Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

...so a GT-based guidebook overrides a manga-based guidebook? Because manga-based guidebooks state Innocent Buu =< SK Buu, and an anime-based guidebook states that Gotenks is only "many times" stronger.

It doesn't override anything. "Many dozens of times" is "many times". It even fits with Toriyama's intention to come up with something stronger than Super Saiyan, which turned out to be Fusion, and it fits with all the implications in the manga that place base Gotenks above SS Goten & Trunks.

Why does GT mean anything? Are you going to use its x1.1 SS multiplier as well?

It's still x50 according to GT Perfect Files, Toei just follows an inconsistent logic about how gaps work. And I'm not saying that I follow everything from GT, I'm just saying that I take the multiplier for Gogeta as a fact because it is related with the manga in a way, since Gogeta is a character that could have existed in the manga.

But then again, you believe that the Fusion multiplier changes from form to form, so you shouldn't have any issue, since this is stated for SS4 Gogeta, not base Gogeta. Our opinions about the SS multipliers of Fusion characters are different in the first place.

[RandomGuy96]

I'd also like to note that the statement was that Gogeta is "perhaps" tens of times stronger than a regular Super Saiyan 4.

I simply don't factor in GT at all for anything but GT. Especially when we have this abundance of guidebooks based on the main series that imply it's not tens of times. Heck, even GT itself shows it not to be tens of times, but rather hundreds of times (Syn tanks a x10 Kamehameha from SS4 Goku, then states he gets 10 times stronger by absorbing the Dragon Balls, but still gets knocked away by SS4 Gogeta's aura).

That may be in the Perfect Files, but the series itself more than implied it was less than x3 ("..you haven't even been using half your power").

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'd also like to note that the statement was that Gogeta is "perhaps" tens of times stronger than a regular Super Saiyan 4.

You mean that maybe they are wrong an he is only a few times stronger? Yeah, not buying that they would put false information, it's just the way they wrote the guidebook.

I simply don't factor in GT at all for anything but GT. Especially when we have this abundance of guidebooks based on the main series that imply it's not tens of times. Heck, even GT itself shows it not to be tens of times, but rather hundreds of times (Syn tanks a x10 Kamehameha from SS4 Goku, then states he gets 10 times stronger by absorbing the Dragon Balls, but still gets knocked away by SS4 Gogeta's aura).

Over a hundred of times is dozens of times, and dozens of times is many times.

And again, the manga implies that base Gotenks is stronger than the SS kids, making him dozens of times stronger than the base kids. So no, the manga doesn't really contradict this.

That may be in the Perfect Files, but the series itself more than implied it was less than x3 ("..you haven't even been using half your power").

Rild just says that base Goku is less than half of SS Goku's power... which really is less than half. I don't see how this implies a less than x3 multiplier.

[RandomGuy96]

No, just that it's not nearly as concrete as it looks. The guidebook itself isn't even sure if it's really tens of times.

This all comes back to "if it meant hundreds/tens of times, why not just say that?". I for one have never heard someone say "many times" or "tens of times" when they really meant a much greater number.

The manga itself doesn't EXPLICITLY contradict it (...doesn't contradict my different multipliers theories though either...). However, it does pretty heavily imply Gotenks is not many times stronger than Goku in many places. As do the guidebooks. And, technically, the GT-related guidebook is the only thing that even implies (and it does only imply it, only saying that it 'may' be the case) the fusion multiplier is "tens of times" (aside from the SS Gotenks > Fat Buu statements, of course).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, just that it's not nearly as concrete as it looks. The guidebook itself isn't even sure if it's really tens of times.

Everything is worded like that in the GT Perfect Files. "Does Planet Saiya exist?!" "Is Super Baby 2 related to SS3?!" "Were Saiyans originally Oozarus?!

This all comes back to "if it meant hundreds/tens of times, why not just say that?". I for one have never heard someone say "many times" or "tens of times" when they really meant a much greater number.

GT doesn't imply that Gogeta is hundreds of times, only over a hundred times. Which is dozens of times.

