice. I'm not saying that's a problem, nor am I bashing Nozawa. I'm saying that fans can't be so brash towards something in the Dub and not call the version they like on the same thing.

For me, Sabat's Vegeta voice IS Vegeta. My reasoning has always been that while Horikawa gets across the royal tone better. Vegeta is an arrogant man first and a prince second in my eyes. Sabat gets this across better than Horikawa. What Sabat has done with his Vegeta voice in Kai is perfect. Vegeta's no longer screaming every line, but still has the same feel to his voice.

Well, first of all, Goku is different from every other character in the series. He is all about being not what others expect him to be, regardless of how long they know him. It's only fitting that his voice also have a sense of personality over physicality. He can't be treated with the same standards as the other characters. Not to mention, Nozawa's delivery is even more important than her sound, and it's a delivery no English dub VA for the character has been able to match.

Second, I wouldn't even say Sabat's Vegeta is the best English dub voice for the character. Brian Drummond gave Vegeta a better smugness, making him sound supremely confident and like he thinks he's better than everyone. But Horikawa still beats them both for touching all parts of Vegeta's personality without having to overdo it. He always sounds naturally Vegeta.

But like I said, the average person, probably even the average DBZ fan, doesn't even care what Goku and Vegeta sound like.

[linkdude20002001]

From my experience with the casual fans who tried watching Kai on TV, they were displeased by the missing content (filler), not the different voices and music. My friend Skyler in particular was unhappy with the missing scenes, and only continued watching to make sure they didn't screw up or cut out Vegeta's "It's over 9,000!!" scene.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

To me I think a lot of fans are very hypocritical in judging Sabat's Vegeta voice. The reason for this is that they put down Sabat for sounding unnatural. Yet praise Nozawa's voice. I don't know anyone in the entire world, man or woman, that sounds like that. Nozawa's Goku voice is a complete character voice.

Quoted for truth. In Kai, Sabat's Vegeta is way more toned down. It sounds sort of natural now. Nozawa's Gokū in Kai however, sounds slightly more annoying and shrill.

[Adamant]

That...screams hardcore (times "over 9,000")...!

Actually you couldn't pay me to watch the dub of Z before Kai came to the states.

Still, yu're sitting on an internet forum nerding about who voices what in which dub. Even knowing the name of a single dub actor puts you way the hell above the average "dubbie" in terms of hardcoreness.

[ohaimynameiserik]

That...screams hardcore (times "over 9,000")...!

Actually you couldn't pay me to watch the dub of Z before Kai came to the states.

Still, yu're sitting on an internet forum nerding about who voices what in which dub. Even knowing the name of a single dub actor puts you way the hell above the average "dubbie" in terms of hardcoreness.

EDIT: After reading this more than once I have no idea what you mean.


"Then go up to any random person on the street and ask them what Vegeta sounds like, and chances are you'll probably be met with a dumbfounded stare."


Depends completely on what age they are.

Someone my age who is in elementary and middle school during Z's run on Toonami would be able to tell you immediately.

[linkdude20002001]

I don't think that's what Adamant meant. I'm pretty sure he's saying that the people of these forums are all hardcore, regardless of what version they like.

I disagree strongly. As a dub fan Vegeta's voice is one of the voices that would completely turn me off from the Dub if it were changed. Schemmel, Sabat (Vegeta and Piccolo), Strait, and Vale are irreplaceable voices in my mind. I enjoy character voices, a lot. To me I think a lot of fans are very hypocritical in judging Sabat's Vegeta voice. The reason for this is that they put down Sabat for sounding unnatural. Yet praise Nozawa's voice. I don't know anyone in the entire world, man or woman, that sounds like that. Nozawa's Goku voice is a complete character voice. I'm not saying that's a problem, nor am I bashing Nozawa. I'm saying that fans can't be so brash towards something in the Dub and not call the version they like on the same thing.

