Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

At the least, they're far beyond their levels in the Boo saga in Base. That seems like a given.

They are because after Goku's fight with Beerus Vegeta had to do 6 months of intense training with Whis to catch back up with him.

Base Goku against Beerus > Base Goku in the Tournament > Base Goku before training with Whis > Base Goku at the start of the show.

[buutenks]

Saying it "doesn't matter" can be said about anything.

Beers acknowledged how much stronger they had gotten and challenged them before Whis sealed them in that God room to get even stronger.

Claiming they're Boo saga level in Base just seems so silly. It's like no one wants to see any progression in this series sometimes.

What is wrong if base goku would be buu saga level?What if he is above buuhan but below vegetto, that is still buu saga, but amazingly powerful.

You know why we are arguing about what level is base goku and vegeta at?
Because we want to get an idea of where do u6 fighters(apart from hit) and in turn piccolo stand.

PL have progressed, goku is ssj blue, stronger than in rof and bog, hit is at that level and so is vegeta. We know how strong goku,vegeta and hit are, we dont know how strong cabe,mageta, frost is in relation to buu saga characters.

One theory has them at very low levels, perhaps cell games level. The 2 base theory

The other they r at ssj3 tier and above.

And third, all god tier including piccolo.

[Chiki]

yes there is. Whis stating that base saiyans are far below the level of gods.

Even with SSG power, Goku is still well below Beerus and Champa, and nothing compared to Whis and Vados and probably others outside of U6 or U7.

Btw, Base Goku having SSG power in Base is a fact in Super too. He was able to take a ki blast from sleeping Beerus who was not holding back at all (Goku himself said it). SSJ3 level Base Goku would have been obliterated.

Toriyama himself saying Goku has SSG power in Base + Base Goku taking an uninhibited ki attack from Beerus in Super during training and surviving = Base Goku has access to SSG power.

So either A. U6 fighters are all god tiers is correct or B. Goku and Vegeta have two bases is correct.

Given that Buu is considered to be stronger than most U6 fighters with no training and Buu is not a god tier, B is the only possible answer.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

How strong do you think Base Goku was after the Whis training?

Buutenks

I understand what you're saying. Having Base Goku around Super Vegito wouldn't be an issue, though I think he's above that after training with Whis at least.

With the other U6 fighters, it's a lot harder. Assault Frost showed an advantage over Base Goku, but it changed quickly when he became a Super Saiyan. If we're to, at the very least, assume this is the same Base Goku that fought Freeza, then Frost ends up being stronger than Final Form Freeza and Goku from back then. Piccolo fought a depleted Frost, who would've otherwise easily pummeled Piccolo. That doesn't give us much to work with. We know Piccolo's Makankousappou was ridiculously powerful.

Cabba is stated to be even with Base Vegeta, but I know some people think this is crap. After training with Whis alone, Vegeta's Chi changed to the point where Goku even sensed the difference in it, and questioned if Vegeta was stronger. That implies a huge power-up in itself. I'm assuming Goku is stronger than he ever was in the Boo saga, otherwise the statement would be pointless because Rageta already temporarily showed power superior to Goku's. With Whis's training, he's able to go well beyond that. Knowing this, Cabba should at least be way above Goku and Vegeta from the Boo saga.

Magetta is an interesting one. Most likely around the same level as Super Saiyan Vegeta.

The way I see it, through training, both Goku and Vegeta are becoming more powerful overall. I don't think they're actively improving the Super Saiyan God power they possess while neglecting their normal Super Saiyan power. I see all of it increasing, if that makes sense. So Goku and Vegeta are just God-tier in general.

[TheMikado]

Saying it "doesn't matter" can be said about anything.

Beers acknowledged how much stronger they had gotten and challenged them before Whis sealed them in that God room to get even stronger.

Claiming they're Boo saga level in Base just seems so silly. It's like no one wants to see any progression in this series sometimes.

