Dragonball Kai (FUNimation English) Dub: General Discussion

[Turtle Marked Stone]

Yup, I think you nailed it pretty well there. In fact "noticeable anger" is just about the perfect way to describe every scene I'm thinking of with that whiny frustrated voice. I agree with a lot of what you're saying script wise. I wish I had watched Kai more to give specific examples but I do remember certain scenes with that tone that I don't think can be blamed on the script.

I'm always reminded of the worst example of his "noticeable anger" whenever it comes up. Vegeta blows the Ginyu force away and Sean lets out a "AAAAAAWWWW NOOOO! VEGETAAAAA YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAAAT! HE WAS ALREADY DOWN!" I'm not really ragging on Sean for that one. I believe that was one of the first ever episodes he recorded but it's just the first example that pops into my mind whenever I hear that inflection, probably because it was so exaggerated.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Yup, I think you nailed it pretty well there. In fact "noticeable anger" is just about the perfect way to describe every scene I'm thinking of with that whiny frustrated voice. I agree with a lot of what you're saying script wise. I wish I had watched Kai more to give specific examples but I do remember certain scenes with that tone that I don't think can be blamed on the script.

I'm always reminded of the worst example of his "noticeable anger" whenever it comes up. Vegeta blows the Ginyu force away and Sean lets out a "AAAAAAWWWW NOOOO! VEGETAAAAA YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAAAT! HE WAS ALREADY DOWN!" I'm not really ragging on Sean for that one. I believe that was one of the first ever episodes he recorded but it's just the first example that pops into my mind whenever I hear that inflection, probably because it was so exaggerated.

That was the second episode he ever did, and in the first one he only had a few lines, so that might as well have been his first episode. And yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. I HATE that scene. He gives out such an unconvincing, "Heeeey, stop!" Even when I was 12 years old watching that scene for the first time, I raised my eyebrow a bit at that. That and the following, "What's your deeeal? You know how to receive mercy but you can't give it! Too bad! I was hoping you might have changed!" Eugh...I'm cringing just writing that. Inexperience and bad writing. Which, thankfully, is now loads of experience and good writing.

[Mewzard]

I...*think* I might know what you're talking about. My wording is going to get confusing, though, so bear with me. Goku has three levels of anger, in order of intensity from least to greatest: quiet anger, noticeable anger, and raging anger. As much as I love Sean Schemmel--I've said it once and I'll say it again, I think he's the best Goku--I think the "noticeable anger" is where his portrayal is weakest. An example of this would be one of Goku's many, "My name is GOKU, and I'm from EARTH!" bits.

I attribute that mostly to the scripts, though. It's particularly noticeable when he started out, the writers just gave him so much fakey, hoakey, forced dialogue to speak, culminating in the positively dreadful "Hope of the Universe" speech. Schemmel even said himself that he hated recording that part because it struck him as totally out-of-character for Goku. Think about that for a second. We're talking about Schemmel when he was at his weakest, hadn't been playing the character that long, didn't know much about DBZ yet...and even then it struck him as out-of-character. A total newbie to both DBZ and to voice acting thought it was out-of-character. That speaks volumes of how bad the writing for the original DBZ dub was.

While the corniness of those moments has been toned down in Kai due to better scripts and better acting, it's definitely still there a little bit. I struggle with how much to pin that on Schemmel, though. I still firmly believe that there are some scenes of DBZ that are corny even with the Japanese script intact verbatim. They're not nearly as numerous, but they're still there. And yes, I've watched those scenes in Japanese extensively as well, and even the acting there doesn't really save the corniness of those moments. For example, the healing tank scenes when Goku is healing while the others fight with Freeza. All we got, even in Japanese, was this tiresome, corny, non-stop repetition of, "What's going on!? It's a new power! The others are in danger! I have to leave, but I can't yet...!"

Sean Schemmel nails the screaming, raging Goku just perfectly, though. He occasionally struggles with the more quiet instances of anger, but he can also do those very well when he lowers his voice. I for one thought his Super Saiyan 4 voice should have been the voice he used for when Goku goes Super Saiyan 1. It would work perfect for those scenes that requires a more tranquil, focused anger. I'm hoping that's the voice he uses when Goku talks to Freeza in the episode immediately following his first transformation.

