SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[Draken]

I would agree with your list except I refuse to believe the kids are so close to their dad I may be a restricted Goku fanboy but a fanboy I still am. Stronger than Gohan/Gotenks? Fuck no not in a billion years. Barely stronger than his kid? Fuck no I refuse. Moderation fanboying

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I believe I should say that my favorite character is Son Goku, for those who didn't know. It's not my opinion that put Gotenks & Gohan so much stronger than Goku, it's purely official information.

[Draken]

I believe I should say that my favorite character is Son Goku, for those who didn't know. It's not my opinion that put Gotenks & Gohan so much stronger than Goku, it's purely official information.

Daizenshuu's are nice supplementary info but they're not the end all be all. After all Goku wasn't at all impressed by Goten/Trunks when they powered up to max in front of him.

[Axiom]

Why? Goten & Trunks are stated to be as strong as Gohan in the Daizenshuu, and Gohan is implied to not be much weaker than Goku & Vegeta. The SEG state that Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier, SS2 is a x2 multiplier, and SS3 is a x4 multiplier. Furthermore, Toriyama said that he wanted to come up with something stronger than Super Saiyan, and he decided that Fusion would be it. There are also various guidebooks (including the Daizenshuu) that state that Fusion makes the users dozens of times stronger. Goten & Trunks are still very young, with a lot of unused dormant power inside them (which is stated to be greater than Goku's & Vegeta's dormant powers), which should allow them to get the huge increases in power that Goku & co. were getting in the past, and RoSaT isn't a normal place to train, it's actually the best place to train, and they trained as hard as they could for a week, which obviously gave them huge gains, since Piccolo sensed a great power-up in Gotenks. Furthermore, the Daizenshuu state that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT, which I interpret as base Gotenks surpassing SS2 Vegeta, which fits with Piccolo's comment. And since I already proved that Gohan > Gotenks > Goku exclusively through the manga, without ignoring everything (I forgot some small things, but dbzfan7 included these for me).

I'm not crazy, I concluded in these because that's what all the official information (manga + manga guides) tell me, and unlike you, I don't ignore anything that would prove me wrong.

You can't interpret that way because it isn't true. Period.
The boys didn't increase their power over 50x what it was before in 2 weeks of training - it's a feat that has NEVER happened in all of DBZ.
The boys aren't even close to their parents - it was never been implied. Goku wasn't impressed with full power Trunks.
The Daizenshuu states that Gotenks LEVELED UP so much he surpassed Vegeta in strength, obviously talking about SSJ3, not base Gotenks. Don't tell me I have a problem when you are cherry picking facts and down right making shit up.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why? Goten & Trunks are stated to be as strong as Gohan in the Daizenshuu, and Gohan is implied to not be much weaker than Goku & Vegeta. The SEG state that Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier, SS2 is a x2 multiplier, and SS3 is a x4 multiplier. Furthermore, Toriyama said that he wanted to come up with something stronger than Super Saiyan, and he decided that Fusion would be it. There are also various guidebooks (including the Daizenshuu) that state that Fusion makes the users dozens of times stronger. Goten & Trunks are still very young, with a lot of unused dormant power inside them (which is stated to be greater than Goku's & Vegeta's dormant powers), which should allow them to get the huge increases in power that Goku & co. were getting in the past, and RoSaT isn't a normal place to train, it's actually the best place to train, and they trained as hard as they could for a week, which obviously gave them huge gains, since Piccolo sensed a great power-up in Gotenks. Furthermore, the Daizenshuu state that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT, which I interpret as base Gotenks surpassing SS2 Vegeta, which fits with Piccolo's comment. And since I already proved that Gohan > Gotenks > Goku exclusively through the manga, without ignoring everything (I forgot some small things, but dbzfan7 included these for me).

I'm not crazy, I concluded in these because that's what all the official information (manga + manga guides) tell me, and unlike you, I don't ignore anything that would prove me wrong.

You can't interpret that way because it isn't true. Period.
The boys didn't increase their power over 50x what it was before in 2 weeks of training - it's a feat that has NEVER happened in all of DBZ.
The boys aren't even close to their parents - it was never been implied. Goku wasn't impressed with full power Trunks.
The Daizenshuu states that Gotenks LEVELED UP so much he surpassed Vegeta in strength, obviously talking about SSJ3, not base Gotenks. Don't tell me I have a problem when you are cherry picking facts and down right making shit up.

The Daizenshuu also says that Goten is equal to Gohan.

[Axiom]

I believe I should say that my favorite character is Son Goku, for those who didn't know. It's not my opinion that put Gotenks & Gohan so much stronger than Goku, it's purely official information.

Daizenshuu's are nice supplementary info but they're not the end all be all. After all Goku wasn't at all impressed by Goten/Trunks when they powered up to max in front of him.

If we agree - you KNOW you're wrong.

And Gohan is implied to be weaker than Pre Manjin Vegeta.