What is wrong if base goku would be buu saga level?What if he is above buuhan but below vegetto, that is still buu saga, but amazingly powerful.

You know why we are arguing about what level is base goku and vegeta at?
Because we want to get an idea of where do u6 fighters(apart from hit) and in turn piccolo stand.

PL have progressed, goku is ssj blue, stronger than in rof and bog, hit is at that level and so is vegeta. We know how strong goku,vegeta and hit are, we dont know how strong cabe,mageta, frost is in relation to buu saga characters.

One theory has them at very low levels, perhaps cell games level. The 2 base theory

The other they r at ssj3 tier and above.

And third, all god tier including piccolo.

Exactly Cell to Beerus power scale difference is HUGE!!!
For perspective if we used a 1 to 100 scale and Beerus is a 100. Cell would be a 0.1!
This is why we arguing the gap in how powerful a character can be has never been greater and the specifics of where characters are on that scale has never been more ambiguous.

[buutenks]

yes there is. Whis stating that base saiyans are far below the level of gods.

Even with SSG power, Goku is still well below Beerus and Champa, and nothing compared to Whis and Vados and probably others outside of U6 or U7.

Btw, Base Goku having SSG power in Base is a fact in Super too. He was able to take a ki blast from sleeping Beerus who was not holding back at all (Goku himself said it). SSJ3 level Base Goku would have been obliterated.

Toriyama himself saying Goku has SSG power in Base + Base Goku taking an uninhibited ki attack from Beerus in Super during training and surviving = Base Goku has access to SSG power.

So either A. U6 fighters are all god tiers is correct or B. Goku and Vegeta have two bases is correct.

I know goku is below beerus, but a tree compared to a castle is much much smaller than a mere 20-30-40% difference. Unless beerus is hundreds of times stronger than ssg, ofc that wouldnt make sense since beerus used 10% vs enraged vegeta and beerus didnt think much of him compared to ssg.

Or maybe whis just mean beerus is still more powerful, but not by much. Kinda like how vegeta was an ant compared to reccoome, even tho reccoome was at best 50% stronger.

I can see where that is going.

Given that Buu is considered to be stronger than most U6 fighters with no training and Buu is not a god tier, B is the only possible answer.

Why is he considered stronger?

IIRC goku did not know how powerful u6 team is, so goku chose buu because he was the only powerful being goku knew of, plus he has some special abilities and is ultra durable.

ofc i will never place u6 fighters apart from hit at god tier. They did to little to be placed there.

So, perhaps 2 base theory hehe.

[pacz360]

the two base theory is nothing but a theory also base goku and vegeta being ssj3 tier is stupid considering base goku punching out that ki ball which ssj3 goku would die against and beerus wouldn't bother to ask him and vegeta to spar with him if they were only ssj3 tier in base and the fact he never lost any god ki during that time i mean u6 could be low god tier fighters it's not like it can't happen this is db were talking about.

[Bullza]

Toriyama himself saying Goku has SSG power in Base + Base Goku taking an uninhibited ki attack from Beerus in Super during training and surviving = Base Goku has access to SSG power.

He never said that, he said he absorbed the power for himself but he never said that Base = SSJG in strenght.

I don't remember Base Goku taking any Ki attack from Beerus when he was asleep. He caught him with his tail and caught Vegeta with his foot when he turned over and caught them.

That's not the same as taking a full fledged kick in the face with the intention of causing damage. It's impressive enough to consider they are above SSJ3 level because a Beerus under 10% was causing considerable damage just with a flick but it certainly doesn't suggest they're God level at all.

[Chiki]

Toriyama himself saying Goku has SSG power in Base + Base Goku taking an uninhibited ki attack from Beerus in Super during training and surviving = Base Goku has access to SSG power.

He never said that, he said he absorbed the power for himself but he never said that Base = SSJG in strenght.