And when they want to be very generic and not give a number, they will say "many times" instead of "dozens of times".

The manga itself doesn't EXPLICITLY contradict it (...doesn't contradict my different multipliers theories though either...). However, it does pretty heavily imply Gotenks is not many times stronger than Goku in many places. As do the guidebooks. And, technically, the GT-related guidebook is the only thing that even implies (and it does only imply it, only saying that it 'may' be the case) the fusion multiplier is "tens of times" (aside from the SS Gotenks > Fat Buu statements, of course).

I disagree about the heavy implications in the manga that Gohan & Gotenks aren't many times stronger than Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah...? I just see those in the same way I see the "tens of times" stronger comment. They may or may not actually be true. I assume most of them aren't. Do you have the exact line where Baby's forms are compared to the SS ones, by the way?

Actually, it does. Omega is faaaaaar over 100 times stronger than SS4 Goku (since he tanked the x10 Kamehameha while at 10% of his current power), and SS4 Gogeta stomped him easily, meaning he'd at least be a few hundred times stronger than a regular SS4.

I don't believe they were just trying to be generic in that guidebook, especially since "tens of times" is similarly cryptic and easier if that was really their intention.

Okay.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Do you have the exact line where Baby's forms are compared to the SS ones, by the way?

It isn't worded like I made it sound like after all:

Super Baby is the final transformed state of Vegeta-Baby!! It has 2 types: Strongest Form 1, where Vegeta’s characteristics still remain, and Strongest Form 2, which resembles Super Saiyan 3. His final technique is the Revenge Death Ball, a mass of evil ki which might be called an evil Genki-Dama!!

More from GT Perfect Files Vol. #1 here.

Actually, it does. Omega is faaaaaar over 100 times stronger than SS4 Goku (since he tanked the x10 Kamehameha while at 10% of his current power), and SS4 Gogeta stomped him easily, meaning he'd at least be a few hundred times stronger than a regular SS4.

Vegeta stomped Kiwi, Dodoria, and Zarbon, and he wasn't even x2 stronger than them. Gohan stomped Cell in an around x2 gap.

I don't believe they were just trying to be generic in that guidebook, especially since "tens of times" is similarly cryptic and easier if that was really their intention.

I'm talking about the guidebook with Gotenks. Every official media is afraid to directly compare Goku with Gohan & Gotenks after Goku returned as the main protagonist (M13 gives the villain weird powers, and Goku a new special technique, BoG has a villain more powerful than Vegetto and has them making him angry so that they won't get to his attention, and then introduces SSGod to make Goku #1, GT literally make Ultimate & Fusion vanish, and then introduces the SS4 to make Goku #1, and the guidebooks have vague statements and never compare them directly).

[RandomGuy96]

Interesting. It seems that validates my theory about Baby's form being equivalent to the SS ones.

That wasn't the same as what Gogeta did to Omega. There's ownage and then there's... that. Plus, Cui, Dodoria, and Zarbon had a loss of shuuki and yuuki when facing Vegeta.

The guidebooks do state Gohan and Gotenks are stronger than Goku, just with indirect statements like saying Super Buu lost power when Mr. Buu was removed, Goten and Trunks are equal to CG Gohan and many times weaker than Gotenks, Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, etc.

Something else I recently noticed: the title of chapter 475 of Dragon Ball is "Majin Buu's True Value Begins to Appear" (or something like that). This is the chapter where Fat Buu was fighting SS3 Goku. This basically confirms two things: one, that fatty did do a power-up even after his last stated one against Vegeta (as he's only now beginning to show his true ability), and two, that his power did indeed rise before he split (because he's only beginning to show his true value against Goku, which would mean he still he has more to show).

EDIT: disregard that last paragraph.

[dbgtFO]

Super Baby is the final transformed state of Vegeta-Baby!! It has 2 types: Strongest Form 1, where Vegeta’s characteristics still remain, and Strongest Form 2, which resembles Super Saiyan 3.

More from GT Perfect Files Vol. #1 here.

