Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

He just said goku absorbed SSG power and made it his own, which means that he can access it by going SS and powering up hard

Toriyama never stated this explicitly.

I agree that he can access more of it by going SS. However, he can access most of it at Base, given how well (way way better) he did against 70% Beerus. If 5% Beerus was the Beerus who owned SS3 Goku, then that just shows you the gap between SS3 Goku and Base Goku. Base SSG Goku is several times more powerful than SS3 Goku.

Oh, here's some calculations to show Piccolo's potential power boost according to the Base = SSG theory:

If SS3 Goku is a 0.3 on the scale of gods, then SS Goku is a 0.3 / 8 = 0.0375 since SS3 is a x8 power boost over SS. I'm assuming that Piccolo is now equal to SS BoG Goku, due to training since the Cell Games, although that is probably being generous.

Piccolo did really well against a depleted Frost, who might be around 8 or something on the scale of gods at full power. Let's say Piccolo is a 6. Then 6 / 0.0375 = Piccolo got a x160 power boost, or in other words he unlocked a transformation better than SS2 which gives a x100 boost to Base.

Why would frost be a 8 on the god scale?

Even if all u6 fighters r god tier, which i dont believe, none besides hit r going beyond 5.

[apex_pretador]

He just said goku absorbed SSG power and made it his own, which means that he can access it by going SS and powering up hard

Toriyama never stated this explicitly.

I agree that he can access more of it by going SS. However, he can access most of it at Base, given how well (way way better) he did against 70% Beerus. If 5% Beerus was the Beerus who owned SS3 Goku, then that just shows you the gap between SS3 Goku and Base Goku. Base SSG Goku is several times more powerful than SS3 Goku.

Oh, here's some calculations to show Piccolo's potential power boost according to the Base = SSG theory:

If SS3 Goku is a 0.3 on the scale of gods, then SS Goku is a 0.3 / 8 = 0.0375 since SS3 is a x8 power boost over SS. I'm assuming that Piccolo is now equal to SS BoG Goku, due to training since the Cell Games, although that is probably being generous.

Piccolo did really well against a depleted Frost, who might be around 8 or something on the scale of gods at full power. Let's say Piccolo is a 6. Then 6 / 0.0375 = Piccolo got a x160 power boost, or in other words he unlocked a transformation better than SS2 which gives a x100 boost to Base.

Your theory makes no sense because your initial assumption is wrong.

Toriyama never said that goku can access all SSG power in base, explicitly either, and shows what I said in DBS.

Also, the % system was removed in DBS. Base goku didn't fight beerus either.


Most importantly, I hate the multiplier - into - everything thing.
I believe SS3 gotenks is 9x - 10x as strong as base gotenks because that's what looks like.

Also, on bolded part:
If depleted frost is 8, then FP frost must be like 8.8 & SS goku must be like 10++ and SSb goku must be above beerus and likely whis.

Yet another reason why your theory of base = SSG makes no sense.


Your logic : There are two bases because if we assume SSG =< Base is true then nothing else makes sense
My logic : Base >= buuhan , and there is one base because everything points out at that.

[buutenks]

I dont see why base goku cant sit perfectly fine inbetween vegetto and buuhan's BP.

yes there is the toriyama interview, but that was years ago and he proly already forgot what he said there and as many pointed out toriyama never specifies if in base or not.

and yes goku and vegeta took an 'unrestrained' ki bast, which doesnt make sense since if it were at 100% it should have killed them either way.

But then we have whis' statement and then in u6 tournament, it is shown base and ss have a big gap and ssj blue.

Plus everyone says freeza became a monster only after he went into his golden form, while ff freeza, everyone were shocked at how powerful freeza got, which makes sense considering he got from his old low ssj tier to buuhan level.

To me it makes more sense that base goku is simply not god tier but just super powerful and ofc above buu saga chars, except for vegetto.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama never said that goku can access all SSG power in base, explicitly either, and shows what I said in DBS.

Toriyama himself may have not said that himself, but he wrote the scripts for BoG & FnF, and supervised the FnF manga adaptation. In BoG, it is stated that Goku's power didn't decrease much after he lost SSG, not after he became a SS. This is obvious from the fight as well, since base Goku didn't fight worst than he did as a SSG, and he even managed to land a hit. And no, he never lost any power after that, since the FnF manga shows that he still has the power of SSG in his base form. Furthermore, if you count video-games, in Dragon Ball Heroes, a card of base FnF Goku was released in order to promote the movie, where he transforms into a powered-up version of his base form (with no visible difference in his appearance) into "a Saiyan that has surpassed God", which means that FnF base Goku was supposed not just as strong, but stronger than he was as a SSG in BoG.

The Super anime seems to have retconned this and has made base Goku & Vegeta x50 weaker than SSG (and we'll have to wait how the manga will handle this), but there is no doubt taht Toriyama's intention was to have base Goku on the same level as Super Saiyan God.