For me, Sabat's Vegeta voice IS Vegeta. My reasoning has always been that while Horikawa gets across the royal tone better. Vegeta is an arrogant man first and a prince second in my eyes. Sabat gets this across better than Horikawa. What Sabat has done with his Vegeta voice in Kai is perfect. Vegeta's no longer screaming every line, but still has the same feel to his voice.

Sabat's Vegeta sounds bad because it's deep, raspy, and angry, not just because it's "character voice". Sabat's Vegeta doesn't sound as arrogant and full of himself as Horikawa or Drummond's Vegeta. Not that I like Drummond's Vegeta at all; I think his Vegeta was also too rasy and angry.

Though he's not really a character that should get a "character voice". Some characters, like Goku, and I guess Kaioh, sound good with an exaggerated voice (though Schemmel took Kaioh too far).

[Mewzard]

I don't think that's what Adamant meant. I'm pretty sure he's saying that the people of these forums are all hardcore, regardless of what version they like.

I disagree strongly. As a dub fan Vegeta's voice is one of the voices that would completely turn me off from the Dub if it were changed. Schemmel, Sabat (Vegeta and Piccolo), Strait, and Vale are irreplaceable voices in my mind. I enjoy character voices, a lot. To me I think a lot of fans are very hypocritical in judging Sabat's Vegeta voice. The reason for this is that they put down Sabat for sounding unnatural. Yet praise Nozawa's voice. I don't know anyone in the entire world, man or woman, that sounds like that. Nozawa's Goku voice is a complete character voice. I'm not saying that's a problem, nor am I bashing Nozawa. I'm saying that fans can't be so brash towards something in the Dub and not call the version they like on the same thing.

For me, Sabat's Vegeta voice IS Vegeta. My reasoning has always been that while Horikawa gets across the royal tone better. Vegeta is an arrogant man first and a prince second in my eyes. Sabat gets this across better than Horikawa. What Sabat has done with his Vegeta voice in Kai is perfect. Vegeta's no longer screaming every line, but still has the same feel to his voice.

Sabat's Vegeta sounds bad because it's deep, raspy, and angry, not just because it's "character voice". Sabat's Vegeta doesn't sound as arrogant and full of himself as Horikawa or Drummond's Vegeta. Not that I like Drummond's Vegeta at all; I think his Vegeta was also too rasy and angry.

Though he's not really a character that should get a "character voice". Some characters, like Goku, and I guess Kaioh, sound good with an exaggerated voice (though Schemmel took Kaioh too far).

So let's see:
Shouldn't have a character voice for Vegeta and Sabat does-(for original)
Goku and Kaio-sama can have exaggerated voices, but dub Kaio is too far-(for original)
Well, unless not mentioning Schemmel's Goku in the bad is a positive for the dub, seems we have a vote of 2-0 in favor of the classic, lol.

Joking aside, Sabat's Vegeta has definitely improved. It's not as consistently good as I would hope, but there is less gruffness to it, especially when calm spoken. I admit it's not perfect, but it's not irredeemable either.

This is the kind of dub where, if we had gotten it first, there would probably less complaints to it, because there would be more fans of it in the hardcore spectrum. No dub's going to 100% get every detail, but they went out of their way to get a lot of details right, and that's good.

[Gaffer Tape]

"Then go up to any random person on the street and ask them what Vegeta sounds like, and chances are you'll probably be met with a dumbfounded stare."


Depends completely on what age they are.

Someone my age who is in elementary and middle school during Z's run on Toonami would be able to tell you immediately.

Yeah, and depends what their interests were, what parts of the country they're from, what their parents let them watch, maybe what gender they are... There are a lot of "depends." I was in middle school during Z's run on Toonami, but I know plenty of people my age who wouldn't have the slightest idea who this "Vegeta" person is, let alone what he sounds like. If you mention Dragon Ball, they might be able to tell you it's about spikey-haired people who beat each other up, but that's it. My point is, it's not nearly as "mainstream" or embedded in American "pop culture" as you might think. Something that is simply wouldn't have so many "depends" as hurdles.