It's funny to see, that it was already something, which had been implied in official material, before I got the idea that Baby's transformations were like Super Saiyan.
Sometimes the guidebooks really can surprise you.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That wasn't the same as what Gogeta did to Omega. There's ownage and then there's... that. Plus, Cui, Dodoria, and Zarbon had a loss of shuuki and yuuki when facing Vegeta.

I'm aware that the difference is way larger between SS4 Gogeta & Super Yi Xing Long, I'm just saying that there is no need for Gogeta to be hundreds or dozens of times stronger than him to stomp him like that.

The guidebooks do state Gohan and Gotenks are stronger than Goku, just with indirect statements like saying Super Buu lost power when Mr. Buu was removed, Goten and Trunks are equal to CG Gohan and many times weaker than Gotenks, Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, etc.

That's my point, they don't have a direct statement, even in the manga the only direct statement is that SS Gotenks (pre) is gonna be stronger than SS3 Goku, but then we learn later that Goku was hiding his true power.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm aware that the difference is way larger between SS4 Gogeta & Super Yi Xing Long, I'm just saying that there is no need for Gogeta to be hundreds or dozens of times stronger than him to stomp him like that.

No, but since Omega is already well over a hundred times stronger than SS4 Goku, Gogeta needs to be hundreds, not tens, of times stronger than Goku to do what he did.

That's my point, they don't have a direct statement, even in the manga the only direct statement is that SS Gotenks (pre) is gonna be stronger than SS3 Goku, but then we learn later that Goku was hiding his true power.

Stating Super Buu, who got smashed by Gotenks and Gohan, is stronger than Pure Buu, who beat Goku and Vegeta, doesn't count as a statement of Gotenks/Gohan > Goku? I'll admit that most of the other ones can be taken as indirect or vague, but that one is pretty clear.

Actually, the manga has another rather direct statement:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, but since Omega is already well over a hundred times stronger than SS4 Goku, Gogeta needs to be hundreds, not tens, of times stronger than Goku to do what he did.

Not really. Here are my numbers on them, is there any issue? Fusion is assumed to be a x160 multiplier (for everyone & every form of anyone, if done successfully of course).

SS4 Goku - 340.000.000.000.000
Super Yi Xing Long - 3.700.000.000.000.000
SS4 Gogeta - 54.400.000.000.000.000

Stating Super Buu, who got smashed by Gotenks and Gohan, is stronger than Pure Buu, who beat Goku and Vegeta, doesn't count as a statement of Gotenks/Gohan > Goku? I'll admit that most of the other ones can be taken as indirect or vague, but that one is pretty clear.

It does count, but it's not a direct statement that says "Gohan & Gotenks are stronger than Goku". There are only direct statements comparing Boo with Goku and Boo with Gohan & Gotenks, which implies that Gohan & Gotenks are stronger than Goku. But you won't find any direct statement that compares Goku with Gohan and/or Gotenks.

I'm not saying of course that Gohan & Gotenks > Goku isn't a fact, I'm just pointing out that the official sources are afraid to admit it.

[RandomGuy96]

That's a lot of zeroes.

Anyway, Omega is far too weak. He tanked a x10 Kamehameha from SS4 Goku before he absorbed the Dragon Balls. If SS4 Goku is a 1, Syn should be a 15, and then absorbing the Dragon Balls would boost him to a 150.

But it says that someone weaker than Gotenks and Gohan is still stronger than Goku. And in the manga Goku directly says that someone weaker than Gotenks and Gohan is way stronger than himself. How are those not direct enough?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Anyway, Omega is far too weak. He tanked a x10 Kamehameha from SS4 Goku before he absorbed the Dragon Balls. If SS4 Goku is a 1, Syn should be a 15, and then absorbing the Dragon Balls would boost him to a 150.

Not gonna disagree there, though I think that Super Yi Xing Long could have been a 12 as well (but that's not what my numbers say, my numbers put him at around 10,8, but it's not far from 12 or 15). But my point was how Goku compares with Gogeta, and how Gogeta compares with Yi Xing Long. You have Gogeta dozens of times stronger than Goku, and Gogeta many times stronger than Yi Xing Long, strong enough to stomp him like he did.

