How strong was Dabura?

[Fionordequester]

Gotenks being stronger than Goku, apparently.

...Isn't that because Gotenks most likely is stronger?

[Saiga]

I... I have nothing left to say anymore. This is abso-freakin'-lutely ridiculous and borderline shameful. The truth is right in front of everyone's eyes, but if people want to keep pointing to the color blue and claiming that it's actually red, fine. Go nuts. I'm going to take another whack at staying out of this unless I'm needed as a mod.

I am incredibly surprised that you of all people are acting this way. It is perfectly valid to see Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2. It is NOT anything close to calling blue red.

@Fiord I was talking about pre-RoSaT Gotenks in relation to SS3 Goku, sorry for being vague.

[Fionordequester]

@Fiord I was talking about pre-RoSaT Gotenks in relation to SS3 Goku, sorry for being vague.

Wait a tic, I remember something about a Super Saiyan having sparks at just level 1. Was that Gotenks you were referring to?

[RandomGuy96]

Vegetto also has them.

Also, don't expect civilized discourse or an open mind from Kaboom here, he flat out said that he didn't respect other views on the matter very early on and outright said that he considered people with a different opinion to be stupid ("You are insulting my intelligence. I thought members of this forum would be smarter than this").

[Fionordequester]

Vegetto also has them.

Only for one brief panel...though that's still a decent argument (one could just say artistic slip-up though).

Also, don't expect civilized discourse or an open mind from Kaboom here, he flat out said that he didn't respect other views on the matter and that he considered people with a different opinion to be stupid ("You are insulting my intelligence. I thought members of this forum would be smarter than this").

Stop it, stop it now please. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Nazi Cola]

Only Vegetto has had spark as a Super Saiyan, and that was for one panel during his initial transformation.

[Fionordequester]

Only Vegetto has had spark as a Super Saiyan, and that was for one panel during his initial transformation.

But let's think about that for a minute. Does that mean that Vegetto went SSJ2, and then decided to go down to SSJ1? Is that how you want to explain it?

[Draken]

I don't understand, it's hard to follow this thread.

From what I'm seeing, what's wrong with Gohan being a SSJ? I don't see any arguments pointing towards Gohan being a SSJ2, only people shooting down why people suggest Gohan is only a SSJ against Dabura. Why is this? Guidebook? Nerf Gohan? Wank Dabura? Coherency? This is really confusing x.x. It's just people showing pretty solid evidence from my viewpoint as to why Gohan is actually only a SSJ (Gohan is surprised the meter filled up so fast, called Goku and Vegeta's fight a level beyond SSJ, Dabura and Gohan not filling up the meter, the art inconsistencies).

Someone care to elaborate besides spewing pointless no no no no no you're wrong and actually give a solid viewpoint on why Gohan would be a SSJ2?

Because honestly, I don't care for either side (and if you've read my posts you'll even see me playing on the Gohan was a SSJ2 side) but I don't see anything going for Gohan being a SSJ2. All I see is either A: Personal viewpoint B: Single guidebook statement or C: Baseless fan assumptions on artwork. No actual hard evidence.
"Gohan was a SSJ2 because I think it works better in the story and I want it to be that way and my argument is because AT decided to leave Gohan out of the sparks for SSJ2 trend." The argument I see in a nutshell. Which is fine if you want it to be your personal opinion, but let's try to keep it that way huh? You aren't going to convince anyone without proper evidence.

The SSJ side has countless examples from the manga, a guidebook, and artwork and still fits into the story.

[Fionordequester]

From what I'm seeing, what's wrong with Gohan being a SSJ? I don't see any arguments pointing towards Gohan being a SSJ2, only people shooting down why people suggest Gohan is only a SSJ against Dabura. Why is this? Guidebook? Nerf Gohan? Wank Dabura? Coherency? This is really confusing x.x. It's just people showing pretty solid evidence from my viewpoint as to why Gohan is actually only a SSJ (Gohan is surprised the meter filled up so fast, called Goku and Vegeta's fight a level beyond SSJ, Dabura and Gohan not filling up the meter, the art inconsistencies).

