Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

All in all, it won't change the fact that Super lacks proper exposition.

Fucking this.

I'd take anything this stage. A short speech, a brief mental dialogue, a throwaway line, a fucking aura... just anything. Please, Super, give us something substantial to work with here. It's GT all over again.

Super is just some dumbass dream world. Suddenly everything makes sense. God Satan is the reality world as it makes a million times more sense than either Super or GT.

[Chiki]

And yeah -- I can't buy a "two base form" theory, as it just doesn't seem like something any viewer of the show would conclude unless they were already steeped in the odd jargon of power debates. It's way too complicated for either Toriyama or Toei to introduce unexplained.

I don't think it's complicated at all, there's just 4 forms (Base, SS, SSG Base, SSB) instead of 3 (Base w/ SSG, SS w/ SSG, SSB).

What is even more complicated is what the f is SS w/ SSG? Isn't that just SSB? Apparently not according to you guys. So you have that to explain to us too.

If you think about it carefully, the 2 Bases theory solves a lot more problems than any other view. What is even more complicated is how:

1. Piccolo got such a ridiculous power boost after RoF.
2. Buu was considered to be one of the strongest fighters despite never training
3. How can Base Goku keep up with Hit when SS Cabba, whose base according to you guys is equal to Base Goku, can't even do any damage to SS Vegeta's head at point blank range?
4. Why Goku just doesn't turn Super Saiyan instead of SSB (someone else said this)
5. The difference between SS w/ SSG and SSB.

2 Bases theory solves a lot more problems, therefore it's the simpler view, period.

But that isn't a view at all. If the two base theory was real they'd have made that clear in this episode. He didn't power up at all, he didn't say anything, nobody else said anything.

It was a decent theory early on under the assumption that later it would be explained, that chance has come and gone now.

I don't know why you keep repeating this tbh awful argument even though it's been addressed multiple times. There are a lot of things on your side of the view that haven't been explained either (how Goku lost most of his SSG power in Base according to you) but I don't think that's a good argument, so I don't say you're false! Don't say that the bad writing in Super falsifies my view, because if you do, then there is just as much reason, if not more, to believe that your view is false too.

3. After the fight he's more powerful than before but not as powerful as during the Beerus fight because seemingly the God power goes somewhat dormant.

Toriyama already said this was wrong and he can draw on his SSG power at any time.

The people who disagree with the two bases theory aren't giving any good arguments at all to show that it's wrong. The only argument most people keep repeating is that "well it hasn't been addressed, so it must be wrong!!!" But we all know Super has pretty bad writing. If you think the two bases view is wrong, then you have a lot to explain: why wasn't Piccolo's power boost addressed? etc.

[Cipher]

1. Piccolo got such a ridiculous power boost after RoF.
2. Buu was considered to be one of the strongest fighters despite never training
3. How can Base Goku keep up with Hit when SS Cabba, whose base according to you guys is equal to Base Goku, can't even do any damage to SS Vegeta's head at point blank range?
4. Why Goku just doesn't turn Super Saiyan instead of SSB (someone else said this)
5. The difference between SS w/ SSG and SSB.

1. I don't think he did.
2. Which means this isn't a problem either? Why would this even be a problem in the first place?
3. Jury's out on Cabbba. He can either be in the range of the base Saiyans, or Vegeta was going a bit easy. It's clear, actually, from that punch, that there's a gulf between him and Vegeta still, when they're both Super Saiyans at least.
4. I just have zero problem with that, given Toei's long history of not being totally strict about when which form would be brought out--Goku can keep up in base fine enough while he tests Hit out, so whatever. Meta answer, but that's my experience as a viewer.
5. That's admittedly pretty unclear and could be cleared up with a general difference between using god-ki and not, but I don't think that's going to be the case. Even in F, no one commented on not being able to sense Goku in base, so it'd be a pretty haphazard explanation anyway (sometime he's stronger in his base form!). More info on that would be appreciated, though, for sure.

[Chiki]

1. Piccolo got such a ridiculous power boost after RoF.
2. Buu was considered to be one of the strongest fighters despite never training
3. How can Base Goku keep up with Hit when SS Cabba, whose base according to you guys is equal to Base Goku, can't even do any damage to SS Vegeta's head at point blank range?
4. Why Goku just doesn't turn Super Saiyan instead of SSB (someone else said this)
5. The difference between SS w/ SSG and SSB.