But it says that someone weaker than Gotenks and Gohan is still stronger than Goku. And in the manga Goku directly says that someone weaker than Gotenks and Gohan is way stronger than himself. How are those not direct enough?

It's still an indirect statement. Comparing A with B, then B with C, to eventually conclude how A compares with C isn't a direct statement.

[RandomGuy96]

Not gonna disagree there, though I think that Super Yi Xing Long could have been a 12 as well (but that's not what my numbers say, my numbers put him at around 10,8, but it's not far from 12 or 15). But my point was how Goku compares with Gogeta, and how Gogeta compares with Yi Xing Long. You have Gogeta dozens of times stronger than Goku, and Gogeta many times stronger than Yi Xing Long, strong enough to stomp him like he did.

My point is Gogeta has to be at least a few hundred times stronger than Goku because Syn/Omega was already established as well over 100 times stronger than Goku. He tanks a x10 Kamehameha (over ten times Goku's normal power), then states that after absorbing the Dragon Balls his power rose ten-fold.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He doesn't have too, he only has to be over 100 times stronger. Gogeta could have been 230 times stronger than Goku (random number), and many dozens of times is a fitting description than hundreds of times, because it's just a little over a couple of hundreds.

[RandomGuy96]

He doesn't have too, he only has to be over 100 times stronger. Gogeta could have been 230 times stronger than Goku (random number), and many dozens of times is a fitting description than hundreds of times, because it's just a little over a couple of hundreds.

No, in that case, "hundreds of times" would be a far more fitting description, and better to say than the somewhat misleading tens of times.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I disagree. 23 dozens of times is better than 2,3 hundreds of times, if they had used the numbers.

[MathNerd]

Hi all. I'm (obviously) new here.

I am going to post version #1 of my Dragonball power level list. I invite everyone to be as critical as they want, since my goal is to make these as good as possible. Note: I will be, in general, ignoring any Daiz PLs. I do not feel obligated to use them, as some of them make no sense at all (i.e. Nappa at 4,000). I have used them in a couple places if they fit well into my list though.

Dragon Ball

Emperor Pilaf Saga

Goku: 10
- Hungry: 8
- Oozaru: 100
- Without Tail: 9

Master Roshi: 45
- Buff: 56

Yamcha: 9

Chichi: 5.3

Ox King: 35

First World Martial Arts Championship Saga

Goku: 9
- After Training: 40
- Tail Regrown: 48
- Oozaru: 480
- Hungry/Tired: 24

Krillin: 6.8
- After Training: 25

Master Roshi: 50
- Buff: 63
- Exhausted: 18

Yamcha: 20

Namu: 46

Giran: 22

Ranfan: 10

Bacterian: 9

Red Ribbon Army Saga

Goku: 48

Colonel Silver: 12.5

Sergeant Metallic: 48

Ninja Murasaki: 15

Buyon: 80

General White: 7.5

Android #8: 60

General Blue Saga

Goku: 55

Master Roshi: 60

Krillin: 27

Pirate Robot: 33

General Blue: 41

Commander Red Saga

Goku: 55
- Post Karin Training: 105

Colonel Yellow: 6

Bora: 37

Taopaipai: 90

Officer Black: 8
- Battle Jacket: 85

Fortuneteller Baba Saga

Goku: 105

Krillin: 30
- Post Blood Loss: 6

Yamcha: 24

Dracula Man: 11

Invisible Man: 13

Mummy Man: 57

Ackman: 65

Grandpa Gohan: 100

Tien Shinhan Saga

Goku (Holding Back): 120
- Full Match Strength: 132
- Full Power: 145

Tien: 145

Yamcha: 108

Krillin: 119

Master Roshi: 139

Chaotzu: 100

King Chappa: 45

Tant Put Put: 50

King Piccolo Saga

Goku (Fatigued): 50
- Full Power: 150
- After Ultra Divine Water: 260

Tambourine: 140

Yajirobe: 138

Cymbal: 120

Giran: 22

King Piccolo (Old): 205
- Young: 260

Master Roshi: 139

Chaotzu: 100

Tien: 145

Drum: 160

Piccolo Jr. Saga

Goku: 260
- After Kami's Training: 304
- Weights Removed: 378

Mr. Popo: 320

Kami: 350

Piccolo: 371

King Chappa: 50

Krillin: 187

Tien: 227

Yamcha: 169

Chaotzu: 140

Yajirobe: 152

Cyborg Tao: 190

Chichi: 115

Shen: 315

[Vice]

Rather than a power levels list I went with a tier list that pretty much covers all of DBZ. Obviously the difference between each tier isn't equal.

