DBZ Budokai HD Collection: Official On-Going Thread

[Rukura]

Partly because of petty nostalgia, but also because I legitimately like it.

Isn't that what the HD Collections are for, actually? Cashing in on fan's nostalgia and "remember that game you remember liking? We made it look better" kinda stuff?

[dbboxkaifan]

Isn't that what the HD Collections are for, actually? Cashing in on fans' nostalgia and "remember that game you remember liking? We made it look better" kinda stuff?

Since the original soundtrack is gone, I don't suppose they even bothered to keep around the English theme neither.

If they did, then maybe they would've used it on the trailer, or not, because even FUNimation on their DBZ series' sets uses some guitar song for the opening themes.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Partly because of petty nostalgia, but also because I legitimately like it.

Isn't that what the HD Collections are for, actually? Cashing in on fan's nostalgia and "remember that game you remember liking? We made it look better" kinda stuff?

And for people that never played them the first time; the original owners are usually the first to deny them, at least on the internet where they aren't accountable. The Budokai games are weird because it's a different kind of fanbase, and they have the particular bonus of Budokai being one of the oldest games ever to get the treatment, sans Devil May Cry 1. Let's not forget the Kai newcomers, many of whom presumably have HD consoles.

[Saiga]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I really want Rock the Dragon on there. Partly because of petty nostalgia, but also because I legitimately like it.

I'm in agreement with you, I'd like to see it on there as well.

[JeffJarrett]

Those who complain about the redundancy in moveset in the Budokai Tenkaichi series forget that all the characters in the Budokai games can perform Vegeta's Spirit Breaking Cannon, and have all the same three combo only with different name, such as the Zanku Fist..

The reason why so many characters have the Super Explosive Wave and Super Energy Wave Volley in the Budokai Tenkaichi series is also because several characters perform those techniques in the manga/anime series. Also, all the playable characters in the Budokai series have the same generic kick and punch movement, while the playable characters in the Budokai Tenkaichi series perform all their blow like they do in the manga/anime series (such as Raditz knee and kicks techniques).

[Hitiro]

Those who complain about the redundancy in moveset in the Budokai Tenkaichi series forget that all the characters in the Budokai games can perform Vegeta's Spirit Breaking Cannon, and have all the same three combo only with different name, such as the Zanku Fist..

The reason why so many characters have the Super Explosive Wave and Super Energy Wave Volley in the Budokai Tenkaichi series is also because several characters perform those techniques in the manga/anime series. Also, all the playable characters in the Budokai series have the same generic kick and punch movement, while the playable characters in the Budokai Tenkaichi series perform all their blow like they do in the manga/anime series (such as Raditz knee and kicks techniques).

Who is complaining about the redundancy in moveset of the Budokai Tenkaichi series? Also, while the Budokai Tenkaichi series is a great simulator for the dragonball universe it lacks the complexity of proper fighters to even be considered a fighting game. All I really see is you bringing up something nobody has even mentioned, it is fine if you want to talk about the HD collection but if you want to talk smack about it go discuss your problems with it on the Gamefaq forums. The Budokai series is a much more difficult game to master as combos require amazingly quick cancels, back dashes(for deliberate whiffing of moves) and good timing if you plan on riding the hit advantage of your last few hits to continue a combo.

All this combined with a ki-centred metagame, there is a lot of strategy focusing around how to fight based on your ki levels, makes the Budokai series of games a complex set of games which have great mechanics and nearly on par with other more well known fighting games. The ki-centred metagame also sets it apart from the other, more well known, fighters such as SF4, Tekken or Skull Girls. A person who only cares about movesets and the way how kicks and punches look in a game should just go play Ultimate Tenkaichi, the Budokai series isn't about fan service, it's about producing a good fighting game with great mechanics. In fact, mechanics should be what all developers strive to perfect as games have become to reliant on looking pretty.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

All this combined with a ki-centred metagame, where you must focus on how to fight based on your ki levels, makes the Budokai series of games a complex set of games which have great mechanics and nearly on par with other more well known fighting games.