[Draken]

Why? Goten & Trunks are stated to be as strong as Gohan in the Daizenshuu, and Gohan is implied to not be much weaker than Goku & Vegeta. The SEG state that Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier, SS2 is a x2 multiplier, and SS3 is a x4 multiplier. Furthermore, Toriyama said that he wanted to come up with something stronger than Super Saiyan, and he decided that Fusion would be it. There are also various guidebooks (including the Daizenshuu) that state that Fusion makes the users dozens of times stronger. Goten & Trunks are still very young, with a lot of unused dormant power inside them (which is stated to be greater than Goku's & Vegeta's dormant powers), which should allow them to get the huge increases in power that Goku & co. were getting in the past, and RoSaT isn't a normal place to train, it's actually the best place to train, and they trained as hard as they could for a week, which obviously gave them huge gains, since Piccolo sensed a great power-up in Gotenks. Furthermore, the Daizenshuu state that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT, which I interpret as base Gotenks surpassing SS2 Vegeta, which fits with Piccolo's comment. And since I already proved that Gohan > Gotenks > Goku exclusively through the manga, without ignoring everything (I forgot some small things, but dbzfan7 included these for me).

I'm not crazy, I concluded in these because that's what all the official information (manga + manga guides) tell me, and unlike you, I don't ignore anything that would prove me wrong.

You can't interpret that way because it isn't true. Period.
The boys didn't increase their power over 50x what it was before in 2 weeks of training - it's a feat that has NEVER happened in all of DBZ.
The boys aren't even close to their parents - it was never been implied. Goku wasn't impressed with full power Trunks.
The Daizenshuu states that Gotenks LEVELED UP so much he surpassed Vegeta in strength, obviously talking about SSJ3. Don't tell me I have a problem when you are cherry picking facts and down right making shit up.

Calm the fuck down. He can interpret it that way. If it's not true prove it. Bring me AT's note/stamp of approval. Otherwise he can interpret it anyway he wants.

Obviously? Then why did the Daizenshuu also put a picture of BASE Gotenks in that same passage? Weird huh? Obvious only to you.
He can tell you you have a problem because you do have a problem.

[Axiom]

Why? Goten & Trunks are stated to be as strong as Gohan in the Daizenshuu, and Gohan is implied to not be much weaker than Goku & Vegeta. The SEG state that Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier, SS2 is a x2 multiplier, and SS3 is a x4 multiplier. Furthermore, Toriyama said that he wanted to come up with something stronger than Super Saiyan, and he decided that Fusion would be it. There are also various guidebooks (including the Daizenshuu) that state that Fusion makes the users dozens of times stronger. Goten & Trunks are still very young, with a lot of unused dormant power inside them (which is stated to be greater than Goku's & Vegeta's dormant powers), which should allow them to get the huge increases in power that Goku & co. were getting in the past, and RoSaT isn't a normal place to train, it's actually the best place to train, and they trained as hard as they could for a week, which obviously gave them huge gains, since Piccolo sensed a great power-up in Gotenks. Furthermore, the Daizenshuu state that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT, which I interpret as base Gotenks surpassing SS2 Vegeta, which fits with Piccolo's comment. And since I already proved that Gohan > Gotenks > Goku exclusively through the manga, without ignoring everything (I forgot some small things, but dbzfan7 included these for me).

I'm not crazy, I concluded in these because that's what all the official information (manga + manga guides) tell me, and unlike you, I don't ignore anything that would prove me wrong.

You can't interpret that way because it isn't true. Period.
The boys didn't increase their power over 50x what it was before in 2 weeks of training - it's a feat that has NEVER happened in all of DBZ.
The boys aren't even close to their parents - it was never been implied. Goku wasn't impressed with full power Trunks.
The Daizenshuu states that Gotenks LEVELED UP so much he surpassed Vegeta in strength, obviously talking about SSJ3. Don't tell me I have a problem when you are cherry picking facts and down right making shit up.

Calm the fuck down.

Obviously? Then why did the Daizenshuu also put a picture of BASE Gotenks in that same passage? Weird huh? Obvious only to you.
He can tell you you have a problem because you do have a problem.

I have a problem with you telling me what the fuck to do. Obviously YOU have a problem, so shut the fuck up and moderate youself and not me.

[Draken]

Man once again he dodges every point thrown at him. Surprising huh .

Calm down.

Take a chill pill.

Relax.

CTFO.

Re-evaluate your heavily invested in DBZ Goku life.

You just agreed with me that Daizenshuu's aren't end all be all sources of information then straight up listed word for word a Daizenshuu line and narrowly interpreted it to follow your own viewpoint. Hypocritical much?

[dbzfan7]

I predict this thread shall be locked very soon.

[Kamiccolo9]

I predict this thread shall be locked very soon.

Yep.
Pity. All of the Buu threads keep getting locked.

[RandomGuy96]

Shame, I like this conversation.

[dbzfan7]

I predict this thread shall be locked very soon.

Yep.
Pity. All of the Buu threads keep getting locked.

They never do last.