In spite of all that, I will agree that for the most part his "noticeable anger" is the weakest part of his portrayal.

This is an excellent analysis of Schemmel's strengths and weaknesses. Some instances of his modest anger do end up going a bit in the wrong direction (either way), but the number of them and the severity has massively dropped. I think most of his angry Goku does work, in it's own manner. He did some very interesting subtle manipulations to his Goku voice for the SSJ forms that increased as the number of them did so, and I wonder if he'll continue to use them (I thought they worked well, the way he described them), they gave his Goku another nice little flair of his own (any good actor's going to do the role as good as they can, but also try to add something unique to their own interpretation, something that doesn't take away from the performance).

He's definitely improved in his cheerful Goku, and every time I hear him get excited, I can't help but laugh along. He definitely found a way to keep the childish innocence to Goku when the time came to do so. Yet, his Goku isn't one dimension in tone, but changes with the character, which is key to making an enjoyable performance. Happy, Sad, Calm, Angry (even Smug once or twice for Goku), an actor needs to deliver the right emotion at the right time, and I think he does that excellently. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he handles SSJ Goku this time around. I imagine it will be somewhat close to his Burst Limit go, but even better, hopefully.

To be honest...this Kai dub really makes me want a full redub of the original series. I'd love to see such an accurate dub (maybe even more accurate by then) backed up by Kikuchi's score would be incredibly awesome.

But yeah, once again, I would have to insist we keep most of the cast as it is, and only modify when needed. I can feel for the other dubs of Kai having to deal with voice changes, if they're good, a cast should be kept for their fans.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

But I still hate Schemmel as Goku. He doesn't really capture the good-hearted "down home" personality that Goku has in the original Japanese series.

To each their own, I think he nails it. I'm particularly looking forward to the upcoming fight Goku has with Freeza in the new dub. My favorite of the original dub actors (Schemmel) and my favorite of the re-cast dub actors (Ayers)...it's gonna be heaven for me for the next couple episodes.

I think that's the one part he got absolutely right too. He almost had it in the redubs from the little I've heard but absolutely perfected it during Kai.

It's the bad anger acting that gets me. It ends up sounding like this fussy whining to me. It has been getting less and less like that since season 4 but it still persists to this day. I'm not sure if people are hearing the same thing I am and it's a little hard to explain fully. (That's not to say he's ALWAYS doing it in Kai, he's fixed a great deal of it but there's still bits and pieces where I can hear him fall into that fussy fake anger.)

I agree with this. While I wouldn't agree he 'nails it', Schemmel's 'casual goofy Gokou' is the part I've noticed the most improvement on. It's tolerable, and there are times where I really enjoy a scene with his interpretation (one of my favorites is when he's panicking to Dr. Briefs about why he needs to take off right away; I also kinda like that one next episode preview where he asks what Kaioh's social life has to do with him, but then I hear Kaioh's voice and it's hard to appreciate Schemmel again...). But when fight scenes come about, he still sounds too much like a forced superhero voice. And that's not Gokou. He's still too grunty, his anger doesn't sound legitimate, and his speeches still sound too...again, 'superhero'. I can't buy that as Gokou. The other aspect, however - the casual, dimwitted and good-hearted kid trapped in a man's body - marked improvement.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

But I still hate Schemmel as Goku. He doesn't really capture the good-hearted "down home" personality that Goku has in the original Japanese series.

To each their own, I think he nails it. I'm particularly looking forward to the upcoming fight Goku has with Freeza in the new dub. My favorite of the original dub actors (Schemmel) and my favorite of the re-cast dub actors (Ayers)...it's gonna be heaven for me for the next couple episodes.

I think it's more the script that throws me off, but more that he doesn't even attempt to convey the informal and hick-like vernacular that Goku is described to have in the original series. Schemmel's voice makes Goku seem quite proper and formal, which really throws me for a loop considering his background of being mostly uneducated.

But as for Ayers, i do agree with you. He does do a great job as Freeza, probably more so than Linda Young ever did, even though Young also did a considerable job.