So let me ask you. Is Japan up in arms because there's a different Tenshinhan? Because all of Freeza's minions' voices were recast? Because there's going to be a new Mr. Satan? When the 2007 Transformers movie came out, did ticket sales plummet because Scatman Crothers was no longer playing Jazz? I'm not stating whether or not replacing Chris Sabat as Vegeta would be a good idea or not. I'm just saying the world wouldn't end, and neither would any bit of Dragon Ball fandom, if he had been replaced for this remake (because in terms of audio and acting performance, Kai can be considered a straight up remake).

[Adamant]

I don't think that's what Adamant meant. I'm pretty sure he's saying that the people of these forums are all hardcore, regardless of what version they like.

Yeah, probably should've worded that better.

Basically, you can call yourself "not hardcore" all you want, but still, by virtue of knowing names like "Chris Sabat" and "Bruce Falconer", being able to remember roughly what Vegeta sounds like, knowing that Kikuchi or Yamamoto's music wasn't used in the old TV broadcasts... you're still way the hell more hardcore than most American "Dragon Ball Z" fans.

Most American fans don't know the Yamamoto score is new. Most don't know Gohan isn't voiced by the same person who voiced him way back then, and even if they somehow realized, most wouldn't care. All the complaints about things being "different from the original" are coming from the ultra-hardcore internet dub nerds, and they don't make up a particularly large amount of the fanbase. They could've recasted everyone in the entire series, and the only people who would've cared considerably are the people who are already condemning dub Kai for the "changes" that have already been made anyway. You'd have to rename Goku and Vegeta or something in order to get your average watcher to take notice that something is off.

[Gaffer Tape]

Exactly. I felt it was a huge reality check when Kendamu pointed out that his friends picked up the orange bricks and watched the show with the default audio setting (English 5.1 with Japanese music) and had no idea they were watching or listening to anything different than what they saw on TV. If even most casual fans don't know this stuff, you can bet the general populace is even more clueless.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Well, I regret bringing the word "hardcore" into the discussion, because nobody seems to agree on the definition for that word. Not just here, but anywhere. That's a bad word to use in discussion, I think. I totally blame myself for bringing it up, though.

Having said that, I firmly disagree that they could have re-cast everyone and people wouldn't care. In the end, none of us have anything to go by other than personal stories and observations, none of us have charts or anything, but from my observations* I think that would cause irreparable backlash. I think it's also important to point out that people calling for a full re-cast of the show are primarily sub viewers who can't relate to people who like the dub performances. There's been huge, organized movements on the internet for both the Mexico dub and the Brazil dub to maintain their original casts, you mean to assume that the same thing wouldn't happen with the English dub? Something tells me that if the reverse option were put into play--which is to say, if the Japanese voices were all re-cast--they'd understand why the proposition of a complete re-cast is a tad absurd.

*Since we're telling personal stories about why we think casual dub fans would or would not notice or appreciate the changes made, let me contribute this personal story. Me and my friend were watching the Blu-Ray of "The Return of Cooler," and being the Japanese-music loyalist that I am, we were watching it with the English voices/Japanese music audio track. Fast-forward twenty minutes, a couple of my other friends walk in and start watching. One of them asks, "This sounds...different. I miss the old version with the sweet music." Before I had time to think about the consequences of my actions, I said, "What, you mean this?" I switched the audio track to the English Music/English Voices audio track, and he nodded enthusiastically, saying, "Okay, yeah, GOD, much better." I learned my lesson there...shoulda' just acted like I didn't know what he was talking about.

[Gaffer Tape]

I don't know. I still disagree, and that's just based on the fact that it HAS happened before. By the time of season 3 DBZ and DB had been airing for four years with the same voice cast and had built up a huge following thanks to its exposure on Toonami. And I was pissed as hell when the entire voice cast was replaced at the same time for season 3. I bitched. I complained. I turned up my nose. I still continued watching. And so did everybody else.