1. I don't think he did.
2. Which means this isn't a problem either? Why would this even be a problem in the first place?
3. Jury's out on Cabbba. He can either be in the range of the base Saiyans, or Vegeta was going a bit easy. It's clear, actually, from that punch, that there's a gulf between him and Vegeta still, when they're both Super Saiyans at least.
4. I just have zero problem with that, given Toei's long history of not being totally strict about when which form would be brought out--Goku can keep up in base fine enough while he tests Hit out, so whatever. Meta answer, but that's my experience as a viewer.
5. That's admittedly pretty unclear and could be cleared up with a general difference between using god-ki and not, but I don't think that's going to be the case. Even in F, no one commented on not being able to sense Goku in base, so it'd be a pretty haphazard explanation anyway (sometime he's stronger in his base form!). More info on that would be appreciated, though, for sure.

1. He must have, because Assault Form Frost > Base Goku and Piccolo is around Final Form Frost in terms of strength. If Base Goku is SSG level as Toriyama himself said, then Piccolo is above SSG Goku. Whoops. He went from Cell Junior level or slightly above to being stronger than Base Goku w/ SSG power.

There is absolutely no way to reconcile the idea that Piccolo did not get a power boost and that Base Goku is SSG level.

2. Because Goku wanted Buu over Piccolo, so Buu > Piccolo and according to some of you guys Piccolo is above Base Goku w/ SSG power? How did Buu become stronger than Piccolo without training?

3. ? Vegeta said to himself that they were equals in base. Why would he lie to himself in his own head?

4. I can use a reply like this against others as well ("Goku's change in power in Base was never mentioned. I have zero problem with that because Toei writes poorly.").

You're likely going to say Base Goku w/ SSG power isn't god tier, but Toriyama himself said Goku can draw upon all of his SSG power, so that view is just false.

[Cipher]

1. He must have, because Assault Form Frost > Base Goku and Piccolo is around Final Form Frost in terms of strength. If Base Goku is SSG level as Toriyama himself said, then Piccolo is above SSG Goku. Whoops. He went from Cell Junior level or slightly above to being stronger than Base Goku w/ SSG power.

Piccolo asks Goku if he stands a chance before fighting Frost. Goku tells him no, not really.

He then spends the entire fight dodging and trying to charge the Makankosappo. Nothing in dialogue actions indicate he's anywhere near Frost. If you think he's portrayed as reasonably hanging in -- again, leeway in portrayals, and also Frost has been considerably weakened by Goku.

Regardless, everything in the script tells us they're not in the same league.

You're likely going to say Base Goku w/ SSG power isn't god tier, but Toriyama himself said Goku can draw upon all of his SSG power, so that view is just false.

I'm saying Goku can absolutely be that strong in base. That's his full base power. The only thing that implies in terms of what we've seen in the tournament is that Cabba is (probably) really strong in base. Which isn't a big deal.

That does create some weirdness if he's truly matched in base against Vegeta but then outclassed with they're both Super Saiyans, so -- either Vegeta's going light from the start, or there's a big difference because Vegeta starts to power up into Blue, or is just more capable as a Super Saiyan -- whatever. That one's a bit weird, but not so weird it requires assuming there's an entirely different base "form" the characters are using, which doesn't really help with that scene either. Personally, I chalk it up to either him restraining himself for most of the fight, or there just being a huge difference between the power Vegeta can tap into as a Super Saiyan -- having used the form for years -- and what Cabba can muster, having just learned it.

Maybe Super's problem isn't that big as people make it. It's the fans that distort, chew, spit and chew again, making everything messier. Were I obviously include myself.

Yeah, this. Everything seems to line up pretty well for me, in casual viewing, and then I pop in here and am like, "Two whats? Why? Piccolo has to be stronger than Boo now? What??" Again, missing the forest.

[LightBing]

Regarding Goku not turning SSJ, he's trying not to spend energy.
Even if SSJ is mastered, it would still tire him will fighting to a greater degree than base. Hit allowed him to fight that way. It's the same thing as Vegeta not turning SSJB against Magetta. Everyone is trying to save energy. The show is actually being consistent in this regard. Goku did say he's holding back and Hit said the same.

I understand the sentiment that it would be better if Goku was SSJ. But being base is the best way to save energy and clearly Goku isn't trying to win yet.

The hyperbole about Super being a mess, power wise, are exaggerated. The show isn't perfect (not even close), but they did had Whis make a direct power statement about were Goku and Vegeta stood. The problem was the RoF arc which, lacks any power mentions. This current arc feeds of the previous arc, making it hard to pinpoint were everybody stands.