No, it makes it a fighting game with inescapable combos that the game doesn't even imply exists (Not calling them illegitimate at all, only that they aren't self-evident and the game doesn't mention them like every other fighter does) and a ki equivalent of Ultimate Ninja Storm Generation's (Game Centralizing) substitution cancels. Well, in Budokai 3 you have game-centralizing substitution cancels; in Budokai 1 or 2 the cancel combo victim is completely flinch locked until the combo finishes. And have we forgotten that every four hit combo of any kind results in either knock down or knock back that you can almost never link a new combo into with bouncing someone off a wall, the same thing that neutered Brawl?

I enjoy the games a lot, was just playing Budokai 2 with a friend on Friday, but Shin Budokai and Infinite World are where the competitive praise belongs, not Budokai. They have everything you described and more, Budokai doesn't.

[Hitiro]

All this combined with a ki-centred metagame, where you must focus on how to fight based on your ki levels, makes the Budokai series of games a complex set of games which have great mechanics and nearly on par with other more well known fighting games.

No, it makes it a fighting game with inescapable combos that the game doesn't even imply exists (Not calling them illegitimate at all, only that they aren't self-evident and the game doesn't mention them like every other fighter does) and a ki equivalent of Ultimate Ninja Storm Generation's (Game Centralizing) substitution cancels. Well, in Budokai 3 you have game-centralizing substitution cancels; in Budokai 1 or 2 the cancel combo victim is completely flinch locked until the combo finishes. And have we forgotten that every four hit combo of any kind results in either knock down or knock back that you can almost never link a new combo into with bouncing someone off a wall, the same thing that neutered Brawl?

I enjoy the games a lot, was just playing Budokai 2 with a friend on Friday, but Shin Budokai and Infinite World are where the competitive praise belongs, not Budokai. They have everything you described and more, Budokai doesn't.

The Shin Budokai series and Infinite world do, do everything better, I agree with you. I don't know what makes you think the Budokai series is littered with inescapable combos because you can always get out of a combo if you have 3 bars of ki. Also lets not forget that damage gets severely lowered the longer the combos, flatting out at your moves only doing 1% damage after 32 hits. Also I'm not sure I follow what your saying about every four hit combo results in a knock down or knock back. There are plenty of four hit strings that don't result in knock downs or knock backs. Such as, from budokai 3, Goku's KKKK and PPKK, Kid Gohan's >PPPP and >KPKK, Gohan's >KPPP and KKKK(Which can be cancelled at the end to prevent such things.) Also what is wrong with some of the four hit combos doing knock down of knock back? Knock downs and knock backs are great tools to use when you are particularly low on ki as it gives you time to charge.

[Saimaroimaru]

Both the Budokai and Tenkaichi games are fightings games. Get over it. They just used different styles of play that appeal to different people. If you want to go debate that issue then go to gamefaqs since that is until today the only place where I have seen the "tenkaichi isn't a fighting game" debate. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it somehow loses its fighting game membership.Traditional fighting game style is not the only style in the genre.

[Hitiro]

Both the Budokai and Tenkaichi games are fightings games. Get over it. They just used different styles of play that appeal to different people. If you want to go debate that issue then go to gamefaqs since that is until today the only place where I have seen the "tenkaichi isn't a fighting game" debate. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it somehow loses its fighting game membership.Traditional fighting game style is not the only style in the genre.

I didn't say that I didn't like the Tenkaichi games, I like them for what they are and they aren't fighting games. As I've said previously the Tenkaichi games are more like DBZ simulators. They pull off the feel of the dragonball fights in the best way possible, however, to say that they are actual fighting games is not accurate. While they have elements of the fighting genre they lack the depth and level of game mechanics necessary to be considered true fighting games, I will say that the Raging Blast games are going along the right lines of making a true 3D fighting game but they are not there yet.

I feel that the Raging Blast series is the closest they've come to having a fighting game that simulates the DBZ battles but they are still, in my opinion, a simulation of the battles first and a fighting game second. If we take a look at other fighting games you'll see that they offer great mechanics and depth that allow them to be considered for highly-competitive play, I would say that the Tenkaichi and Raging Blast titles lack the elements necessary for such a thing. Though if I were to say which one was closest to this standard it would be the Raging Blast games. If you want to say they are purely fighting games I couldn't disagree with you more. If you want to categorise those games I would say, as I have already pointed out, that they are DBZ battle simulators with elements of the fighting genre. In comparison the Budokai series don't simulate the DBZ battles very well at all as they lack any feeling of having the world as your battlefield where you can fly about freely and destroy the environment as you go. What the Budokai series does have going for it is that it is a true fighting game with all the necessary game mechanics and depth necessary for it to be considered at a competitive level, especially with the release of the PSP Budokai games which introduce more mechanics, Infinite World is also, what I would say, a title to be considered at a competitive level. Far more than the older Budokai titles anyway.

