An observation on Dragon Ball's English-speaking fanbases.

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:21 am

I think just because of Toriyama/Toei's visuals the show would have beeen a hit. It just needed a place, and CN would have provided that.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:14 am

The thing with Funimation never got was that Dragonball succeded in spite of the inane shit they did to the show. Not because of it.

I like the Funimation voice group. I think they eventually got very good. As good as anime voice actors get. But the 99 dub was disgraceful. Its actually pretty good if you realise its an amateur cast. But why should a show with Dragonball's proven worldwide track record of success be submitted to crap like that?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:36 am

jjgp1112 wrote:That's what I'm saying. In my opinion, he blew it way out of proportion.

Really? Maybe I was just a weird kid then. You know what I used to think about Ronin Warriors? That it had a pretty kickass soundtrack, aside from an incredibly lame opening. Years later we get the DVDs, and it turns out they mostly left the BGM intact from Yoroiden Samurai Troopers, with the main exceptions being "Stardust Eyes" and the other themes. And, as a 12 year old action cartoon junkie, I loved every minute of it. By contrast, I always thought Teknoman had a catchy theme... and that was it. The only time the music was noteworthy in an ep was when they would play the theme itself. And, after purchasing Tekkaman Blade, it turns out that their music was a DBZ-style "keep 'em from being bored" snore fest. Ironic, no?

And, may I add, that at the same time Gen and co. were convinced they need to dumb things with Japanese material for US children, US shows were pretty engaging? Gen was thinking He-Man, GI Joe, and the Smurfs, but we were watching Batman:TAS, Gargoyles and Animaniacs. Warner Bros. and Disney thought we were a pretty hip bunch, and FUNimation thought we were hyper-active retards. You know what's cool about watching a show as a kid that has depth? It *encourages* you to think, instead of just shutting your brain off. And it enriches the experience as you get older, wiser, and recall some of your old favorites in a new light. I'll give you one example. I saw Guyver when I was... lord, I forget exactly, but I think 10 or 11. 12 at most. There's one part where a character who has infiltrated the corporate headquarters of the Japanese branch of Chronos' (an Umbrella-style evil corporation). When confronted by the President, he is asked for his identity, and replies that he may be called "Zeus." As a tyke, I thought it sounded cool, cuz I had a very basic understanding of who Zeus was. And later, when I learned Greek Mythology, that scene became pure gold to me. Not that Guyver should be considered a children's show... I'm just illustrating the kinds of things kids in my age group, at least in my state as far as I can tell, were watching and capable of understanding.

As a kid, I could smell producer bullshit. I could tell when something was being censored (no Tien, you can't see their parachutes. They are not ok), or when the music was soulless BGM meant to basically be filler. I accepted it, sure, but it wasn't anything I'd be caught dead on a forum defending to fans of the original. I've never really seen anyone defend the epic-ness of the Teknoman soundtrack, aside from maybe the theme. It just blows my mind that most of the generic crap we were fed in that era is regarded as such, but Faulconer (and I've got nothing personally against the guy) is lifted onto this pedestal where it's almost taboo to detract from his work.

I always appreciated certain levels of scoring, and always discarded generic music as just that. Thundercats, for example, has several tunes I could still hum today. Ask me to hum anything from the Street Sharks, though. I'm at a loss. I can't even remember it's theme song. And in my opinion, the scoring efforts for DBZ have generally been less Thundercats and more Street Sharks. The only time I cared about Dragon Ball music (in the dub) was the early dub of The Pilaf Saga. And that, while re-scored and "westernized," attempted to keep the spirit of the series intact. The Z score is a total re-imagining. Obviously I had never heard the original music, so that isn't even a comparison of the two. I just never thought much of the Levy score, and Faulconer's sounded like Levy on a budget. Insert obligatory "in the Buu Saga some of it got a better" commentary. I'm talking about the product as a whole.

Staying as neutral as I can, I'll just lay this out about the dub score.

They were on a shoestring budget and hired the affordable guy. They needed him to work on a spartan schedule to score the whole show from scratch while meeting the grueling timetable (which was, over here, faster than the Japanese airing schedule). They purposefully wanted a 100% different feel for the show than the original. It's even been said (by Bruce) that at times a scene is scored 100% different in tone, so as to break the tension of the moment.