Someone care to elaborate besides spewing pointless no no no no no you're wrong and actually give a solid viewpoint on why Gohan would be a SSJ2?[/quote]

My problem with SSJ1 Gohan is that it assumes that...

Goku's line about Dabura's strength should either not be taken literally, or that Goku was referring to the weakest possible Perfect Cell he could have thought of despite never once thinking of him in those terms during the Cell Games arc, that Gohan was somehow angrier at the tournament than he was in facing the likes of Dabura and Majin Buu, that Akira Toriyama would actually be that subtle in his story telling when he's NEVER been that way before, that the Daizenshuu 7 guide about Gohan being SSJ2 was simply a typo, that Vegeta and Goku apparently didn't make anything of Gohan not using SSJ2.

And then there's the fact that Vegeta not thinking that Dabura was anything less than "tough but not unbeatable" apparently doesn't put Dabura above SSJ1 Gohan tier, that Gohan could somehow survive a blast from Fat Buu at only SSJ1. And then there's Gohan being surprised about Fat Buu being able to own Dabura despite Dabura apparently being only SSJ1 tier. This by the way, is after Gohan already stated that he would need SSJ2 at full power just to do a darn thing to Fat Buu.

And then of course, even assuming that Mr. Toriyama was changing his Super Saiyan designs around that time (as some claim), how do we know that him drawing SSJ2 Gohan without sparks wasnt' simply going back and forth on how he wanted Gohan to look? He was, after all, much weaker and much more out of shape than Goku and Vegeta, so perhaps Mr. Toriyama wanted to reflect that?

Does that sound at least somewhat reasonable? I personally find all that to be some tough pills to swallow. As for that guidebook you mentioned, that came at an earlier date than the Daizenshuu 7, so that could be retconning there.

[Draken]

Guidebooks are to be taken as supplementary articles and are not to be taken as fact when a much more credible source, ie; the manga, is involved.

Vegeta and Goku were not shown to have SSJ2 at this point. Maybe Vegeta didn't even have SSJ2 at that point, we don't know. If that's the case, then what Vegeta says is definitely true, he would be a tough opponent but nothing Vegeta couldn't handle at FPSSJ.

And the art argument is, no offense, quite baseless and IMO cannot be used in an argument. It's a random fan theory with no evidence to back it up. While there IS evidence pointing to sparks being a key part of its (SSJ2) art-style. Otherwise I could be like "Goku's actually a SSJ3 against Vegeta but highly suppressed so it didn't drain away his time, and then later AT decided to change his art-style." See? Baseless for a fan's personal viewpoint. Which I've already said is fine, but you shouldn't be trying to push it onto people who are using manga facts.

[Fionordequester]

Vegeta and Goku were not shown to have SSJ2 at this point. Maybe Vegeta didn't even have SSJ2 at that point, we don't know. If that's the case, then what Vegeta says is definitely true, he would be a tough opponent but nothing Vegeta couldn't handle at FPSSJ.

There's also him saying that he's stronger than Gohan, despite witnessing him go SSJ2. And then there's the fact that there was never a point where he was all "STOP MESSING AROUND AND GO SSJ2, YOU STUPID CHILD!!" or anything like that.

[Draken]

Vegeta and Goku were not shown to have SSJ2 at this point. Maybe Vegeta didn't even have SSJ2 at that point, we don't know. If that's the case, then what Vegeta says is definitely true, he would be a tough opponent but nothing Vegeta couldn't handle at FPSSJ.

There's also him saying that he's stronger than Gohan, despite witnessing him go SSJ2. And then there's the fact that there was never a point where he was all "STOP MESSING AROUND AND GO SSJ2, YOU STUPID CHILD!!" or anything like that.