As I've said, I enjoy the Tenkaichi games but for a different reason than I enjoy the Budokai games. If I want to play a game which simulates the epic DBZ battles I'll play the Tenkaichi games or Raging Blast games because that's what they are, great simulators. If I want a fleshed out fighting game that I can play, for the most part, competitively with my friends or other people I will choose the Budokai games as that's what they are, great fighters.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Well if I haven't made it clear already I'm commenting partially off observation of actual pro players, such GameFAQs regulars Budokai 3 tournaments (Regarding advanced combos and such), not experience, so that detracts whatever it will from anything I say. It may rip the rug out from under my feet, whatever, would rather be honest and proven wrong.

The Shin Budokai series and Infinite world do, do everything better, I agree with you. I don't know what makes you think the Budokai series is littered with inescapable combos because you can always get out of a combo if you have 3 bars of ki.

Because Budokai 1 and 2 require transformations to do so, which prioritizes Sayains because they have more of them, which is a sad but necessary strike against game balance. Budokai 3 has speed dodging, which helps but doesn't seem to necessary stop an aggressive player from simply continuing to melee or blocking momentarily and attacking again until he can get a hit, and while teleports are a good fix, that they too require that much ki seems to mean that he who loses the Ki management game will lose over a health bar to a cancel combo the second a hit lands. If that's how the game plays, fine, but last I checked having a lot of safe pokes was a sign of a good fighting game, and Budokai does have some of those, but they're secondary to the ki game.

Also lets not forget that damage gets severely lowered the longer the combos, flatting out at your moves only doing 1% damage after 32 hits.

Didn't know the series had damage scaling, that's nice.

Also I'm not sure I follow what your saying about every four hit combo results in a knock down or knock back. There are plenty of four hit strings that don't result in knock downs or knock backs. Such as, from budokai 3, Goku's KKKK and PPKK, Kid Gohan's >PPPP and >KPKK, Gohan's >KPPP and KKKK(Which can be cancelled at the end to prevent such things.)

I think I realized I'm being nitpicky in how I want the games to work.

My initial response to this was going to be that if I recall, those non-knockdown combos return both characters to a neutral position, and that canceling was the only way to extend them. But then why am I complaining about overlong combos in one point and then complaining about how they're not easier to set up in another, when I don't even understand how to do the existing long combos in the first place because they aren't self-evident? (Honestly don't, can't get the guarding or energy punches to work the way they're supposed to). I don't know what I want!

Also what is wrong with some of the four hit combos doing knock down of knock back? Knock downs and knock backs are great tools to use when you are particularly low on ki as it gives you time to charge.

There's nothing wrong with either of them, nothing, it's just that's what a lot of the easier dial combos are. But then after my last response I don't anything anyway.

[Saimaroimaru]

Both the Budokai and Tenkaichi games are fightings games. Get over it. They just used different styles of play that appeal to different people. If you want to go debate that issue then go to gamefaqs since that is until today the only place where I have seen the "tenkaichi isn't a fighting game" debate. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it somehow loses its fighting game membership.Traditional fighting game style is not the only style in the genre.

I didn't say that I didn't like the Tenkaichi games, I like them for what they are and they aren't fighting games. As I've said previously the Tenkaichi games are more like DBZ simulators. They pull off the feel of the dragonball fights in the best way possible, however, to say that they are actual fighting games is not accurate. While they have elements of the fighting genre they lack the depth and level of game mechanics necessary to be considered true fighting games, I will say that the Raging Blast games are going along the right lines of making a true 3D fighting game but they are not there yet.

