Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[kamehahaha]

Goku had the huge advantage of knowing Hit's technique before the fight. Went into the fight with the right plan.

Vados-15.5
Whis-15
Beerus-10.5
Champa-10
Hit/Goku/Vegeta-7

[Bullza]

In the episode, Vegeta says that Hit is hiding most of his ki (you're right that he's suppressed) but that what little he can feel proves that Hit is stronger than the other contestants.

How does that suggest he's stronger than the others?

Btw, going by your reasoning, Yamcha with Hit's techniques >>> SSB Vegeta. That's just impossible lol.

Well who knows. It's like Guldo in a way he was a weakling but his time stop abilities allowed him to be on the Ginyu Force when the likes of Zarbon, Dodoria and Vegeta were not.

Vegeta could have been as strong as Whis but it wouldn't make any difference if his opponent can skip time and hit him before he can react. Likewise if attacking pressure points is effective regardless of how tough you might be (as is the point) then those abilities do give an overwhelming advantage that can only be overcome with skill.

Goku being a martial arts master allows him to predict his opponents moves. If Yamcha had those techniques maybe he could pull something off against more powerful opponents though he wouldn't necessarily have the force behind those attacks that Hit does because he has a low power level.

[Chiki]

How does that suggest he's stronger than the others?

Vegeta himself says that what little he can feel of Hit's ki is strong, and goes SSB immediately.

You know what the implications of that statement are. He wouldn't go SSB immediately if he thought Hit was on Base Cabba's level, obviously.

[buutenks]

Wouldnt base saiyans be much weaker than ssg, since whis stated that base saiyans are far far below the gods. So goku keeping up with beerus and destroying the ki ball was a one time deal.

That or all u6 fighters are god tiers, except for botamo.

Or goku can turn his god ki on or off.

Vegeta went from ssj to ssj blue, which means he simply turned his god ki on and his hair color changed and aura to blue.

On top of that vegeta went from base to ssj blue, which would mean he turned his god ki on.

Hmm, so perhaps the 2 base theories can still be true.

Plus them not using god ki to amp their base stats vs the u6 fighters is just them not wanting to win easily.

Against this we have krillin saying in rof arc that goku got much stronger than when he fought beerus. Ofc this could simply be goku getting stronger due to the training and his god ki infused base is miles stronger.

Edit;Seems to me to far fetched that vados could find 4 god tier characters, each stronger than the other and all 4 being at their lowest as strong as ssg. To far fetched for me.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'm pretty sure Whis said that before the training started. Is there a reason why Goku and Vegeta can't be a lot closer to Super Saiyan God after the training is complete?

[dbzfan7]

Seems like the two base theory is right to me, as Goku could have gone SSJ and not drained stamina, but didn't. Though really I think SSJ was pointless and should just have been phased out to make things simpler.

But that's In-Universe. Other than that Super levels are as stupid as GT levels.

[buutenks]

I'm pretty sure Whis said that before the training started. Is there a reason why Goku and Vegeta can't be a lot closer to Super Saiyan God after the training is complete?

Yes, ofc they would be. However that would mean that goku didnt absorb the full power of ssg. Since the gap between beerus and ssg isnt as big as the gap between a tree and a castle.

Seems like the two base theory is right to me, as Goku could have gone SSJ and not drained stamina, but didn't. Though really I think SSJ was pointless and should just have been phased out to make things simpler.

My guess, they introduced it again to sell toys and stuff.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's how I rank the fighters so far:

SSB Goku | SSB Vegeta
Hit (suppressed)
SbG Goku | SbG Vegeta
Majin Boo
Magetta (powered-up)
SS Goku | SS Vegeta
SS Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku | Base Vegeta
Base Cabba
Magetta (initially)
First Form Frost
Botamo
Monaka

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I do believe he absorbed a good amount of it, though. Enough to put him way above any previous Boo saga level. By the time the Whis training is complete, I see Goku well above the level he was at after merging with the God Power as a Super Saiyan.

[namekiansaiyan]

That's how I rank the fighters so far:

SSB Goku | SSB Vegeta
Hit (suppressed)
SbG Goku | SbG Vegeta
Majin Boo
Magetta (powered-up)
SS Goku | SS Vegeta
SS Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku | Base Vegeta
Base Cabba
Magetta (initially)
First Form Frost
Botamo
Monaka

I think this is basically what I have but just take Majin Buu out as we have no clue with him and get rid of saiyan beyond god Goku and Vegeta.

[buutenks]

That's how I rank the fighters so far:

SSB Goku | SSB Vegeta
Hit (suppressed)
SbG Goku | SbG Vegeta
Majin Boo
Magetta (powered-up)
SS Goku | SS Vegeta
SS Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku | Base Vegeta
Base Cabba
Magetta (initially)
First Form Frost
Botamo
Monaka

Not to bad. This could work with the 2 bases theory.

[Xeztin]

As of now I don't think Hit is as strong as SSJB, it's just that darn time-leap technique that he uses and aiming for vitals. We'll see though!

[Bullza]

You know what the implications of that statement are. He wouldn't go SSB immediately if he thought Hit was on Base Cabba's level, obviously.

Hmm I'd have to see the episode with subs but if Vegeta considers him strong enough to go SSJB then why didnt Goku go SSJB? He was fine to just attack as he was once he knew his trick.

He couldn't have thought he was on Cabba's level either way because they'd been talking about how they had a bad feeling about him an episode of two ago.