I must emphasize that the main discussion for the last 30 or 40 or more pages, are the two bases theory's. When we have actual proof that post-BoG, the Saiyans never had God Ki in base and the direct statement from Whis. This kinda reminds me of people rejecting Beerus line, about Goku being weaker than Freeza in base.
Maybe Super's problem isn't that big as people make it. It's the fans that distort, chew, spit and chew again, making everything messier. Were I obviously include myself.

[Skar]

Hello was there any indication that Piccolo and Gohan trained in the manga? It seems too important to leave out of the manga if it was written by Toriyama. That could be evidence for the two base theory unless we're going to assume Piccolo reached God tier within the few days before the tournament.

I would go with SSJB Goku and Vegeta/Hit > Mr. Buu > normal SSJ Goku and Vegeta > everyone else at the tournament.

There's no indication that Piccolo is "god-tier." He spends his fight dodging a weakened character who we're told is far stronger than him.

I agree with you there. I've been hearing some people say that Piccolo surpassed Vegetto within those few months. We don't even know if that scene of him training with Gohan was filler or not. I would argue he's still weaker than FPSSJ Goku from the Cell Games since there's no indication he improved much since then.

[Bullza]

What is even more complicated is what the f is SS w/ SSG? Isn't that just SSB? Apparently not according to you guys. So you have that to explain to us too.

Base form is their normal power with a portion of God power.

Super Saiyan is their normal power multiplied by 50x still with a portion of God power.

Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan with all of the God power channeled into it. It's also at least 8x stronger than SSJ.

What is even more complicated is how:

Well they aren't that complicated.

1. Base Goku/Vegeta isn't God tier. So Piccolo didn't have a ridiculous boost. It'd still be a lot but nowhere to the same extent.

2. Kinda the same as above. Buu wouldn't be drastically weaker or anything.

3. Base Goku knew Hits abilities so he was able to nullify them. And once again nothing suggests Hit at that point was as durable as SSJ Vegeta because SSJB Vegeta never touched him.

4. Why didn't Goku turn Super Saiyan against Botamo or Frost from the get go? Why didn't Vegeta turn Super Saiyan against Magetta or Cabba from the get go? Same reason.

5. Which as I said above. SSJB has to be at least 8x stronger than SSJ otherwise a hypothetical SSJ3 Cabba would have been a match for SSJB Vegeta and that just ain't happening for a couple reasons.

[TheMikado]

All in all, it won't change the fact that Super lacks proper exposition.

Fucking this.

I'd take anything this stage. A short speech, a brief mental dialogue, a throwaway line, a fucking aura... just anything. Please, Super, give us something substantial to work with here. It's GT all over again.

I hate to always be the GT defense force (No I don't).
But GT was NEVER this bad.

Even SSJ4 made sense being stronger than the x400 base of SSJ3
Because it was the Oozaru multiplier (10) X SSJ (50) = SSJ4 X500

In either case I think I will exit out of this conversation until the new episode has aired and the manga released. I can't wait to see what happens in the manga and hopefully we get more exposition there. Until then good luck brave souls. I've had all the power level discussion I can take.

[Bansho64]

All in all, it won't change the fact that Super lacks proper exposition.

Fucking this.

I'd take anything this stage. A short speech, a brief mental dialogue, a throwaway line, a fucking aura... just anything. Please, Super, give us something substantial to work with here. It's GT all over again.

Agreed. It's hard to tell how strong the characters are in Super. Almost everything is left ambiguous. Hell, I can't even tell how strong Goku and Vegeta are and they're the main characters.

[DragonHermit]

3. How can Base Goku keep up with Hit when SS Cabba, whose base according to you guys is equal to Base Goku, can't even do any damage to SS Vegeta's head at point blank range?

Goku knew Hit's tricks and Vegeta didn't. Vegeta had nothing to work with. It's not just about "power".

I love when people complain about the simplicity of power in DB, and that's it's too linear and straightforward. When Toriyama adds complex layers to fighting ability, all of a sudden it makes no sense

Agreed. It's hard to tell how strong the characters are in Super. Almost everything is left ambiguous. Hell, I can't even tell how strong Goku and Vegeta are and they're the main characters.

They're right below Beerus...