I don't remember Base Goku taking any Ki attack from Beerus when he was asleep. He caught him with his tail and caught Vegeta with his foot when he turned over and caught them.

That's not the same as taking a full fledged kick in the face with the intention of causing damage. It's impressive enough to consider they are above SSJ3 level because a Beerus under 10% was causing considerable damage just with a flick but it certainly doesn't suggest they're God level at all.

Yes, he said he can access it at any time, which means Base = around SSG in strength.

I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.

Made it his own = access it whenever he wants.

Rewatch the ep. Goku and Vegeta survive a full power ki attack from Beerus right after that tail incident.

I know goku is below beerus, but a tree compared to a castle is much much smaller than a mere 20-30-40% difference. Unless beerus is hundreds of times stronger than ssg, ofc that wouldnt make sense since beerus used 10% vs enraged vegeta and beerus didnt think much of him compared to ssg.

Or maybe whis just mean beerus is still more powerful, but not by much. Kinda like how vegeta was an ant compared to reccoome, even tho reccoome was at best 50% stronger.

Yep, I agree with the bolded. Base Goku w/ SSG power is like nothing to 100% Beerus, even if the difference is a 4 on a 0-15 scale. He'd beat him just like how Recoome owned Vegeta like nothing.

Why is he considered stronger?

IIRC goku did not know how powerful u6 team is, so goku chose buu because he was the only powerful being goku knew of, plus he has some special abilities and is ultra durable.

Because of Goku's statements. It's true that Goku didn't know U6's strength, but it's obvious that Toriyama had to get Buu out of the equation somehow or he would've soloed everyone except Hit.

Think about it. If the U6 fighters were all super strong, why did he need to write Buu out?

[Michelle91]

FnF Freeza is much stronger than Frost.

Goku said that he didn't need to go SSj against ROF Freeza while he did need to use SSj against Frost. Goku right now is three years stronger than he was in ROF. Final Form Frost is stronger than ROF Freeza and below Golden Freeza.

And Piccolo had already reached his limits since the Cell Games & couldn't even surpass the Super Saiyans all these years, yet he suddenly reaches the level of gods after a few months and no one even notices it?

I think Piccolo after Cell still did training since there is no reason for him to stop. By the Buu saga, he could have been at least at SSj2 level. Not sure how he could have reach above Majin Buu in four months, but he could have already been at SSj3 level before his death from Freeza.

[Chiki]

FnF Freeza is much stronger than Frost.

Goku said that he didn't need to go SSj against ROF Freeza while he did need to use SSj against Frost. Goku right now is three years stronger than he was in ROF. Final Form Frost is stronger than ROF Freeza and below Golden Freeza.

And Piccolo had already reached his limits since the Cell Games & couldn't even surpass the Super Saiyans all these years, yet he suddenly reaches the level of gods after a few months and no one even notices it?

I think Piccolo after Cell still did training since there is no reason for him to stop. By the Buu saga, he could have been at least at SSj2 level. Not sure how he could have reach above Majin Buu in four months, but he could have already been at SSj3 level before his death from Freeza.

The manga confirms that RoF Freeza >>>>>>>>> Frost because Frost never trained properly unlike Frieza.

[buutenks]

heh, well this is complicated. But would be boring otherwise hehe.

[TheMikado]

^^^ wait RoF Frieza way stronger than Frost???? I swear I thought it was the other way around???

[Draconic]

FnF Freeza is much stronger than Frost.

Goku said that he didn't need to go SSj against ROF Freeza while he did need to use SSj against Frost. Goku right now is three years stronger than he was in ROF. Final Form Frost is stronger than ROF Freeza and below Golden Freeza.

And Piccolo had already reached his limits since the Cell Games & couldn't even surpass the Super Saiyans all these years, yet he suddenly reaches the level of gods after a few months and no one even notices it?