People have already addressed that multiple times better than I can, so I won't go back and re-argue it. Have you been keeping up? O_O

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SSJ also never had it's design changed. FPSSJ is a seperate form.

Since when does the SS hairstyle change when a SSFP is in his resting state?

Super Saiyan Gohan had a design change 3 times.

[hleV]

Only Vegetto has had spark as a Super Saiyan, and that was for one panel during his initial transformation.

But let's think about that for a minute. Does that mean that Vegetto went SSJ2, and then decided to go down to SSJ1? Is that how you want to explain it?

It was just his transformation effect. Why is it different? Because Vegetto, that's why. Lightning sparks are not limited to SS2/3, they can happen because of other reasons. Lack of sparks for SS2, however, is different matter.

Anyway, all this quirk with Gohan being only a SS1 against Dabra can be easily explained with this: Goku compared Dabra to Cell in general, not his strongest form. Why go SS2 when you're actually having a fun, quite even battle for the first time in many years?

[Nazi Cola]

Yeah, I view Goku's statement as a general one, but a specific one.

[TheMightyOzaru]

SSJ also never had it's design changed. FPSSJ is a seperate form.

Since when does the SS hairstyle change when a SSFP is in his resting state?

Super Saiyan Gohan had a design change 3 times.

He's relaxed so his hair is more relaxed. his rested/relaxed/suppressed state, whatever want to call it, has 2 strands where as FPSSJ has 1 because it's, well, full power.

C: Baseless fan assumptions on artwork. No actual hard evidence.

I've provided many examples within the art that shows the differences between a SSJ and a SSJ2. It's willful ignorance to claim that sparks and a sharper aura are not staples of this form. These aren't assumptions, these are clear as day examples within the artwork. Here let me show you:

Spoiler:

It's pretty damn clear the differences between how a SSJ and a SSJ2 are drawn.

[Mjb1985]

Dabura's power is considered laughable by Goku and Vegeta before Ssj2 is mentioned. All the Ssj2 moments are more like little surprises.

Super Saiyan was still the standard here. Ssj2 was still a bit special.

Vegeta and Goku as Super Saiyans should be able to stomp Dabura. Only Gohan's weak Ssj power considers Dabura a threat.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I would also like to point out that Goku is surprised Vegeta can turn into a SSJ2. It's pretty clear no one thought Vegeta could go SSJ2 when he was angry at Gohan for being sloppy, naturally Vegeta could take Dabura as a SSJ since no one said, oh you can go SSJ2 Vegeta?

[Fionordequester]

Dabura's power is considered laughable by Goku and Vegeta before Ssj2 is mentioned.

Goku: "Boy, he's even tougher than I thought!"

Super Saiyan was still the standard here. Ssj2 was still a bit special.

If that's the argument for why Vegeta didn't tell Gohan to hurry up and finish Dabura off, I don't buy it since, while we're not supposed to know from a narrative standpoint that Goku and Vegeta have SSJ2, they both at least know that Gohan has a state beyond FPSSJ, so that still doesn't explain why neither of them told Gohan to hurry up. Though now that I think of it, if you want to argue that Vegeta just wanted to hurry up and get turned into a Majin, that's certainly an acceptable explanation.

Anyways, since you're still not answering all of the list of rebuttals I copied and pasted, and since I've already spent a ton of time posting here, I've decided to just stop coming to this thread. For anyone who still wants to debate me, you can send me a PM.

[Kamiccolo9]

Back to the original purpose of this thread (Dabura's strength prior to possession), I've decided on two different levels.
First, if Dabura is a Makaioshin, that would make him weaker than East Kaioshin, so I've decided to put him on the same level as Vegeta from the Cell Games.
Second, if he isn's a Makaioshin, I'm gonna say that he's was equal to what he is in the series. Someone else pointed out that Dabura, Pui Pui, and Yakon didn't have the characteristics that Vegeta, Yamu, and Spopovitch do, so it's possible that his latent power wasn't drawn out.

Do these sound good to everyone?