And, yes, I would be horrified if the Japanese cast had been replaced. But consider if Kai had been made 10 years later, and the entire cast had either passed on, retired, or refused to come back, and had to be replaced. It would have been a loss for the show, sure, but I still think it would have gone on. And if Dragon Ball continues on well into future, it will happen at some point (Personally, I hope they don't milk the franchise for that much longer, but it stands to chance they will).

Especially considering they've already changed several major voices for the English version of Kai (Gohan, Bulma, Freeza), and it is still selling well, I think that conclusively proves they can change the voices without the property financially imploding on itself.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I don't know. I still disagree, and that's just based on the fact that it HAS happened before. By the time of season 3 DBZ and DB had been airing for four years with the same voice cast and had built up a huge following thanks to its exposure on Toonami. And I was pissed as hell when the entire voice cast was replaced at the same time for season 3. I bitched. I complained. I turned up my nose. I still continued watching. And so did everybody else.

That's a good point, yes, but not a conclusive one. For three reasons.

1) It didn't air on Toonami for four years. I don't remember the exact time frame, but the re-runs of DBZ weren't picked up by Toonami until after DBZ had already been on TV in the absurdly early hours of the morning for a long while. As a guestimation, I want to say that it started airing on Toonami around 1998. The point being, the old Ocean dub of DBZ didn't begin to get popular until long after it originally started on syndicated TV. So it's not as permanently-ingrained into the minds of fans.

2) The FUNimation dub has a lot more prominent exposure than the Ocean dub, even the post-Saban Ocean dub. Their cast handed the English adaptations of the movies, the videogames, and the TV series...there's a reason the Ocean dub is usually referred to as the "Alternative" English dub. If you go only by number of fans, I'd guess the FUNimation voices have made a much stronger impression than the Ocean dub ever did. Is it because the Ocean dub didn't get as much exposure? Perhaps. But the FUNimation cast is still more prominent.

3) FUNimation has said in several of their industry panels that the vast majority of their DVD-buyers are dub-watchers. They said that the number of sub-watchers is not at all small enough to justify cutting out the subtitled version, they've vowed that all of their DVDs will be dub-and-sub releases, but the fact remains that the dub-watchers outnumber the sub-watchers.

Especially considering they've already changed several major voices for the English version of Kai (Gohan, Bulma, Freeza), and it is still selling well, I think that conclusively proves they can change the voices without the property financially imploding on itself.

I'm about to say something controversial, so get ready. I don't think Bulma is a major character. Not by the time we get to DBZ, anyway. She, like several other characters, has fallen victim to the problem Akira Toriyama has occasionally demonstrated of forgetting about his characters or downgrading their significance due to not being able to figure out what to do with them. She's just not as important as she was in Dragon Ball. Granted, she isn't as big a victim in this regard as Launch, but she still isn't overly important in the whole scheme of things. Even less so in Kai since her screen time is cut down. She provides occasional (and very brief) comic relief on Namek, and she's the mother of Trunks. She just...doesn't do that much.

I've seen very little complaints about Bulma's re-cast. I have seen some, sure, but not a ton. I honestly think it's because that part is not a significant re-cast. Not at this point in the plot.

Gohan and Freeza, though. Two VERY significant re-casts. That's still only two, though. I don't think we can justify comparing that to re-casting the whole cast.

[Adamant]

There's been huge, organized movements on the internet for both the Mexico dub and the Brazil dub to maintain their original casts, you mean to assume that the same thing wouldn't happen with the English dub?

"Huge"... how huge? A thousand angry nerds raging at the internet that they won't watch a TV cartoon unless these specific actors are cast isn't going to matter much to the dubbers. And hell, these people are already raging because Gohan and Freeza were recast anyway. How many people out there fall into the "I don't care if Gohan or Freeza are recast, but if you change Goku's dubber, I'm not watching" camp? Can't imagine there being that many.