I started watching this series as a kid. Even then I saw the BGM for what it was. A cheap rush job that was there to keep me from in some way being bored, and at times was scored with the intent, not to enhance a scene, but to make me NOT feel the impact! If people like the individual compositions, I have no problem with that. What I don't get is why when I say I didn't appreciate their "effort," given those facts, it comes off as the controversial stance more times than not. Why is it so odd have standards?

I don't think Kunzait blew anything out of proportion. Even if they felt the need to re-score the series, they chose to fill it up with as much random noise as possible. Hell, at least the Sailor Moon dub score fit the tone of the series (half of the BGM was just "Moonlight Densetsu" remixes anyway).

Y'know, again, I'm not trying to insult anyone's preference. But... please stop faulting us for not appreciating FUNimation's telling us what Dragon Ball was really about.

This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crLk9Q14ltI
No thank you. And notice that uploader figured he could score hits by spamming WWE info. Should tell you what demographic this music was aimed at.
This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzxkwweZy_w
No, and...what?
This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vec2pkFL6_E
No, and go fuck yourselves.
This? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkrbIzKr-j0
Nice work, FUNimation! I appreciate the effort!

PS- Raki, you're icon is full of win. Just thought you should know that.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:50 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:I’m being condescending? I’m being condescending? You read Gen’s comment and mine back to back and you take away MY comment as the one that’s condescending?

Yes, you're twisting Gen's words to meld it to your own point. Look we all know the original score is better composed than Faulconer's synthesizer. In addition I think we all know that FUNi's choice to throw music into EVERY SINGLE scene is completely unnecessary. Once I began watching the series in Japanese I finally understood what people were telling me about that sometimes "Silence is golden". HOWEVER, just because FUNi's choice of music was more loud and hard. Is no reason to jump to assuming that Gen thinks the people who like it are "stupid". The problem here is, you and some others seem to always chalk enjoyment of Faulconer's track up to pure ignorance of the original or because "It's what we originally knew"...Don't you think it's at all possible that people actually like it for what it is?

I know what I like. I've always loved Faulconer's music. There are just some scenes that I simply enjoy more with Faulconer's music because to me it makes the scene better. Yet I never enjoyed Menza's GT, Johnson's Ultimate Uncut, or quite a few of the Movies.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:39 am

May I ask, has that always been your opinion?

I'm just asking because the intense love for the Faulconer score seems to be a relatively recent thing in my experience. When season 3 started, the people I talked to who had been DBZ fans generally thought the music was worse than it had been in the first two seasons. People who were fresh to the series would say things around my school like "yea the music sucks" or "yea the acting's corny" and then add things like "but the action's tight" or praise the characters.

Maybe it's just apples and oranges. Someone in a comment on one of the Faulconer CD's took a shot at "subbies" (not that the dub detractors where any better in those comments). He/she preferred the dub because the actors brought more of a "cartoonish feel" to the characters, whereas the original cast was "far too serious."

Gozar wrote:I know what I like. I've always loved Faulconer's music. There are just some scenes that I simply enjoy more with Faulconer's music because to me it makes the scene better. Yet I never enjoyed Menza's GT, Johnson's Ultimate Uncut, or quite a few of the Movies.

I'll say this, though- you just, yourself, detracted from the dub music (a chunk of it, anyway). Even Gen in that posted interview said he didn't like the Levy score. Faulconer's music was scored in a similar manner (with a greater focus on character themes added to the mix), and Johnson's score seems like it was trying to be Levy's.

If any of us who don't like the majority of the dub's music were to bash Menza or Johnson, even most dub fans would join in. For some reason, if we add the Faulconer tracks to our "list of cheaply produced re-imaginings for the series that we didn't appreciate," there's this backlash of "back off our boy" defensiveness.

So...I guess... I just don't get it.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:53 am

Onikage725 wrote:May I ask, has that always been your opinion?

I'm just asking because the intense love for the Faulconer score seems to be a relatively recent thing in my experience. When season 3 started, the people I talked to who had been DBZ fans generally thought the music was worse than it had been in the first two seasons. People who were fresh to the series would say things around my school like "yea the music sucks" or "yea the acting's corny" and then add things like "but the action's tight" or praise the characters.