[Kamiccolo9]

I predict this thread shall be locked very soon.

Yep.
Pity. All of the Buu threads keep getting locked.

They never do last.

We get some really good off topic stuff from them though. Remember that teleporting topic a while back? That was fun.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Daizenshuu's are nice supplementary info but they're not the end all be all. After all Goku wasn't at all impressed by Goten/Trunks when they powered up to max in front of him.

I try to follow them as long as they don't contradict the manga. Goku not being impressed could mean that he expected them to be that strong.

You can't interpret that way because it isn't true. Period.

You will have to prove me wrong to say that it's not true.

The boys didn't increase their power over 50x what it was before in 2 weeks of training - it's a feat that has NEVER happened in all of DBZ.

I never said they became 50 times stronger. The almost became 2 times stronger.

The boys aren't even close to their parents - it was never been implied. Goku wasn't impressed with full power Trunks.

The Daizenshuu imply that Gohan's power over the 7 years has fallen, but not by much. Vegeta (pre-Majin) doesn't think that he has surpassed SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, and both SS2 Goku & SS2 Majin Vegeta are stated in the manga to be "perhaps" stronger than Cell Games SS2 Gohan. The Daizenshuu state that Goten is as strong as Gohan, and we see Gohan barely blocking all of Goten's hits during their training in the manga. The difference between the base Saiyans in Boo arc is not huge.

EDIT: I take that back. I forgot that Gohan got a rage boost in the Cell Games as a Super Saiyan 2, so Goku and Vegeta should be several times stronger than Gohan, Goten, and Trunks.

The Daizenshuu states that Gotenks LEVELED UP so much he surpassed Vegeta in strength, obviously talking about SSJ3, not base Gotenks. Don't tell me I have a problem when you are cherry picking facts and down right making shit up.

The manga, the Daizenshuu, and even Toriyama himself imply that SS Gotenks is already stronger than SS2 Vegeta before RoSaT. And when did I make shit up?

[dbzfan7]

We get some really good off topic stuff from them though. Remember that teleporting topic a while back? That was fun.

We need another one of those topics.

[Axiom]

Man once again he dodges every point thrown at him. Surprising huh .

Calm down.

Take a chill pill.

Relax.

CTFO.

Re-evaluate your heavily invested in DBZ Goku life.

You just agreed with me that Daizenshuu's aren't end all be all sources of information then straight up listed word for word a Daizenshuu line and narrowly interpreted it to follow your own viewpoint. Hypocritical much?

No. I don't like you, and I thought I made that very clear in the message you sent. I purposely try in minimize any time that I have to respond to you, even if that means completely ignoring your posts. You're an annoying wanna-be "forum veteran" that froths at the mouth everytime someone disagrees with you - yeah, I get it, you watched the show, you're a superfan, you've been here longer, you're better than me - whatever the fuck helps you sleep at night, go for it.

Just don't try to boss me around, or you and I will have a problem.

[Kaboom]

Just don't try to boss me around, or you and I will have a problem.

It's not him you have to worry about.

Carry on, everyone else.

[Hitiro]

What I want to know is why he keeps saying they had to get 50x stronger and that it is impossible? We all know that fusion has some hidden modifier that makes the fusion much much stronger than the fusee's. It isn't just a straight up addition of both the fusee's powers. If you want to interpret a 50x increase then we could look at it like this.

I'll use arbitrary numbers to make my point. These numbers by no means represent their actual power levels I'm just using them to illustrate a point.

Pre-RoSaT

Base Goten: 3 million
Base Trunks: 3 million

Base Vegeta: 6 million.
SSJ Vegeta: 6 mill * 50 = 300 million.
SSJ2 Vegeta: 6 mill * 100 = 600 million.

Base Gotenks: (3 mil + 3 mil) * 50(fake fusion modifier) = 300 million.

^Let us assume, for arguments sake, that the fusion modifier is the same as the SSJ modifier so they at least have a chance at escaping Fat Boo at base.

Post-RoSaT

Base Goten: 6 million
Base Trunks: 6 million

Base Gotenks: (6 mil + 6 mil) * 50 = 600 million.

^ Do you see what has happened? The boys have only doubled their base powerlevels and they have caught up with SSJ2 Vegeta. They don't need to train and get 50x stronger. They just need to train enough to get more out of the hax ability of the fusion.

[RandomGuy96]

It's just downright silly to have them surpass their previous SS selves in base (which they would do if you're taking the gag implications seriously) and to have Gotenks (pre) MANY TIMES stronger than SS3 Goku. Such a thing was never implied at all.

Where does the Daiz say fusion makes the fusees dozens of times stronger? Quote please. As far as I know that comes from the GT Perfect Files. If it did say that, it seems to contradict their line about Vegeta > Gotenks (pre) heavily: that line, paired with the Goten = Gohan in terms of battle power statement, would pretty much necessitate making fusion pure addition, A + B. Also, that line be Toriyama doesn't have to be interpreted as "the fusion boost is more than x50".