[Mewzard]

I agree with this. While I wouldn't agree he 'nails it', Schemmel's 'casual goofy Goku' is the part I've noticed the most improvement on. It's tolerable, and there are times where I really enjoy a scene with his interpretation (one of my favorites is when he's panicking to Dr. Briefs about why he needs to take off right away; I also kinda like that one next episode preview where he asks what Kaioh's social life has to do with him, but then I hear Kaioh's voice and it's hard to appreciate Schemmel again...). But when fight scenes come about, he still sounds too much like a forced superhero voice. And that's not Goku. He's still too grunty, his anger doesn't sound legitimate, and his speeches still sound too...again, 'superhero'. I can't buy that as Goku. The other aspect, however - the casual, dimwitted and good-hearted kid trapped in a man's body - marked improvement.

...Maybe it's because I've been on a podcast dedicated to Green Lantern for the past 2 years, read comics for the past 5 years, and watched super hero cartoons for the past 15-18 years, but I am seriously getting tired of this false statement. Sean Schemmel's Goku does not sound like a superhero. At least, not one I've ever heard. And I've heard many interpretations of several big name superheroes, from Superman and Batman, to the X-Men and Spider-man. His Goku doesn't sound "superhero" in any stretch of the stereotype. Not in the campy Superfriends days, not in the gruff Batman: TAS way, not in the ridiculous The Dark Knight way, not in the 1940s Fleischer Superman way, etc.

You think Schemmel sounds grunty? Have you heard Nozawa's screams? Those clearly aren't in a person's natural range. They don't sound all that legitimate, I'd say, but you go with it, as it's in the moment. Do you want Goku's dub anger to sound like a girl straining her voice in a hissyfit? Because Schemmel's representation is far less painful to the ears, and ridiculous to the mind.

If you want to argue that there's some fault with Schemmel's Goku's anger, fine. But, for the love of God, don't just blindly refer to it as a "Superhero voice". It's just an ignorant, uninformed statement, and is rather annoying to those of us who like actual Superheroes, and just end up getting the stuff we loved lumped in with every single stereotype there is (many of which being inaccurate).

...Whew. Now that I've gotten that out of my system, I'm waiting for the Freeza fight with glee. I'm hoping that Ayres and Schemmel click in their roles, to a degree that allows us to have a nice back and forth that feels natural. What good was improved of Schemmel's side in BL, was lowered by one of Young's rougher performances, so with these two at it, I'm expecting more of an A game.

And as for the hick way of speaking...let's be honest, it's going to be hard to convey that without it coming off as a parody.

[Turtle Marked Stone]

Nowadays yes I agree, you couldn't go full on hick without everyone raising their eyebrows at the change. I think all of us really loved when Sean (or maybe it was written in the script) shortened his words like "nothin' or goin'" if he laid just a little heavier into that I could really get behind it. It would be enough to kind of portray Goku as an improper speakin' hick without going into the full on accent that would alienate a lot of the dub fans.

I'm not really sure what a "super hero" voice is either to be honest. Spider-Man doesn't sound like Batman who doesn't sound like The Flash. I can only assume you might mean too authoritative. I haven't heard that too much in Kai but my gosh was it in Z. Sean was almost playing Goku as the Great Saiyaman back in the old dub.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

Nowadays yes I agree, you couldn't go full on hick without everyone raising their eyebrows at the change. I think all of us really loved when Sean (or maybe it was written in the script) shortened his words like "nothin' or goin'" if he laid just a little heavier into that I could really get behind it. It would be enough to kind of portray Goku as an improper speakin' hick without going into the full on accent that would alienate a lot of the dub fans.

I agree.
I wouldn't really like him to have an accent either, but even dropping end letters like saying "nothin'" or an occasional "ain't" would've been more convincing than the vernacular that he portrayed for Goku.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Nowadays yes I agree, you couldn't go full on hick without everyone raising their eyebrows at the change. I think all of us really loved when Sean (or maybe it was written in the script) shortened his words like "nothin' or goin'" if he laid just a little heavier into that I could really get behind it. It would be enough to kind of portray Goku as an improper speakin' hick without going into the full on accent that would alienate a lot of the dub fans.

I agree.
I wouldn't really like him to have an accent either, but even dropping end letters like saying "nothin'" or an occasional "ain't" would've been more convincing than the vernacular that he portrayed for Goku.

That the writes portrayed, you mean. I like to make sure the blame is directed where it's due. I know a lot of people are upset that the Narrator still uses the phrase, "NEXT TIME on Dragon Ball Z Kai," but I still say the same thing--the writers are at fault for that.