Maybe it's just apples and oranges. Someone in a comment on one of the Faulconer CD's took a shot at "subbies" (not that the dub detractors where any better in those comments). He/she preferred the dub because the actors brought more of a "cartoonish feel" to the characters, whereas the original cast was "far too serious."

I'm actually more of a late bloomer DBZ fan. I didn't get into it until Early 2002, so I really cannot speak on the matter of transition from Levy's Music to Faulconer's since I didn't have to go through that transition.

But as for that last comment...Is that true? I never really got the cartoony feel from the FUNi cast. The Ocean Cast on the other hand...Terry Klassen's Kuririn pretty much defines cartoony voice, lol (I like most of the other voices though).

I'll say this, though- you just, yourself, detracted from the dub music (a chunk of it, anyway). Even Gen in that posted interview said he didn't like the Levy score. Faulconer's music was scored in a similar manner (with a greater focus on character themes added to the mix), and Johnson's score seems like it was trying to be Levy's.

If any of us who don't like the majority of the dub's music were to bash Menza or Johnson, even most dub fans would join in. For some reason, if we add the Faulconer tracks to our "list of cheaply produced re-imaginings for the series that we didn't appreciate," there's this backlash of "back off our boy" defensiveness.

So...I guess... I just don't get it.

Hey, I don't deny you you're right to dislike Faulconer's Music. In fact I fully understand why you dislike it. What I have a problem with is when fans who like Faulconer get lumped in with the stereotypical ignorant Dub fans. Like there's only one type of person who can like Faulconer's music and that's it.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:14 am

Yeah, it's true that someone said that. Apparently the Amazon customer review sections on Dragon Ball music just devolves into dub vs sub ranting.

If there is nothing else I hold against FUNi, it is the distinct split. You'd think it was Democrats and Republicans going at each other. The fundamental truth is that at the end of the day, we're all Dragon Ball fans

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:32 am

Onikage725 wrote:If there is nothing else I hold against FUNi, it is the distinct split. You'd think it was Democrats and Republicans going at each other. The fundamental truth is that at the end of the day, we're all Dragon Ball fans

That's the exact point I've been trying to get across earlier in this topic. There's too much fighting amongst the fandom when in the end we're all fans of the same series. We all love DragonBall.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:56 pm

So, am I the only person who never paid attention to the music? Totally honest here, the only scene I can picture in my head and have the music with it is dub Goku's first SSJ transformation (and the intros to Z and GT, both languages, but those don't really count).

And I have listened to both (though admittedly not all). GT was the first DVDs I had of the series, so I switched over a lot to see what the Japanese version was like, and the music just didn't leave an impression on me, even the ending song, which I assume is the one everybody gushes over in other threads.

Which isn't to say the dub's is much better. I can conjure up two themes from memory -SSJ Transformation and Vegeta's Theme, and I suspect the latter is because I'm a sucker for bells.

Tweaker · Post by **Tweaker** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:04 pm

You know, sometimes I feel alone in that I don't find the dub a horrible crime to the show. I've watched it in both Japanese and English, and even English with the Japanese music, and I honestly don't find anything totally unredeemable about the dub. Yeah, maybe the dialogue is a bit forced in some parts, and there are some annoying bits where they completely destroy the intended feel of a scene (Goku approaching the Red Ribbon Army HQ in the original series is a good example), but for the most part I didn't find it bad at all. Especially when you figure in my nostalgia factor.

I watched a bunch of different dubs of DBZ last night, and I think it's absolutely stunning how different each one feels. The differences in voice acting and background music honestly give a totally different feel to the series. You can try and call this a good or bad thing, but I find it fascinating, really. I like the Japanese score the best, but I also think that both the Funimation and Ocean dubs have very different atmospheres for the show; so different, in fact, that they don't even seem the same! It's like watching each dub's episode one after another would deliver a totally different experience each time you watch it.

I know a lot of people prefer the original Japanese version of, well... basically everything, but I feel that how "horrible" it's portrayed is a bit overblown. I like each version for how they portray the show, but I wouldn't necessarily call any of them bad.

...unless you factor in BIG GREEN. Then yeah, you're pushing it. XD

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:04 pm

Rocketman wrote:So, am I the only person who never paid attention to the music?

Is this the same for any television show/movie?