[Chiki]

You know what the implications of that statement are. He wouldn't go SSB immediately if he thought Hit was on Base Cabba's level, obviously.

Hmm I'd have to see the episode with subs but if Vegeta considers him strong enough to go SSJB then why didnt Goku go SSJB? He was fine to just attack as he was once he knew his trick.

He couldn't have thought he was on Cabba's level either way because they'd been talking about how they had a bad feeling about him an episode of two ago.

Vegeta’s next opponent is Universe 6’s final team member, the assassin Hit. Even though Hit is doing his best to conceal his ki, Vegeta can still tell from what little ki he can sense (and from Hit’s extreme calmness) that Hit is definitely strong.

We heard no such statement about anyone else's ki.

Also, Goku didn't go SSB because SSB apparently has stamina issues too (really Toriyama?). He said he wanted to figure out his technique before using up his stamina.

[Hugo Boss]

Hit's hand-to-hand ability doesn't seem that impressive and he does points out it doesn't matter how strong his opponents are. If he hits their vital points for a long time, they will surely die. That more or less explain why Vegeta didn't do any good against him, despite being the most powerful.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm still sticking to what I said earlier on this. Mr. Buu is heavily implied to be relevant in the tournament (if he made it), Piccolo was confirmed to be kinda-sorta relevant with his SBC, and the Uub epilogue where base Goku is still a good bit a weaker than a Pure Buu level fighter, still exists. That's after a good amount of training too, over five years in fact. So base Goku/Vegeta now would be... high SS2-tier, I guess, and SS would be x50 stronger than that, based on Vegeta's fight with Cabba. Cabba, true form Freeza, and assault form Frost would be around that same strength, while 1st form Frost and Piccolo would be a step below. But yeah, all generally within SS2-tier IMO. Frost's true form is obviously way stronger than any of these characters, but there's no way to tell exactly how much stronger. At the very least, the fact that Piccolo's SBC (~x3-4 his normal strength) > an exhausted Frost would imply that's he's actually a lot closer to the base tier than he is to Goku's SS.

I definitely think Mr. Buu would wipe the floor with any of the above, besides perhaps true form Frost. But again he can be anywhere as long as he's stronger than Goku's base and way weaker than his SS.

Yes, I agree. Goku did say Boo was incredible after getting mad after all. My only gripe is that it makes final form Freeza very weak, Boo and SSJ2 Gotenks could one shot his ass. This also confirms Gohan is weaker than Piccolo in base and in fact did not get weaker but just lost the ultimate power up. He does say after all that he "can't access" his full power.

P.S. Was Goku confirmed to be weaker than Oob in the epilogue?

I don't mind Freeza being relatively weak. If anything I think it fits a bit better to have most of his power come from his golden form, and for the incompetence of several characters (Gotenks for wasting time, Mr. Buu for falling asleep, Gohan for losing his Ultimate form) to be the only reason he made it that far. But that's just my opinion.

Not explicitly, but that's the impression I got from watching the fight. When Uub was angry, which brought him to the level where Goku said he thought Uub would be all along, he was able to drive Goku back and keep an advantage despite his lack of fighting skill.

[LowRyder2005]

That's how I rank the fighters so far:

SSB Goku | SSB Vegeta
Hit (suppressed)
SbG Goku | SbG Vegeta
Majin Boo
Magetta (powered-up)
SS Goku | SS Vegeta
SS Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku | Base Vegeta
Base Cabba
Magetta (initially)
First Form Frost
Botamo
Monaka

I can dig his. Mine would be basically the same.

[supercat]

That's how I rank the fighters so far:

SSB Goku | SSB Vegeta
Hit (suppressed)
SbG Goku | SbG Vegeta
Majin Boo
Magetta (powered-up)
SS Goku | SS Vegeta
SS Cabba
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku | Base Vegeta
Base Cabba
Magetta (initially)
First Form Frost
Botamo
Monaka

It's funny how people continue to regard a fodder like Buu so highly just for the sake of maintaining his reputation as a universal threat. We're talking about a show where technological enhancements could enable two teenagers to overwhelm legendary warriors who are capable of utterly humiliating a planet-busting, universally-renowned tyrant. Buu's reputation losing value is not good enough of a reason to try and squeeze everyone into a watered down power scale.

With the exclusion of Buu, I agree with your placements. I'd place the pink blob around Botamo-tier at best; far below Piccolo and Frost to say the least.

Final Form Frost > Piccolo > Assault Form Frost > Buuhan / First Form Frost / First Form Frieza > Buutenks > SSJ3 Goku (BoG), is how I see it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

What problems does Base Goku and Base Vegeta going forward as Saiyan Beyond God level really create? Can't the U6 fighters just be that strong? It's natural progression.

I really don't get the impression that there's two Base forms. That seems to unnecessarily complicate things.

[Bullza]

We heard no such statement about anyone else's ki.

That doesn't mean much though. They know he's strong before they started fighting because they talked about it, Goku kept staring at him. He might be suppressed but of course he's still strong even then.

There is no two base theory now, that's a definite and this episode made that abundantly clear. So base Goku is either God tier like he was against Beerus or he's closer to SSJ3 tier. It's one or the other, it certainly ain't both.

More evidence points to the later being true.

Whis' comparison.
His fight with Uub.
The SSJ form still boosting their power 50 fold.
SSJB being considerably more powerful than that.
And the sense that surely Piccolo, Botamo, Frost, Cabba are not God tier.
Etc.