[bkev]

"We're talking about Schemmel when he was at his weakest, hadn't been playing the character that long, didn't know much about DBZ yet...and even then it struck him as out-of-character. A total newbie to both DBZ and to voice acting thought it was out-of-character. That speaks volumes of how bad the writing for the original DBZ dub was."
Revisionist comments to get the fans on his side. Why? Because he can. I'm ust going to go ahead and call it now.

[penguintruth]

I no longer doubt the sincerity of Sean Schemmel to the role, but I still think he was the wrong choice for him. Unfortunatlely, there's often a gulf between sincerity and quality. He just doesn't have the right sound. He's a little too rough-sounding and comes across a little too hammy when trying to sound silly. In fact, that's sort of the thing. He's trying to sound silly a times. He has to try to do it. Goku doesn't seem to come as naturally to him as it does Nozawa. Nozawa has that delivery where it just all seems so genuine. And I don't even think it necessarily reflects that Schemmel is a terrible voice actor per se, just that he's not right for this particular role.

It's true that the script was the biggest obstacle to having a more accurate Goku, but I think it's naive to think of it as the only obstacle.

Has Schemmel improved? Clearly. Even besides the better script, he's improved. But is he a great Goku? No, I still don't think so.

[TheBlackPaladin]

"We're talking about Schemmel when he was at his weakest, hadn't been playing the character that long, didn't know much about DBZ yet...and even then it struck him as out-of-character. A total newbie to both DBZ and to voice acting thought it was out-of-character. That speaks volumes of how bad the writing for the original DBZ dub was."
Revisionist comments to get the fans on his side. Why? Because he can. I'm ust going to go ahead and call it now.

Except that comment was made before he had a site. Several years before.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

...Maybe it's because I've been on a podcast dedicated to Green Lantern for the past 2 years, read comics for the past 5 years, and watched super hero cartoons for the past 15-18 years, but I am seriously getting tired of this false statement. Sean Schemmel's Goku does not sound like a superhero. At least, not one I've ever heard. And I've heard many interpretations of several big name superheroes, from Superman and Batman, to the X-Men and Spider-man. His Goku doesn't sound "superhero" in any stretch of the stereotype. Not in the campy Superfriends days, not in the gruff Batman: TAS way, not in the ridiculous The Dark Knight way, not in the 1940s Fleischer Superman way, etc. ... If you want to argue that there's some fault with Schemmel's Goku's anger, fine. But, for the love of God, don't just blindly refer to it as a "Superhero voice". It's just an ignorant, uninformed statement, and is rather annoying to those of us who like actual Superheroes, and just end up getting the stuff we loved lumped in with every single stereotype there is (many of which being inaccurate).

I'm not a superhero fan. I wasn't meaning to imply I equate him to any particular superhero. But precisely because I am not a superhero fan, I think I'd consider my opinion to be what the general ignorant public would consider a 'superhero voice'. So yeah. My opinion as an ignorant and yours as an aficionado are going to be very different, but don't tell me that I'm 'wrong' in my assessment - Schemmel's Gokou is what I personally view as a 'superhero voice'. And that is not what Gokou should sound like. Admittedly he sounds much less 'superhero' in Kai than in the original season 3 recordings, owing a lot of that to the accurate script (he's not spouting speeches about being the light in the darkness anymore, thank God) and having become accustomed to the role. But I still hear that quality in his performance during battle scenes. Schemmel's Gokou sounds to me like a 'superhero' voice, by what I assess to be a 'superhero' voice, so please don't tell me I am 'wrong' about this - it's an opinion like any other, and from someone unfamiliar with actual superhero cartoons. I'm perfectly entitled to it. I'm not 'blindly' labeling anything. I'm labeling it based on my personal views on what I constitute as a 'superhero voice'. It's nowhere near the level of the Big Green guy, sure, but it's still more 'superhero' than 'Gokou' from where I'm standing.

And I never claimed Nozawa's performance was completely natural, either. There are plenty of times where her strained 'uaagh...ghhh...keehh...' sounds can be very irritating. But she's become the definitive Gokou voice to me and many other fans, and we're as willing to look past those faults as Schemmel fans are to look past his. I don't think anyone in either camp would call their ideal Gokou's performance as being perfect, so it's not as though we're ignoring their faults or pretending they don't exist. We simply enjoy the overall performance enough to be willing to look past those faults, because the good outweighs the bad.