-Corey

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:15 pm

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:38 pm

Gozar wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:I’m being condescending? I’m being condescending? You read Gen’s comment and mine back to back and you take away MY comment as the one that’s condescending?
Yes, you're twisting Gen's words to meld it to your own point. Look we all know the original score is better composed than Faulconer's synthesizer. In addition I think we all know that FUNi's choice to throw music into EVERY SINGLE scene is completely unnecessary. Once I began watching the series in Japanese I finally understood what people were telling me about that sometimes "Silence is golden". HOWEVER, just because FUNi's choice of music was more loud and hard. Is no reason to jump to assuming that Gen thinks the people who like it are "stupid". The problem here is, you and some others seem to always chalk enjoyment of Faulconer's track up to pure ignorance of the original or because "It's what we originally knew"...Don't you think it's at all possible that people actually like it for what it is?

I know what I like. I've always loved Faulconer's music. There are just some scenes that I simply enjoy more with Faulconer's music because to me it makes the scene better. Yet I never enjoyed Menza's GT, Johnson's Ultimate Uncut, or quite a few of the Movies.

Gozar,there is no need for anyone to twist Gen's words. Gen is a very straight foward man, so we can all take what he says at face value. He basically said that the score was changed to make more money and that "American kids won't listen to silence". Hell, I even think that he got rid of the silence just so there wouldn't be any moments where he didn't make more money.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:50 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:Is this the same for any television show/movie?

-Corey

Yeah, pretty much. Besides intro themes, there's very few pieces of music from TV or movies that I know offhand. Buffy's "Once More, With Feeling" episode is probably the most songs I remember from any single thing, but I'm not sure a musical episode counts.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:24 pm

Saago · Post by **Saago** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:38 pm

I just had to register to congratulate Kunzait_83 and the others for their uncommonly good and reasonable arguments.

But as long as I'm here, I also want to share my point of view. I personally consider the dub an insult to the series, the author and the audience. Why? Well, that question could very well be answered with another question: if the English dub of Dragon Ball isn't an insult to the original version, can someone please explain me what on Earth does a dub need to do to be considered an insult?

I mean: we have a completely different music, all dialogues are written almost from scratch, another bunch of dialogue is invented so they can fill all the gaps where the original characters don't talk at all, character development and motivations are totally changed, hundreds of references are lost, the voices have absolutely NOTHING to do with the original (and I'm not saying they are not very similar; I'm saying they are actually OPPOSED to the Japanese voices, as opposed as they could possibly get), the actors' approach to the characters (yet again) has nothing to do with the approach of the original actors... Seriously, what else do they need to do? What else can they do? Appearently they can change whatever they want, because Goku is still the main character, he still fights a guy named Freeza and Krilin is still bald, therefore the core of the series remains intact!

Well, let's put a different example. Let's imagine the Japanese decide to dub Revenge of the Sith (of course, I assume they already did when the movie was released in 2005, but it's just an example). Let's imagine they dub the final duel scene (just in case, spoilers ahead). Let's imagine they decide to change the music. Let's imagine they change the context of the fight: in this version, they are just practicing some "swordfighting in hard enviroments" ("you know, all that 'friends that become enemies...', maybe it's too much for kids to handle). So what happens in this version is that both friends are practicing ("we can add some jokes while the mouths are not seen!") and Obi-Wan makes a mistake, injuring poor Anakin ("let's just change 'You were the chosen one!' for 'Oh, gosh! Sorry pal, didn't mean to!' or something like that"), and he gets incredibly angry.
Hey, it's not actually an insult to the original version of the movie! You know, Obi-Wan and Anakin still fight, they still fight in a place full of lava, the scenes of the fight remain the same, Obi-Wan still wins, and Anakin is still burnt by the lava; the gist is there! ("and we get to teach all the children at home that they shouldn't play dangerous games with their friends! Or much better: 'If you play with fire you get burnt!' Oh, my! What a great pun! You actually see the fire burning him, so there's no way the kids are gonna get bored or confused! They're gonna love it")

I have a feeling that this hypothetical version of Revenge of the Sith wouldn't be accepted by all those who consider the English dub of Dragon Ball as a perfectly valid alternative approach of the same events. No, they wouldn't say that in the end, English or Japanese, the movie is the same. And it makes perfect sense: you can't call "the same" something that has different music, different dialogues, different jokes, different interpretations, different approach, different feel and different mood. It's not. It simply isn't. Art (when talking about movies, series and literature) is more than some basic plot guidelines. It's a whole. And even when you are translating or dubbing properly (especially dubbing) you risk compromising that whole, so imagine what happens when you are actually, deliberately creating "alternative versions".

