Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Hugo Boss]

I don't remember Vegeta saying he is #2, just that he is not interested in such spot. He sounds like he will surpass everyone above him in the ranks, including the current strongest (Goku). Also, I don't think this sentiment has to be consistent with the manga at all or that it directly contradicts any fact that I've seen.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think this sentiment has to be consistent with the manga at all or that it directly contradicts any fact that I've seen.

According to the manga, SS3 Goku & SS Gotenks are at around the same level, meaning that SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan are many times stronger than SS3 Goku. Goku said back in the Cell Games that there isn't much more room for improvement for him, which is why he didn't stay for a full year inside the RoSaT, and didn't enter inside for a 2nd year either, he didn't believe it would make a big difference. After 7 years of intense training in the Heaven, with a dead body, he reached SS2 & SS3, and as a SS2, he surpassed SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, but not by much, as Piccolo wasn't sure about it. And you are telling me that after 4 years of less intense training, Goku managed to become many times stronger than he was before, and it makes sense?

[h0kuten]

I don't think this sentiment has to be consistent with the manga at all or that it directly contradicts any fact that I've seen.

According to the manga, SS3 Goku & SS Gotenks are at around the same level, meaning that SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan are many times stronger than SS3 Goku. Goku said back in the Cell Games that there isn't much more room for improvement for him, which is why he didn't stay for a full year inside the RoSaT, and didn't enter inside for a 2nd year either, he didn't believe it would make a big difference. After 7 years of intense training in the Heaven, with a dead body, he reached SS2 & SS3, and as a SS2, he surpassed SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, but not by much, as Piccolo wasn't sure about it. And you are telling me that after 4 years of less intense training, Goku managed to become many times stronger than he was before, and it makes sense?

It took Goku 7 years to achieve 2 new Ssj transformations, and according to my numbers, increased his strength by 4x. Which is impressive.

Regardless, Dragonball Super debunks the 7 year theory by showing King Kai creating special training equipment for Goku.

P.S.
Gotenks Ssj Pre-ROST is weaker than Pre-Majin Vegeta until he hits the ROSAT.

P.P.S
Goku said he wouldn't enter for a second time around because it wouldn't give his body time to heal, not that he wouldn't get stronger.

[Draconic]

I don't think this sentiment has to be consistent with the manga at all or that it directly contradicts any fact that I've seen.

According to the manga, SS3 Goku & SS Gotenks are at around the same level, meaning that SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan are many times stronger than SS3 Goku. Goku said back in the Cell Games that there isn't much more room for improvement for him, which is why he didn't stay for a full year inside the RoSaT, and didn't enter inside for a 2nd year either, he didn't believe it would make a big difference. After 7 years of intense training in the Heaven, with a dead body, he reached SS2 & SS3, and as a SS2, he surpassed SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, but not by much, as Piccolo wasn't sure about it. And you are telling me that after 4 years of less intense training, Goku managed to become many times stronger than he was before, and it makes sense?

It took Goku 7 years to achieve 2 new Ssj transformations, and according to my numbers, increased his strength by 4x. Which is impressive.

Regardless, Dragonball Super debunks the 7 year theory by showing King Kai creating special training equipment for Goku.

P.S.
Gotenks Ssj Pre-ROST is weaker than Pre-Majin Vegeta until he hits the ROSAT.

Your numbers are yours, that doesn't mean they are true and how did you come to that conclusion?

Edit: edited so I don't sound like an ass.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It took Goku 7 years to achieve 2 new Ssj transformations, and according to my numbers, increased his strength by 4x. Which is impressive.

So, SS Gohan was x4 stronger than SS Goku in the Cell Games? How does this make sense?

Regardless, Dragonball Super debunks the 7 year theory by showing King Kai creating special training equipment for Goku.

What?

P.S.
Gotenks Ssj Pre-ROST is weaker than Pre-Majin Vegeta until he hits the ROSAT.

This is impossible, Piccolo would have noticed it if the difference was so huge between Gotenks & Boo, and would have him inside the RoSaT instantly. I also don't think that Goku's estimation would fall that much off.

P.P.S
Goku said he wouldn't enter for a second time around because it wouldn't give his body time to heal, not that he wouldn't get stronger.