I feel that the Raging Blast series is the closest they've come to having a fighting game that simulates the DBZ battles but they are still, in my opinion, a simulation of the battles first and a fighting game second. If we take a look at other fighting games you'll see that they offer great mechanics and depth that allow them to be considered for highly-competitive play, I would say that the Tenkaichi and Raging Blast titles lack the elements necessary for such a thing. Though if I were to say which one was closest to this standard it would be the Raging Blast games. If you want to say they are purely fighting games I couldn't disagree with you more. If you want to categorise those games I would say, as I have already pointed out, that they are DBZ battle simulators with elements of the fighting genre. In comparison the Budokai series don't simulate the DBZ battles very well at all as they lack any feeling of having the world as your battlefield where you can fly about freely and destroy the environment as you go. What the Budokai series does have going for it is that it is a true fighting game with all the necessary game mechanics and depth necessary for it to be considered at a competitive level, especially with the release of the PSP Budokai games which introduce more mechanics, Infinite World is also, what I would say, a title to be considered at a competitive level. Far more than the older Budokai titles anyway.

As I've said, I enjoy the Tenkaichi games but for a different reason than I enjoy the Budokai games. If I want to play a game which simulates the epic DBZ battles I'll play the Tenkaichi games or Raging Blast games because that's what they are, great simulators. If I want a fleshed out fighting game that I can play, for the most part, competitively with my friends or other people I will choose the Budokai games as that's what they are, great fighters.

Tenkaichi just takes a different approach to fighting games. There is a reason why we have something called "traditional" fighters because traditional fighters like SF or King of Fighters are not the only fighters. Your just saying that traditional is the only way or no way at all which is incorrect. Tenkaichi is a roam fighter but it doesn't make it less of a fighter than Budokai.

[Hitiro]

Because Budokai 1 and 2 require transformations to do so, which prioritizes Sayains because they have more of them, which is a sad but necessary strike against game balance. Budokai 3 has speed dodging, which helps but doesn't seem to necessary stop an aggressive player from simply continuing to melee or blocking momentarily and attacking again until he can get a hit, and while teleports are a good fix, that they too require that much ki seems to mean that he who loses the Ki management game will lose over a health bar to a cancel combo the second a hit lands. If that's how the game plays, fine, but last I checked having a lot of safe pokes was a sign of a good fighting game, and Budokai does have some of those, but they're secondary to the ki game.

I have to apologise, once again I am not sure what you are trying to get at. It's probably my fault to be honest but what to you mean by "Budokai 1 and 2 require transformations to do so"? Do you mean that combos can only really be pulled off by characters with transformations? Because as long as you cancel well and use decent juggles any character can produce a good combo string. Saiyan's, like Goku, indeed have a great deal of transformations in the game. But I should point out that transformations apply a damage modifier to the character so they can do more damage, but some characters who don't have transformations, for example, Kid Buu, receive a flat damage modifier at the beginning of the fight. This means that while characters like Goku can increase their damage by an extra 45% that only happens when, and if they can transform. Kid Buu would start the fight with the 45% damage modifier and keep it all the way through the fight while Goku must work for his damage modifier and if he is hit when his ki is red or enters fatigue he will have to start from the beginning. Also characters like Frieza, Broly and Cell have permanent transformations so that even if they get hit when their ki is red or if they enter fatigue they will keep the damage modifier. So really this balances it out even more against characters who have a great deal of transformations like Goku.

On to your ki management portion, yes, the game plays out exactly how you explained. Ki management is an important aspect of control in any fight. As for pokes, well, most characters have certain moves that just flat out have good reach. One such example is Goku's >PKK which is a great string that can be cancelled at the end and has good priority, it would be pretty hard for a person to get their attack to come out in between the startup frames of that string as they are only 5-10 frames long also because the last K is a charge attack you can absorb a hit if they try to get one off. Other characters, like Raditz I believe, have some strings which are great pokes because they have the ability to absorb the first hit, which charge attacks can also do. Other than these you have generic ki blasts which can be very useful as a poke, if you have enough ki to chance it. It forces your opponent to either deflect it or side step it, basically pressuring them. Also obviously they will take damage if they don't react. In budokai 3 they have the option of teleporting behind you to avoid it but that just means you will have the advantage as the first one to teleport will be the first one to run out of ki.

I think I realized I'm being nitpicky in how I want the games to work.