[Lord Beerus]

He just said goku absorbed SSG power and made it his own, which means that he can access it by going SS and powering up hard

Toriyama never stated this explicitly.

I agree that he can access more of it by going SS. However, he can access most of it at Base, given how well (way way better) he did against 70% Beerus. If 5% Beerus was the Beerus who owned SS3 Goku, then that just shows you the gap between SS3 Goku and Base Goku. Base SSG Goku is several times more powerful than SS3 Goku.

Oh, here's some calculations to show Piccolo's potential power boost according to the Base = SSG theory:

If SS3 Goku is a 0.3 on the scale of gods, then SS Goku is a 0.3 / 8 = 0.0375 since SS3 is a x8 power boost over SS. I'm assuming that Piccolo is now equal to SS BoG Goku, due to training since the Cell Games, although that is probably being generous.

Piccolo did really well against a depleted Frost, who might be around 8 or something on the scale of gods at full power. Let's say Piccolo is a 6. Then 6 / 0.0375 = Piccolo got a x160 power boost, or in other words he unlocked a transformation better than SS2 which gives a x100 boost to Base.

Why would frost be a 8 on the god scale?

Even if all u6 fighters r god tier, which i dont believe, none besides hit r going beyond 5.

I personally don't think any of the U6 fighters are on the 6-10-15 God scale.

[Chiki]

Toriyama never said that goku can access all SSG power in base, explicitly either, and shows what I said in DBS.

Toriyama himself may have not said that himself, but he wrote the scripts for BoG & FnF, and supervised the FnF manga adaptation. In BoG, it is stated that Goku's power didn't decrease much after he lost SSG, not after he became a SS. This is obvious from the fight as well, since base Goku didn't fight worst than he did as a SSG, and he even managed to land a hit. And no, he never lost any power after that, since the FnF manga shows that he still has the power of SSG in his base form. Furthermore, if you count video-games, in Dragon Ball Heroes, a card of base FnF Goku was released in order to promote the movie, where he transforms into a powered-up version of his base form (with no visible difference in his appearance) into "a Saiyan that has surpassed God", which means that FnF base Goku was supposed not just as strong, but stronger than he was as a SSG in BoG.

The Super anime seems to have retconned this and has made base Goku & Vegeta x50 weaker than SSG (and we'll have to wait how the manga will handle this), but there is no doubt taht Toriyama's intention was to have base Goku on the same level as Super Saiyan God.

Thank you for that manga panel. :O That's perfect evidence about what Toriyama implied when he said it.

So we have 3 theories competing with each other:

1. The retcon theory
2. Two bases theory
3. All of U6 is god tier theory

[LightBing]

I see the argument regarding that panel, but honestly looking at Super's manga. It's full; and I mean full of references. In this case being a callback to Goku's "Oozaru Spirit", I assume.
I honestly doubt Mr.Toriyama, when supervising that panel made the connection of representing SSJG power.

Talking about what Mr.Toriyama actually wrote, it's hard to guess. Here's what I believe is true, if a particular moment and outcome is in both medias, then it's definitely Mr.Toriyama's hand.
Two examples: Chi-Chi coming to the rescue of Goku after losing to Frost and Piccolo losing due to Frost's poison.
Meaning that the whole Makankasappo ordeal and the fight in the manga were imagined by Toei and Toyotarõ respectively, the outcome was the only thing Mr.Toriyama provided.

If people dispute the Whis line as a Toei contradiction, fair game. However one can also dispute the manga, I prefer how Assault Frost is depicted in the manga as weaker than Base Goku, contrary to the anime were both are even, with Frost maybe slightly superior.

What's should be untouchable is what exists in both the anime and the manga.

[Bullza]

Thank you for that manga panel. :O That's perfect evidence about what Toriyama implied when he said it.

It doesn't really mean all that much. The same thing happened back when Goku killed Piccolo and there was an image of Oozaru behind him.

[Chiki]

Thank you for that manga panel. :O That's perfect evidence about what Toriyama implied when he said it.

It doesn't really mean all that much. The same thing happened back when Goku killed Piccolo and there was an image of Oozaru behind him.

Between both Toriyama's statement and that manga panel, the proof is 100% incontrovertible. You just can't deny it.

You can still defend your view if you think that there's some retconning going on, however.

[Hugo Boss]

In this case, I think Toyotaro intends to represent Super Saiyan God's power, because Goku managed to cut a bit of Whis' hair, which is something more or less within Super Saiyan God's capabilities, I guess. When Goku fought Piccolo back then, I got the impression Toriyama really wanted to represent Goku as if he had the power of Oozaru, then I wouldn't see any problem with Toyotaro using that as reference.

I never heard about a retcon theory. Which is its foundation?