No, that's not what he said. He said that any more training for him would be just torture, but told to Vegeta that he still has room for improvement so he should still get inside, implying that he doesn't have much more room for improvement.

[Truhan]

It took Goku 7 years to achieve 2 new Ssj transformations, and according to my numbers, increased his strength by 4x. Which is impressive.

Make it 5 times the increase so that his power level in the Buu saga is 30.000k at base, and 1.500.000k as a SSJ, which divided by 500, Babidi's assumed convertion, gives us 3.000 Kiri. Dabura's 4.000 kiri would likewise translate into a power level of 2.000.000k. It's all about the round numbers and formulas so that we can still use normal discourse. Making a list of power levels may encompass more things, like Zenkai and Rage boosts, but it makes things harder to sum up and talk about.

P.S.
Gotenks Ssj Pre-ROST is weaker than Pre-Majin Vegeta until he hits the ROSAT.

P.P.S
Goku said he wouldn't enter for a second time around because it wouldn't give his body time to heal, not that he wouldn't get stronger.

If Trunks (suppressed) and Goten were 2.250k each, going by an arbitrary formula of (A + B) * 10, Gotenks would be 45.000k, which is stronger than base Vegeta (let's assume he is 10 times stronger than Trunks with 25.000k). Majin (SSJ2) Vegeta would be 3.000.000k and SSJ Gotenks would be 2.250.000k, so it works well.

[h0kuten]

The Metamorn is more like Goten + Trunks as opposed to some kind of formula.

Cell Games

Goku
~Base 320,000,000
~50% 8,000,000,000
~Ssj 16,000,000,000

Gohan
~Base 480,000,000
~Ssj 24,000,000,000
~Ssj2 48,000,000,000
~Enraged 96,000,000,000

Buu Saga

Goku
~Base 1,200,000,000
~Ssj 60,000,000,000
[~Ssj2 Burst 100,000,000,000]
~Ssj2 120,000,000,000

Vegeta Pre-Majin
~Base 750,000,000
~Ssj 37,500,000,000
~Ssj2 75,000,000,000

The Metamorn is more like Goten + Trunks as opposed to some kind of formula.

The Super Exciting Guide state otherwise.

Daizenshuu states Gotenks is inferior to Vegeta prior to the RoSaT, begging for the fusion to be addition rather than multiplication.

Also, Piccolo's statements about Gotenks 'maybe being stronger' than his Ssj self was only stated when Gotenks was fusing, and successfully did so. Gotenks never even had a chance to power up.

Goku Ssj3 > Super Buu Initial >=< Fat Buu >=< Gotenks Ssj Post > Majin Vegeta Ssj2 > Gotenks Ssj Pre > Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Base Pre

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Metamorn is more like Goten + Trunks as opposed to some kind of formula.

The Super Exciting Guide, which was supervised by Toriyama, state otherwise. Not to mention that the manga also imples otherwise.

[Truhan]

The Metamorn is more like Goten + Trunks as opposed to some kind of formula.

Huh, it didn't even work against your own statement, and it would seem strange to me that their power levels added would be 25 times weaker than a SSJ transformation for each. It could be ((A + B) * Plot) for all I care, but let's assume it was the way I presented. A SSJ3 Gotenks would be 180.000.000k, which Goku would surpass as a fully powered SSJ3, if Full Power should be an increase of 1.6 over the transformation (640 times the increase).

(FP)SSJ Goku = 80 * Base Power Level
(FP)SSJ3 Goku = 640 * Base Power Level

[h0kuten]

The Metamorn is more like Goten + Trunks as opposed to some kind of formula.

Huh, it didn't even work against your own statement, and it would seem strange to me that their power levels added would be 25 times weaker than a SSJ transformation for each. It could be ((A + B) * Plot) for all I care, but let's assume it was the way I presented. A SSJ3 Gotenks would be 180.000.000k, which Goku would surpass as a fully powered SSJ3, if Full Power should be an increase of 1.6 over the transformation (640 times the increase).

(FP)SSJ Goku = 80 * Base Power Level
(FP)SSJ3 Goku = 640 * Base Power Level

I'm going to play around here and work with the Metamoran being addition rather than multiplication.