My initial response to this was going to be that if I recall, those non-knockdown combos return both characters to a neutral position, and that canceling was the only way to extend them. But then why am I complaining about overlong combos in one point and then complaining about how they're not easier to set up in another, when I don't even understand how to do the existing long combos in the first place because they aren't self-evident? (Honestly don't, can't get the guarding or energy punches to work the way they're supposed to). I don't know what I want!

Actually there is another way of extending and that is to stop short of doing the full combo string. Some strings have really good stun on them so finishing half way through is beneficial because you have the frame advantage to recover and finish your startup frames before your opponent does. Some charge attacks also provide you some really good frame advantage, if you have a decent amount of frame advantage some very good players can back dash and hit you with another combo string. The reason these players back dash is to intentionally whiff on their fist few inputs so they can save those moves for later, as attempting to do the same move twice will knock your opponent down. So if you can imagine Goku back dashing and then whiffing on >PKK then he can do something like >PP<PP after it.

There's nothing wrong with either of them, nothing, it's just that's what a lot of the easier dial combos are. But then after my last response I don't anything anyway.

I suppose a lot of the easier dial combos are but isn't that a bit silly wanting them to be harder and have more advantageous options on the easier dial combos? Why should you be provided with easy dial combos that give you a good advantage over dial combos that you have to work for to get a good advantage.

Tenkaichi just takes a different approach to fighting games. There is a reason why we have something called "traditional" fighters because traditional fighters like SF or King of Fighters are not the only fighters. Your just saying that traditional is the only way or no way at all which is incorrect. Tenkaichi is a roam fighter but it doesn't make it less of a fighter than Budokai.

Like I said in my post you can't consider Tenkaichi as just a fighting game, I know full well the difference between traditional and non-traditional fighters but the fact of the matter is the Tenkaichi series as well as the Raging Blast series still lack fundamental game mechanics and depth to make it a fighting game. This is why I refer to it as a DBZ battle simulator first and a fighter second. Let us look at another game franchise, The Legend of Zelda, it is an action adventure game but it also has items and stats that can be leveled up and upgraded. So that makes it an RPG game than? No. That merely means that the game has "elements" of an RPG and doesn't actually make it that genre. Much in the same way the Tenkaichi games have "elements" of a fighter game, the main aspect of the game however is to simulate the feeling of the amazing battles in the dragonball universe. I will agree with you that it is taking a "non-traditional" approach to a fighter game but as I said it still lacks the necessary components to actually be considered a fighting game in the first place.

It takes pieces of the fighting genre but not the whole thing, if it had all the elements that make a fighter but it was a 3D world, as it is, then I would agree with you that it is a "non-traditional" fighter. But that isn't the case, I feel more like the games are like Beat-em up's but that's not possible because that would mean one character pitted against numerous enemies per level. Then again the Tenkaichi games and Raging Blast games allow you to have multiple characters fight against each other so should we also call it a beat-em up? It certainly has "elements" of it. So like most other games out there the Tenkaichi games use a hybrid of existing genres but it will always come back to what's the main aspect of the game. The Legend of Zelda games have rpg "elements" but the games are about an "Action Adventure", Tenkaichi games "simulate" the DBZ battles so you feel you are living the battles. Of course it has elements of a fighting otherwise it wouldn't work but that isn't the main aspect of the game.

[Saimaroimaru]

Because Budokai 1 and 2 require transformations to do so, which prioritizes Sayains because they have more of them, which is a sad but necessary strike against game balance. Budokai 3 has speed dodging, which helps but doesn't seem to necessary stop an aggressive player from simply continuing to melee or blocking momentarily and attacking again until he can get a hit, and while teleports are a good fix, that they too require that much ki seems to mean that he who loses the Ki management game will lose over a health bar to a cancel combo the second a hit lands. If that's how the game plays, fine, but last I checked having a lot of safe pokes was a sign of a good fighting game, and Budokai does have some of those, but they're secondary to the ki game.