It doesn't cease to amaze me how English dubs seem to have (for some people; for a lot of people) the right to do whatever they want if they feel like. It's like the responsibles think "Hey, this is not your regular French, Spanish or German dub! We are dealing with English here! This is the real deal! This is more than a dub! We are not actually doing dubs, we are doing alternative, equally valid versions! Not better, not worse, just different!". Well, I've got some news: when it comes to translating and dubbing, different (that is, unnecesarily different) means bad. If you want to do something different, you should create your own series/movie/book, not transform the work of another person/company in what you want it to be. That IS a crime; an artistic crime. Can you imagine how the world would be if all translations and dubs followed the same philosophy of Dragon Ball's English dub?

The English version of Dragon Ball is not Dragon Ball. It's a TV series created by Funimation using the visual footage of Dragon Ball and its basic plot guidelines. No more, no less. And if someone wants to feel insulted by it, they should, indeed, feel insulted by Funimation. Because let me remind you that even before Funimation ACQUIRED the licence, Dragon Ball had been already broadcasted around the WORLD. The series was already a WORLDWIDE success, it was already the most famous anime series of all time; all kids EVERYWHERE loved it with its original music, its original mood and its original pace. Yet, Funimation thought that the series was not accesible enough for the American kids, EVEN when all the other kids in the ENTIRE PLANET had enjoyed it, even when all the other children in the WORLD had had no problem at ALL. Does this mean that everyone who likes the English version is dumb? Absolutely not. Does this mean that Funimation made the dub the way it is because they thought (they) the US kids are/were dumber than the kids in other countries? Obviously yes.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:50 pm

Saago, I believe I could not possibly say anything less than that you just "won the Universe."

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:58 pm

Faulconer's music was scored in a similar manner (with a greater focus on character themes added to the mix), and Johnson's score seems like it was trying to be Levy's.

No every good theme Falcouner did was a knock off of Paul Hertzog movie scores to varying degrees.

Well, let's put a different example. Let's imagine the Japanese decide to dub Revenge of the Sith (of course, I assume they already did when the movie was released in 2005, but it's just an example). Let's imagine they dub the final duel scene (just in case, spoilers ahead). Let's imagine they decide to change the music. Let's imagine they change the context of the fight: in this version, they are just practicing some "swordfighting in hard enviroments" ("you know, all that 'friends that become enemies...', maybe it's too much for kids to handle). So what happens in this version is that both friends are practicing ("we can add some jokes while the mouths are not seen!") and Obi-Wan makes a mistake, injuring poor Anakin ("let's just change 'You were the chosen one!' for 'Oh, gosh! Sorry pal, didn't mean to!' or something like that"), and he gets incredibly angry.

Except for the Saban era (and even then its a streach) Funimation never took liberties like that.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:13 pm

Victator Supreme wrote:Except for the Saban era (and even then its a streach) Funimation never took liberties like that.

"I didn't care anymore! I didn't care about being better that Kakarrot! I didn't care if I lived!" etc ;p

-Corey

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:34 pm

("we can add some jokes while the mouths are not seen!")

I would dislike this more if the characters didn't spend so much time just silently staring at each other. Then we cut to the people who aren't fighting to watch them watching the fighters watch each other. Then we cut back to the fighters to see if they're gonna move yet. Nope.... so the camera gets bored and goes off to see what the D-list characters are doing. Oh ho ho, aren't their antics/irony silly. Then we go back to watching the sidelines watching the fighters watching each other. Realize somebody got paid to copy the exact same frame fifteen thousand times. Wait...music swelling! Cut back to the fighters! Ohshitohshitohshit that guy's tensing up and...and..! Freeze-frame as he starts to charge, episode ends.

Hooray!

On a different note, the prequels may not've been been the best analogy for the sanctity of dialogue, given Episode 2's gems about sand being rough, not like you, Padme. You're smooth.