[SansrivaaL]

I am still weirded out by this, why the hell was Beerus surprised that Goku found a way to counter Hit's timejump move? so only Whis knows how to counter it then? if so even if Vegeta found out how his trick works I doubt he would be able to counter it like Goku did if Beerus himself was even surprised by how Goku did it. The look on Vegeta's face when Goku counters it says it all tho. I could be wrong still being 2 steps ahead of your opponent is easier said than done, its like Goku has a mini precognition

[dbgtFO]

I agree with you there. I've been hearing some people say that Piccolo surpassed Vegetto within those few months. We don't even know if that scene of him training with Gohan was filler or not. I would argue he's still weaker than FPSSJ Goku from the Cell Games since there's no indication he improved much since then.

Yes, that's pretty much the crux right there.
At this point it's hard to believe anything other than Toei wanting to give us some fanservice meant to portray Gohan as actually wanting to train again, so he could at least become strong enough to protect his family after RoF, unintentionally giving people some material to claim Piccolo is now thousands of times stronger.

[Sora Saiyan]

I am still weirded out by this, why the hell was Beerus surprised that Goku found a way to counter Hit's timejump move? so only Whis knows how to counter it then? if so even if Vegeta found out how his trick works I doubt he would be able to counter it like Goku did if Beerus himself was even surprised by how Goku did it. The look on Vegeta's face when Goku counters it says it all tho. I could be wrong still being 2 steps ahead of your opponent is easier said than done, its like Goku has a mini precognition

Maybe Goku is closer to getting his body to move without the need to think about it than Vegeta or Beerus? It'd be cool if Toriyama decided to bring that back up.

[Low Tone G]

I am still weirded out by this, why the hell was Beerus surprised that Goku found a way to counter Hit's timejump move? so only Whis knows how to counter it then? if so even if Vegeta found out how his trick works I doubt he would be able to counter it like Goku did if Beerus himself was even surprised by how Goku did it. The look on Vegeta's face when Goku counters it says it all tho. I could be wrong still being 2 steps ahead of your opponent is easier said than done, its like Goku has a mini precognition

Maybe Goku is closer to getting his body to move without the need to think about it than Vegeta or Beerus? It'd be cool if Toriyama decided to bring that back up.

More than likely that's the case! (I hope so)

[TheMikado]

3. How can Base Goku keep up with Hit when SS Cabba, whose base according to you guys is equal to Base Goku, can't even do any damage to SS Vegeta's head at point blank range?

Goku knew Hit's tricks and Vegeta didn't. Vegeta had nothing to work with. It's not just about "power".

I love when people complain about the simplicity of power in DB, and that's it's too linear and straightforward. When Toriyama adds complex layers to fighting ability, all of a sudden it makes no sense

Agreed. It's hard to tell how strong the characters are in Super. Almost everything is left ambiguous. Hell, I can't even tell how strong Goku and Vegeta are and they're the main characters.

They're right below Beerus...

That's not an accurate means of measurement when you start at the 10 yard line and move the goal back 100 yards because "F it they're too close to the goal, we need to extend the game"

Also established lore is that if there is too great of a power gap you can't even do damage or hurt the guy unless surpressed. This one is easily resolved by saying hit was just surpressed but it sucks that we have to infer that information because it causes confusion in the narrative.

[TheMikado]

I agree with you there. I've been hearing some people say that Piccolo surpassed Vegetto within those few months. We don't even know if that scene of him training with Gohan was filler or not. I would argue he's still weaker than FPSSJ Goku from the Cell Games since there's no indication he improved much since then.

Yes, that's pretty much the crux right there.
At this point it's hard to believe anything other than Toei wanting to give us some fanservice meant to portray Gohan as actually wanting to train again, so he could at least become strong enough to protect his family after RoF, unintentionally giving people some material to claim Piccolo is now thousands of times stronger.

Bingo. Look, I've made it clear I don't like Super but it's not because it's technically bad. It's because the fan service levels are off the charts. Everything reads like some Dragonball AF fan fiction.

God of Destruction comes of out nowhere for some BS reason and challenges Goku.
Turns out he's been the secret reason for all things in Z he's just been asleep this whole time.
To Fight him Goku gets UBER strong and becomes a SSJ God!
Freeza comes back from the dead and now have a SSJ Like form to rival their new God! powers.
Plus were gonna make it blue to match AF color schemes!
Now we're gonna give Vegeta the same power up off screen!
Plus Piccolo gets a crazy power boost in a fight he would never to able to last 2 secs in otherwise. Despite it appearing he got wreaked by a far weaker version of the same enemy last arc.