I have to apologise, once again I am not sure what you are trying to get at. It's probably my fault to be honest but what to you mean by "Budokai 1 and 2 require transformations to do so"? Do you mean that combos can only really be pulled off by characters with transformations? Because as long as you cancel well and use decent juggles any character can produce a good combo string. Saiyan's, like Goku, indeed have a great deal of transformations in the game. But I should point out that transformations apply a damage modifier to the character so they can do more damage, but some characters who don't have transformations, for example, Kid Buu, receive a flat damage modifier at the beginning of the fight. This means that while characters like Goku can increase their damage by an extra 45% that only happens when, and if they can transform. Kid Buu would start the fight with the 45% damage modifier and keep it all the way through the fight while Goku must work for his damage modifier and if he is hit when his ki is red or enters fatigue he will have to start from the beginning. Also characters like Freeza, Broly and Cell have permanent transformations so that even if they get hit when their ki is red or if they enter fatigue they will keep the damage modifier. So really this balances it out even more against characters who have a great deal of transformations like Goku.

On to your ki management portion, yes, the game plays out exactly how you explained. Ki management is an important aspect of control in any fight. As for pokes, well, most characters have certain moves that just flat out have good reach. One such example is Goku's >PKK which is a great string that can be cancelled at the end and has good priority, it would be pretty hard for a person to get their attack to come out in between the startup frames of that string as they are only 5-10 frames long also because the last K is a charge attack you can absorb a hit if they try to get one off. Other characters, like Raditz I believe, have some strings which are great pokes because they have the ability to absorb the first hit, which charge attacks can also do. Other than these you have generic ki blasts which can be very useful as a poke, if you have enough ki to chance it. It forces your opponent to either deflect it or side step it, basically pressuring them. Also obviously they will take damage if they don't react. In budokai 3 they have the option of teleporting behind you to avoid it but that just means you will have the advantage as the first one to teleport will be the first one to run out of ki.

I think I realized I'm being nitpicky in how I want the games to work.

My initial response to this was going to be that if I recall, those non-knockdown combos return both characters to a neutral position, and that canceling was the only way to extend them. But then why am I complaining about overlong combos in one point and then complaining about how they're not easier to set up in another, when I don't even understand how to do the existing long combos in the first place because they aren't self-evident? (Honestly don't, can't get the guarding or energy punches to work the way they're supposed to). I don't know what I want!

Actually there is another way of extending and that is to stop short of doing the full combo string. Some strings have really good stun on them so finishing half way through is beneficial because you have the frame advantage to recover and finish your startup frames before your opponent does. Some charge attacks also provide you some really good frame advantage, if you have a decent amount of frame advantage some very good players can back dash and hit you with another combo string. The reason these players back dash is to intentionally whiff on their fist few inputs so they can save those moves for later, as attempting to do the same move twice will knock your opponent down. So if you can imagine Goku back dashing and then whiffing on >PKK then he can do something like >PP<PP after it.

There's nothing wrong with either of them, nothing, it's just that's what a lot of the easier dial combos are. But then after my last response I don't anything anyway.

I suppose a lot of the easier dial combos are but isn't that a bit silly wanting them to be harder and have more advantageous options on the easier dial combos? Why should you be provided with easy dial combos that give you a good advantage over dial combos that you have to work for to get a good advantage.

Tenkaichi just takes a different approach to fighting games. There is a reason why we have something called "traditional" fighters because traditional fighters like SF or King of Fighters are not the only fighters. Your just saying that traditional is the only way or no way at all which is incorrect. Tenkaichi is a roam fighter but it doesn't make it less of a fighter than Budokai.

Like I said in my post you can't consider Tenkaichi as just a fighting game, I know full well the difference between traditional and non-traditional fighters but the fact of the matter is the Tenkaichi series as well as the Raging Blast series still lack fundamental game mechanics and depth to make it a fighting game. This is why I refer to it as a DBZ battle simulator first and a fighter second. Let us look at another game franchise, The Legend of Zelda, it is an action adventure game but it also has items and stats that can be leveled up and upgraded. So that makes it an RPG game than? No. That merely means that the game has "elements" of an RPG and doesn't actually make it that genre. Much in the same way the Tenkaichi games have "elements" of a fighter game, the main aspect of the game however is to simulate the feeling of the amazing battles in the dragonball universe. I will agree with you that it is taking a "non-traditional" approach to a fighter game but as I said it still lacks the necessary components to actually be considered a fighting game in the first place.