[Mewzard]

I no longer doubt the sincerity of Sean Schemmel to the role, but I still think he was the wrong choice for him. Unfortunatlely, there's often a gulf between sincerity and quality. He just doesn't have the right sound. He's a little too rough-sounding and comes across a little too hammy when trying to sound silly. In fact, that's sort of the thing. He's trying to sound silly a times. He has to try to do it. Goku doesn't seem to come as naturally to him as it does Nozawa. Nozawa has that delivery where it just all seems so genuine. And I don't even think it necessarily reflects that Schemmel is a terrible voice actor per se, just that he's not right for this particular role.

It's true that the script was the biggest obstacle to having a more accurate Goku, but I think it's naive to think of it as the only obstacle.

Has Schemmel improved? Clearly. Even besides the better script, he's improved. But is he a great Goku? No, I still don't think so.

Has to force it? From all I've heard, his current Goku is as close to his natural voice as any role I've EVER heard from him. It's slightly lighter during the goofy moments, yes, but it is his voice. And from what I've seen from the guy through interviews, con videos of his interactions, his own music (from Jackin' Off In a Sock, Sweet Peanut Butter Freedom, Purple Vein), his own Parodies (Piss in a Bag, He-Man and the Homos of the Universe, Tough Shit), he's a very silly, goofy guy on his own. It fits with him perfectly.

Nozawa's Goku voice is, no doubt, somewhat of a stretch from her own, yet many love it. It's all a matter of preference.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

From all I've heard, his current Goku is as close to his natural voice as any role I've EVER heard from him.

Have to agree with this. The newest of the 'In-Scene' promos for Kai is a spot of him saying how he's the voice of Gokou and describing the character a bit, and why he likes him, intercut with clips from the series. Hearing Schemmel talking one second, and then a clip of Gokou the next, it really is pretty much just his natural voice with the tone he sees fit to a scene - there is a bit of a forced quality as though he has to say, 'I'm going to play up the silliness', and 'I'm pissed now, I have to express my rage', but on the whole it actually is his voice - compared to Sabat's Vegeta, which is obviously a forced and unnatural character voice 100% of the time.

[penguintruth]

I'm not saying he has to force Goku to sound like him, I'm saying he sounds forced being Goku.

[ohaimynameiserik]

I no longer doubt the sincerity of Sean Schemmel to the role, but I still think he was the wrong choice for him. Unfortunatlely, there's often a gulf between sincerity and quality. He just doesn't have the right sound. He's a little too rough-sounding and comes across a little too hammy when trying to sound silly. In fact, that's sort of the thing. He's trying to sound silly a times. He has to try to do it. Goku doesn't seem to come as naturally to him as it does Nozawa. Nozawa has that delivery where it just all seems so genuine. And I don't even think it necessarily reflects that Schemmel is a terrible voice actor per se, just that he's not right for this particular role.

It's true that the script was the biggest obstacle to having a more accurate Goku, but I think it's naive to think of it as the only obstacle.

Has Schemmel improved? Clearly. Even besides the better script, he's improved. But is he a great Goku? No, I still don't think so.

Your penguintruth has evolved into someone with respectful and constructive criticism!

[penguintruth]

Only because we haven't gone into Sean Schemmel as a person.

[ohaimynameiserik]

Well close enough.

I think Schemmel's Goku in Kai is solid, but I can totally see the points you make.

And come on... who's ever going to be on par with freaking Nozawa, anyway?

... Well maybe I should hold my tongue. We never thought it would happen with Freeza, but here we are.

Of course that last part's just my opinion.

[DemonRin]

I always got the "Superhero" Vibe from the script moreso than the voice itself.

"I am the Light in the darkness! Savior of the universe! Ally to good, nightmare to you!"

That's something typically "Superhero", though more corny superhero than serious superhero based on the way superheroes are written these days... Serious superhero sounds like this:

"I always feel like I'm living in a world made of cardboard. Always holding myself back, afraid to break something... break someone... But you can take it, can't you big guy?! What I think we have here is a rare opportunity for me to cut loose and show what I can REALLY do!"

Now if THAT were the caliber of writing the FUNi guys had in the beginning... maybe we'd have more accurate, yet awesome sounding scripts...