The Kids

Spoiler:

Goten
~Base 400,000,000
Trunks
~Base 440,000,000

Gotenks Pre-ROST

Spoiler:

~Base 840,000,000
~Ssj 42,000,000,000

Comparisons

Spoiler:

Fat Buu Full Power 150,000,000,000
Goku Ssj2 120,000,000,000
Vegeta Ssj2 Pre-Majin 75,000,000,000
Teen Gohan Ssj2 60,000,000,000

For me personally, it works way better.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku is a really big asshole for wanting the entire universe to be destroyed then.

[Truhan]

The Kids

Spoiler:

Goten
~Base 400,000,000
Trunks
~Base 440,000,000

Gotenks Pre-ROST

Spoiler:

~Base 840,000,000
~Ssj 42,000,000,000

Comparisons

Spoiler:

Fat Buu Full Power 150,000,000,000
Goku Ssj2 120,000,000,000
Vegeta Ssj2 Pre-Majin 75,000,000,000
Teen Gohan Ssj2 60,000,000,000

For me personally, it works way better.

Here's where the comparison fails: the kids have to be on even power. I'll allow you to change it, but using arbitrary numbers seems worse than using arbitrary formulas of power increase, because formulas allow anyone to enter their own values (which is why I'm doing a calculator), while fixed numbers work with your logic.

[h0kuten]

Goku is a really big asshole for wanting the entire universe to be destroyed then.

He is a big asshole for letting the younger generation have a shot at saving the Universe, he clearly states this by the way.



In this scan 10% of the Worlds Population died. Meaning Goku let 700 million people - a population twice the size of USA, die when he could have saved them all; men, woman, children, you name it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku is a really big asshole for wanting the entire universe to be destroyed then.

He is a big asshole for letting the younger generation have a shot at saving the Universe, he clearly states this by the way.

http://a.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/40-4 ... d/s080.jpg

In this scan 10% of the Worlds Population died. Meaning Goku let 700 million people - a population twice the size of USA, die when he could have saved them all; men, woman, children, you name it.

Goku allowed them to die because many people had already died, and they would use the DBs to bring them back, while there is no going back if the entire universe is destroyed. What you are suggesting is that Goku could defeat Fat Boo, but he told the kids that if they use SS Fusion, they can beat the Majin Boo that he supposedly couldn't defeat with his Super Saiyan 3, even though he knew they would end up weaker than him as a Super Saiyan 2, and he even forbit them from using the RoSaT, even though they should definitely use it... Piccolo saw this after SS Gotenks was finally formed, but he didn't get them inside the RoSaT either, since he also wanted them to die...

[h0kuten]

Goku is a really big asshole for wanting the entire universe to be destroyed then.

He is a big asshole for letting the younger generation have a shot at saving the Universe, he clearly states this by the way.

http://a.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/40-4 ... d/s080.jpg

In this scan 10% of the Worlds Population died. Meaning Goku let 700 million people - a population twice the size of USA, die when he could have saved them all; men, woman, children, you name it.

Goku allowed them to die because many people had already died, and they would use the DBs to bring them back. What you are suggesting is that Goku could defeat Fat Boo, but he told the kids that if they use SS Fusion, they can beat the Majin Boo that he supposedly couldn't defeat with his Super Saiyan 3, even though he knew they would end up weaker than him as a Super Saiyan 2, and he even forbit them from using the RoSaT, even though they should definitely use it...

It's immoral to let them die when he could have saved them. So clearly, Goku's reasoning and choices in the Majin Buu Saga are not 100% morally correct; quite the opposite really.

Piccolo had the younger generation in mind prior to knowing about Fusion. How? Why? Are they going to train on Earth and acquire Ssj3 individually and defeat Buu? Hell no! Piccolo had the RoSaT in mind all along.

Gotenks Ssj Pre still had a full day to train for his battle with Majin Buu. However, when Super Buu is able to sense Chi this makes the situation that much more die. There would be no time for Gotenks, or the boys, to endure training and actually defeat Fat Buu.