It takes pieces of the fighting genre but not the whole thing, if it had all the elements that make a fighter but it was a 3D world, as it is, then I would agree with you that it is a "non-traditional" fighter. But that isn't the case, I feel more like the games are like Beat-em up's but that's not possible because that would mean one character pitted against numerous enemies per level. Then again the Tenkaichi games and Raging Blast games allow you to have multiple characters fight against each other so should we also call it a beat-em up? It certainly has "elements" of it. So like most other games out there the Tenkaichi games use a hybrid of existing genres but it will always come back to what's the main aspect of the game. The Legend of Zelda games have rpg "elements" but the games are about an "Action Adventure", Tenkaichi games "simulate" the DBZ battles so you feel you are living the battles. Of course it has elements of a fighting otherwise it wouldn't work but that isn't the main aspect of the game.

As I have said, Tenkaichi is a roam fighter. A fighter non the less.

[Bluebolt]

Both the Budokai and Tenkaichi games are fightings games. Get over it. They just used different styles of play that appeal to different people. If you want to go debate that issue then go to gamefaqs since that is until today the only place where I have seen the "tenkaichi isn't a fighting game" debate. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it somehow loses its fighting game membership.Traditional fighting game style is not the only style in the genre.

I didn't say that I didn't like the Tenkaichi games, I like them for what they are and they aren't fighting games. As I've said previously the Tenkaichi games are more like DBZ simulators. They pull off the feel of the dragonball fights in the best way possible, however, to say that they are actual fighting games is not accurate. While they have elements of the fighting genre they lack the depth and level of game mechanics necessary to be considered true fighting games, I will say that the Raging Blast games are going along the right lines of making a true 3D fighting game but they are not there yet.

I feel that the Raging Blast series is the closest they've come to having a fighting game that simulates the DBZ battles but they are still, in my opinion, a simulation of the battles first and a fighting game second. If we take a look at other fighting games you'll see that they offer great mechanics and depth that allow them to be considered for highly-competitive play, I would say that the Tenkaichi and Raging Blast titles lack the elements necessary for such a thing. Though if I were to say which one was closest to this standard it would be the Raging Blast games. If you want to say they are purely fighting games I couldn't disagree with you more. If you want to categorise those games I would say, as I have already pointed out, that they are DBZ battle simulators with elements of the fighting genre. In comparison the Budokai series don't simulate the DBZ battles very well at all as they lack any feeling of having the world as your battlefield where you can fly about freely and destroy the environment as you go. What the Budokai series does have going for it is that it is a true fighting game with all the necessary game mechanics and depth necessary for it to be considered at a competitive level, especially with the release of the PSP Budokai games which introduce more mechanics, Infinite World is also, what I would say, a title to be considered at a competitive level. Far more than the older Budokai titles anyway.

As I've said, I enjoy the Tenkaichi games but for a different reason than I enjoy the Budokai games. If I want to play a game which simulates the epic DBZ battles I'll play the Tenkaichi games or Raging Blast games because that's what they are, great simulators. If I want a fleshed out fighting game that I can play, for the most part, competitively with my friends or other people I will choose the Budokai games as that's what they are, great fighters.

That's an extremely well made answer. Couldn't agree with you more. I would like to ask one question in general, is there even enough keen interest in having a ''real'' fighter. Budokai is great but even so it can be better. I just want to know as a percentage of fans, how many actually want a traditional fighter over a dbz simulator?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I didn't say that I didn't like the Tenkaichi games, I like them for what they are and they aren't fighting games.

But last time I played Sparking! METEOR, I remember mine & my brother's chosen characters fighting each other on multi-player...

[Rukura]

I just want to know as a percentage of fans, how many actually want a traditional fighter over a dbz simulator?

Given the hype that the "Sparking! OMEGA" rumor got within 24 hours, that seems like as much of an answer as we're going to get. Traditional fighting game fans that are also Dragon Ball fans (and even some that aren't so much into fighting games) would prefer a Super Dragon Ball Z 2...but I imagine it's a much smaller group.

[Saimaroimaru]

I didn't say that I didn't like the Tenkaichi games, I like them for what they are and they aren't fighting games.

But last time I played Sparking! METEOR, I remember mine & my brother's chosen characters fighting each other on multi-player...