TIER 1
Super Saiyan Vegetto

TIER 2
Vegetto
Super Buu-han

TIER 3
Super Buu-tenks
Mystic Gohan

TIER 4
Buff Buu
Super Buu-colo
Super Buu
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gotenks

TIER 5
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Kid Buu

TIER 6
Fat Buu
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Majin Vegeta
Evil Buu
Mr. Buu
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan Cell Games
Super Perfect Cell
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan

TIER 7
Perfect Cell
Super Saiyan Gohan Cell Games
Super Saiyan Goku Cell Games
Super Saiyan Gohan Buu Saga
Dabura
Super Saiyan Vegeta Cell Games
Super Saiyan Trunks Cell Games
Cell Jr.

TIER 8
Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks
Ultra Super Saiyan Vegeta
Super Saiyan Trunks Cell Saga
Super Saiyan Vegeta Cell Saga
Supreme Kai
Semi-Perfect Cell
Piccolo Cell Games/Buu Saga
Super Saiyan Trunks (kid)
Super Saiyan Goten

TIER 9
Imperfect Cell
Android 16
Piccolo Cell Saga
Android 17
Android 18

TIER 10
Super Saiyan Vegeta Android Saga
Super Saiyan Goku Android Saga
Super Saiyan Trunks Android Saga
Piccolo Android Saga

TIER 11
Super Saiyan Goku Trunks Saga
Super Saiyan Trunks Trunks Saga
Super Saiyan Goku Freeza Saga
Mecha Freeza
King Kold
Freeza
Android 19
Dr. Gero
Goku Freeza Saga
Yakon
Pui-Pui
Kibitto

TIER 12
Gohan Android Saga
Vegeta Trunks Saga
Piccolo Trunks Saga
Freeza (3rd Form)
Vegeta Freeza Saga
Piccolo Freeza Saga
Freeza (2nd Form)

TIER 13
Freeza (1st Form)
Krillin Android Saga/Cell Saga/Buu Saga
Tien Android Saga/Cell Saga/Buu Saga
Yamcha Android Saga/Cell Saga/Buu Saga
Gohan Freeza Saga/Trunks Saga
Goku Ginyu Saga
Vegeta (Ozaru)
Captain Ginyu

TIER 14
Tien Trunks Saga
Krillin Trunks Saga
Yamcha Trunks Saga
Jheese
Burter
Recoome
Nail
Tien Freeza Saga
Yamcha Freeza Saga
Vegeta Ginyu Saga
Gohan Ginyu Saga
Krillin Freeza Saga
Zarbon
Dodoria
Cui
Krillin Ginyu Saga
Goku Vegeta Saga
Vegeta Vegeta Saga

TIER 15
Nappa
King Kai
Namekian Fighters
Freeza's Soldiers (average)
Piccolo Vegeta Saga
Gohan Vegeta Saga/Namek Saga
Krillin Vegeta Saga/Namek Saga
Tien Vegeta Saga
Yamcha Vegeta Saga
Gohan Raditz Saga
Raditz
Saibamen

TIER 16
Chaozu Vegeta Saga
Yajirobe Vegeta Saga
Goku Raditz Saga
Piccolo Raditz Saga
Tien Raditz Saga
Krillin Raditz Saga
Yamcha Raditz Saga
Chaozu Raditz Saga
Master Roshi Raditz Saga
Yajirobe Raditz Saga

TIER 17
Yamu
Spopovitch
Videl
Mr. Satan