I love power level discussions but the random fan service makes it tough to have that conversation.

[VegettoEX]

I understand the irony/hypocrisy of me, as an administrator, tossing a sarcastic comment into the mix of a whole slew of sarcastic comments that have been reported:

But could we please continue a power level discussion without constantly having sarcastic, dismissive, asinine posts reported over and over? Is it even possible? Can you folks even have this conversation?

I'm not convinced it's possible. You're going to need to prove me wrong, because we're very close to the point where this discussion will be forbidden, again. Clearly you're not capable of having it and we're not capable of moderating it. Maybe it's best we just break up.

[apex_pretador]

Spoiler:

I agree with you there. I've been hearing some people say that Piccolo surpassed Vegetto within those few months. We don't even know if that scene of him training with Gohan was filler or not. I would argue he's still weaker than FPSSJ Goku from the Cell Games since there's no indication he improved much since then.

Yes, that's pretty much the crux right there.
At this point it's hard to believe anything other than Toei wanting to give us some fanservice meant to portray Gohan as actually wanting to train again, so he could at least become strong enough to protect his family after RoF, unintentionally giving people some material to claim Piccolo is now thousands of times stronger.

Bingo. Look, I've made it clear I don't like Super but it's not because it's technically bad. It's because the fan service levels are off the charts. Everything reads like some Dragonball AF fan fiction.

God of Destruction comes of out nowhere for some BS reason and challenges Goku.
Turns out he's been the secret reason for all things in Z he's just been asleep this whole time.
To Fight him Goku gets UBER strong and becomes a SSJ God!
Freeza comes back from the dead and now have a SSJ Like form to rival their new God! powers.
Plus were gonna make it blue to match AF color schemes!
Now we're gonna give Vegeta the same power up off screen!
Plus Piccolo gets a crazy power boost in a fight he would never to able to last 2 secs in otherwise. Despite it appearing he got wreaked by a far weaker version of the same enemy last arc.

I love power level discussions but the random fan service makes it tough to have that conversation.

OK, tell me how is THIS a problem:

• When goku lost SSG form, beerus realized, but goku desperately trying, was able to hold ALL the power of SSG with his SS form, although with some difficulty and strain. That explains his aggressiveness increased as compared to SSG form.
• When the battle was nearly over, and goku saw beerus' ki ball, and went to punch it, he , in all the desperation and sheer willpower, was able to spike up his power back at the level of SSG without transforming, but the strain of doing that was so much that he just fainted.
• After beerus goes away, and goku gets relaxed, he is still MASSIVELY more powerful than anything imaginable, but nowhere near SSG even as SS. However, if he gets really desperate, he can bring out the full power of SSG as a super saiyan., but with some difficulty.
• Then goku goes to train with whis, and finds that vegeta has become unimaginably strong, probably more than himself, and hence goku starts training too. He is stronger in base than he was as a super saiyan 3 now.
• They continue to improve, and they become so strong that their super saiyan forms are now much stronger than before, and they can not only reach the level of SSG without trying desperately, but also surpass it, with SSB.
• They face revived freeza, who is stronger than ANY villain they have faced ever, and find it no trouble to keep up with him in base, due to Goku's superior skill.
  However, it looks like being buuhan level isn't the limit of freeza, because he is hiding the "fruits of training" which he shows only when goku goes SSB.
• Golden freeza turns out to be even stronger than SSB.
• Goku & Vegeta train hard at beerus planet for 8 months and then RoSaT, focusing on their SSB forms, to get as close to beerus as possible.
• Botamo is trash to base goku, who's around buuhan level.
• Frost assault form is barely stronger than base goku, and final form is significantly stronger. SS goku trashes frost while suppressed.
• Piccolo fights weakened frost, and said to have no chance, but he puts up a great effort, thanks to skill, tournament rules, and frost not taking this 100% seriously.
  However, piccolo seems like powered up - to say around fat buu level - because he wasn't strong enough to get a comment.
• Magatta seems weak, but he is durable as hell and has many interesting techniques.
• Cabba fight shows how much better the super saiyan transformation of vegeta is, in comparison to a regular random saiyan.
• SSB is a whole different level compared to SS

[Noah]

So, we reach the conclusion that all the fighters in U6 besides Hit are fodders compared to Boo Arc power levels?

Goku and Vegeta were supressed as shit while fighting most of them, right? Two Bases is a thing and Piccolo is not Boo-tenks level?