I think Piccolo after Cell still did training since there is no reason for him to stop. By the Buu saga, he could have been at least at SSj2 level. Not sure how he could have reach above Majin Buu in four months, but he could have already been at SSj3 level before his death from Freeza.

The manga confirms that RoF Freeza >>>>>>>>> Frost because Frost never trained properly unlike Frieza.

Base Goku was dominating Freeza, yet turned Super Saiyan against Frost. Frost is somewhere between Final Form Freeza and Golden Freeza. What training has to do with it I don't know. Freeza was a huge prodigy and achieved that level in four months, while Frost might have trained his whole life to do it.

Edit: whatever level that might be, SSJ3 or God. I'm not saying, in this case at least, that Frost is god level, since he is nowhere near Golden Freeza or Super Saiyan Blue, just to clear that up.

[Khin]

Of course ROF Freeza is stronger than Frost.Freeza was SSjBlue tier.Give Frost his own "Ultimate Evolution" and he will end up being stronger than Freeza.

[TheMikado]

I must have misunderstood and didn't realize he was talking about Golden Frieza which we all agree with. No idea by how much though.

[ssbgoku]

Ok, I am sorry if I mess it up even more or complicate it more, But I brought up with another theory which may be true actually. There is no very powerfull base goku theory and there is no two base theory, instead there is another one:

ssb
ssg(red fire burning inside) looking as base goku
ssj
base goku

We know beerus addressed it and yet he wasn't yelling or getting angry at goku when he approached frost this way I assumes beerus must know goku used more power then as ssj. Another explanation would be tapping into ssj power in base making it stronger, or this form has limit simple.... as dumb as it sounds.

If my first approach is correct that would only leave us with vegeta getting ssg off screen and being able to burn this red fire out inside his body, or maybe he just lacks this form and that why Toei showed goku this way.

Still I believe it was just Toei givigin goku's hype and not bothering with previous matches comparisions but only focused on this one.

[Chiki]

I must have misunderstood and didn't realize he was talking about Golden Frieza which we all agree with. No idea by how much though.

I wasn't talking about Golden Frieza.

Final Form RoF Frieza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Final Form Frost.

Why?

The manga says Frost never trains. (Goku tells Frost that he can get stronger by training, meaning Frost never trains.)

Therefore, Frost should be around Namek Frieza level. Probably above that slightly. Why? Because Piccolo is Cell Junior level or above. Final Form Frost >> Piccolo. Frost is well known in U6 to participate in fights himself, unlike Frieza. That is why Frost is stronger than Namek Frieza. But Frost has never trained seriously for a day in his life, confirmed by the manga.

Frost and Frieza are likely to be equally talented and prodigious since they're almost the same person, except they look a bit different and Frost might be a little bit more of an actor.

Base Goku was dominating Freeza, yet turned Super Saiyan against Frost. Frost is somewhere between Final Form Freeza and Golden Freeza. What training has to do with it I don't know. Freeza was a huge prodigy and achieved that level in four months, while Frost might have trained his whole life to do it.

Edit: whatever level that might be, SSJ3 or God. I'm not saying, in this case at least, that Frost is god level, since he is nowhere near Golden Freeza or Super Saiyan Blue, just to clear that up.

This problem is solved by the two bases theory that you reject. Goku is not using SSG power against Frost, so problem solved.

The manga says you're wrong since Frost never trains btw.

There is no very powerfull base goku theory and there is no two base theory, instead there is another one:

ssb
ssg(red fire burning inside) looking as base goku
ssj
base goku

? This is the two base theory.

[ssbgoku]

? This is the two base theory.

Technicaly, no as you would have ssg looking as base(internal change->burning red fire) and just base. Although it is very simillair and arguably would be called like that.

[Chiki]

? This is the two base theory.

Technicaly, no as you would have ssg looking as base(internal change->burning red fire) and just base. Although it is very simillair and arguably would be called like that.

That's exactly what I call the two base theory. Base w/ SSG power = internal change.