Further-more, the boys have never really trained on Earth and basically were simply born with high battle power. This means they would be able to endure gravity training or normal Earth bound training the same way Androids Saga Piccolo did and receive enormous gains, they're body still has a lot of room for improvement. To conclude this I'll finish with Goku stating Goten could surpass Mr.Buu with no more than Earth bound training.

1. Boo, Mister [#BO4#BOO#GOO]
Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P1.3
Context: after Goten and Boo are matched up in the tournament's first round
Goten: “Th-that can’t be! How can I go up against Boo right in the first round?!”
Goku: “It’s only a problem because you keep slacking off in your training.”

Conclusively, the boys entering the RoSaT quickly because of Super Buu is a factor of time and NOT because they cannot get stronger without the benefits of the RoSaT. So there is essentially nothing wrong with Gotenks Ssj Pre-ROST being weaker than Vegeta, because he still had a fully 24 hours to train for his bout.

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

This means that if Goten or Trunks get an increase of 1 in their battle power it will equate to 2 for Gotenks, meaning their increases would be double (as Gotenks) in comparison to what everybody else can do, specifically Androids Saga Piccolo since he's the best example of making massive gains with normal earth bound training.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Since when can 1 day of training give a huge increase in power?

[h0kuten]

Since when can 1 day of training give a huge increase in power?

a) Goku his way to Namek
b) Piccolo becoming over 300x stronger in a few years, essentially doubling his power every few days.

With that logic in mind, Gotenks Ssj Pre could go come being weaker than Majin Vegeta but as strong as Fat Buu with only 1 day of training, with the boys only increasing their full power by 50%

Hypothetical Situation with normal Earth training.

Fat Buu 15
Gotenks Base Post 15 (RoSaT)
Gotenks Ssj Pre 15 (Earth training)
Vegeta 10
Gotenks Ssj Pre 8
Teen Gohan 6
Gotenks Base Pre 4

Again, this is backed by this statement:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

Also, you failed to counter everything else I brought to the table.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku his way to Namek

Goku had a gravity room, and repeatedly got near-death power-ups thanks to his dangerous training & senzu. They boys don't have these.

b) Piccolo becoming over 300x stronger in a few years, essentially doubling his power every few days.

According to... your numbers?

Also, you failed to counter everything else I brought to the table.

You say that the boys never trained, while it is stated that Goten & Trunks are so strong because they have been sparring for years. You are saying that the boys can double their battle power in one day, even though Piccolo says that he expects them to have small gains. You are saying that Goku wanted the whole universe dead permanently because he was OK to have 1/10th of the planet killed temporarly.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku his way to Namek

Goku had a gravity room, and repeatedly got near-death power-ups thanks to his dangerous training & senzu. They boys don't have these.

b) Piccolo becoming over 300x stronger in a few years, essentially doubling his power every few days.

According to... your numbers?

Also, you failed to counter everything else I brought to the table.

You say that the boys never trained, while it is stated that Goten & Trunks are so strong because they have been sparring for years. You are saying that the boys can double their battle power in one day, even though Piccolo says that he expects them to have small gains. You are saying that Goku wanted the whole universe dead permanently because he was OK to have 1/10th of the planet killed temporarly.

[h0kuten]

Goku his way to Namek

Goku had a gravity room, and repeatedly got near-death power-ups thanks to his dangerous training & senzu. They boys don't have these.

Incorrect.

Chapter: 429 (DBZ 235), P2.2, P2.5, P4.1
Context: as Vegeta and (regular) Trunks train in the gravity room
Vegeta: “Don’t overdo it, Trunks. You’d better leave the room. This 150-fold gravity is too much for you.”

b) Piccolo becoming over 300x stronger in a few years, essentially doubling his power every few days.

According to... your numbers?

Nope, according to logic. He would need to increase somewhere around that amount to be stronger than a sick Goku Ssj in the Androids Arc and being able to one shot Android 20 Post.

Also, you failed to counter everything else I brought to the table.

You say that the boys never trained, while it is stated that Goten & Trunks are so strong because they have been sparring for years. You are saying that the boys can double their battle power in one day, even though Piccolo says that he expects them to have small gains. You are saying that Goku wanted the whole universe dead permanently because he was OK to have 1/10th of the planet killed temporarly.
The point is that their bodies have room to make huge improvements with normal or gravity training.