But it wasn't on a traditional fighter so it doesn't count.

On a serious note, I noticed this traditional fighter elitism started around the BT3- RB1 era. Though since game sites still list the Tenkaichi games as fighters I'm fine with it.

Though if we are gonna get into the subject of simulator, technically every video game is a simulator.

[goku the krump dancer]

Technically isnt any game thats based on something that happens in real life a simulator? Even though its based off a cartoon the core base of the Tenkaichi games is fighting. Thats like saying Call of Duty isn't a shooting game its a war simulator, or Golden Eye isnt a shooting game but a FBI/Secret agent simulator or that Tekken isn't a fighting game its an exaggerated Martial Arts simulator.

Yes I agree that the Spike games are DBZ simulators but so are the Dimps games and the adventure games. At the same time they are also games of their respective genres, so yes Tenkaichi (1,2,3,TT) and Raging Blast (1,2) are fighting games just like the Budokai games.

[Hitiro]

As I have said, Tenkaichi is a roam fighter. A fighter non the less.

And as I keep saying, Tenkaichi is a DBZ Battle simulator with fighting elements.

That's an extremely well made answer. Couldn't agree with you more. I would like to ask one question in general, is there even enough keen interest in having a ''real'' fighter. Budokai is great but even so it can be better. I just want to know as a percentage of fans, how many actually want a traditional fighter over a dbz simulator?

This is something I would like to know myself, I know there are quite a few people who hold the Budokai games in good regard and they also think it could do much better and even be pushed onto the competitive scene. Unfortunately we have to compete with people who think the Tenkaichi games are the best, and they are in their own way, but the Budokai games are and always will be a fighting series that could make the DBZ have a firm foothold in the fighting community. No offence to some of the Tenkaichi fans, because its only a certain percentage of them, but there are idiots who think the Tenkaichi series is better than all they others because of the amount of characters, techniques and maps it has. But those people really need to wake up and see that it shouldn't be about fan service, it should be about the game mechanics. After a games has fleshed out some decent game mechanics, then it can focus on fan service. Games like SF4 do well because the game mechanics are pretty good, I myself am not a great fan of SF4 but I will admit that most of its mechanics are well constructed and because of this they can afford to throw out DLC of different character costumes and skins because people like the ones I was just on about do care about that sort of thing. Developing the game mechanics will also help with the games promotion outside of the usual audience, if we look at a game like Skull Girls you would think that a game like that is targeted at such a niche audience it wouldn't have much of a foothold. But the game mechanics in that game are also quite well developed and fleshed out which is why the game has seen support from outside its intended audience. I feel the the Tenkaichi series could eventually become a fighting series, and a good one, through a few more iterations but, as I said, the Budokai series seems to be the most likely option right now and people should really back the HD collection for hopes that we could see a new Budokai title in the near future with some decent online play.

Technically isnt any game thats based on something that happens in real life a simulator? Even though its based off a cartoon the core base of the Tenkaichi games is fighting. Thats like saying Call of Duty isn't a shooting game its a war simulator, or Golden Eye isnt a shooting game but a FBI/Secret agent simulator or that Tekken isn't a fighting game its an exaggerated Martial Arts simulator.

Yes I agree that the Spike games are DBZ simulators but so are the Dimps games and the adventure games. At the same time they are also games of their respective genres, so yes Tenkaichi (1,2,3,TT) and Raging Blast (1,2) are fighting games just like the Budokai games.

A simulator must be accurate, you can't really call Tekken a "Martial Arts" simulator with the way the characters fight in it. Yoshimitsu teleports everywhere, there is a boxing tiger headed fighter who can launch people metres up in the air and you have characters like Kazuya which produce electric. The exact same thing can be said for the Call of Duty games to be honest, I'm sure you've played the games all the way through? Can you honestly tell me you can see people half dead on the floor launching blades through the air into someone else's head that was pulled from their own chest? Its borderline ridiculous to think that anything like that would happen in real life. Also the game mechanics in the games would be more realistic in terms with what is being simulated. If we take Golden eye and 007 got shot at point blank range with a shotgun he wouldn't survive or at least be severely wounded. You also don't see characters in COD limping because they've been shot in the leg while your playing through the campaign.