[Draconic]

Goku definetley kept the God power in base, since he is leagues above what he was at the beginning of BoG. That panel reflects that, but it doesn't mean that Goku is equal to that power in base. There is just no way to fit two transformations, both shown as of now to be consistent boosts over the other and still have Goku way below Beerus.

[Bullza]

Between both Toriyama's statement and that manga panel, the proof is 100% incontrovertible. You just can't deny it.

Toriyama's statements don't imply his base form is equal to SSJG. He said he absorbed the power and made it his own which is true but doesn't mean they're equal. The manga panel implies it but that it's the same as the Oozaru scene, it wasn't in the movie, it wasn't in Super and Toriyama didn't create the chapter.

If Base Goku is a 6 then SSJ Goku is a 300. That's obviously not the case. SSJ Goku is less than a 10 and so Base Goku is less than a 0.2.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku definetley kept the God power in base, since he is leagues above what he was at the beginning of BoG. That panel reflects that, but it doesn't mean that Goku is equal to that power in base. There is just no way to fit two transformations, both shown as of now to be consistent boosts over the other and still have Goku way below Beerus.

I think Base Goku will remain one of the great mysteries of the franchise. Let's face it, we're never going to get a concrete answer.

[Draconic]

Goku definetley kept the God power in base, since he is leagues above what he was at the beginning of BoG. That panel reflects that, but it doesn't mean that Goku is equal to that power in base. There is just no way to fit two transformations, both shown as of now to be consistent boosts over the other and still have Goku way below Beerus.

I think Base Goku will remain one of the great mysteries of the franchise. Let's face it, we're never going to get a concrete answer.

Sad thing is... you're right. Unless maybe we get a Super Guide Book. I don't see this being addressed in the series proper.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I see the argument regarding that panel, but honestly looking at Super's manga. It's full; and I mean full of references. In this case being a callback to Goku's "Oozaru Spirit", I assume.

It doesn't really mean all that much. The same thing happened back when Goku killed Piccolo and there was an image of Oozaru behind him.

Why would Toyotaro randomly have SSG Goku behind base Goku? Back in the Piccolo fight, the Oozaru was symbolizing Goku's dormant powers that he had just drawn out. Why would the SSG form appear behind Goku during a training session? What else could it possibly mean?

And again, this isn't the only thing that points at Goku having the SSG powers in the movies.

[Bullza]

So I decided to have a deeper look at the Super manga and see how it compares.

Base Goku took a hit from SSJB and was hurt but not badly kijda like when Beerus blasted him. That doesn't necessarily mean he's God tier because it was just a generic blast and SSJ Trunks blasted Goten at the back of the head and he was fine.

Goku seems to be slightly superior to Vegeta as the RoF movie also implied.

Key line by the narrator

"...And through training with Whis, were able to progress into a new evolution of power nearing that of the Gods, Super Saiyan Blue

Which obviously implies that they weren't close to the power of Gods before SSJB doesn't it? If Base = SSJG then they're already nearing the power of Gods then.

In the manga Base Goku could be stronger than Assault Frost because he says he's a slow starter. He transforms only really to push Frost to transform. This is the same in the anime though it does make Goku look weaker because he flew through his Kamehameha.

In the manga Final Form Frost seems to hold up a little better against SSJ Goku than in the anime.

Piccolo doesn't say anything about him being underestimated in the manga. He knows he can't beat Final Form Frost and practically asks him to hold back and go down a form, this was also in the anime.

In the manga Frost's stamina drops as quickly as Piccolo's so not at an usual accelerated rate. Though in the anime Frost says he no longer has the power to accidentally kill him implying so he hadn't got weaker.

It is possible that Base Goku could be stronger than Piccolo.

Also Frost doesn't come across as nearly as big a scumbag as he does in the anime.

[LightBing]

In the manga Base Goku could be stronger than Assault Frost because he says he's a slow starter. He transforms only really to push Frost to transform. This is the same in the anime though it does make Goku look weaker because he flew through his Kamehameha.

He also says the same thing in the anime. But he takes a direct hit from Frost, is knocked down, get's up easily stretching like nothing happened. Surprising Frost. Implying he's not trying much, only going SSJ to force him to transform. Which he directly said.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

"...And through training with Whis, were able to progress into a new evolution of power nearing that of the Gods, Super Saiyan Blue

I think you are checking wrong translations here. Herms translated it like this:

However, after meeting Beerus and Whis, Goku and Vegeta received training from Whis, managing to evolve into Super Saiyan Blue, a form surpassing Super Saiyan God.

[Draconic]

"...And through training with Whis, were able to progress into a new evolution of power nearing that of the Gods, Super Saiyan Blue

I think you are checking wrong translations here. Herms translated it like this:

However, after meeting Beerus and Whis, Goku and Vegeta received training from Whis, managing to evolve into Super Saiyan Blue, a form surpassing Super Saiyan God.

It's still the same thing. If they only surpass SSG after achieving SSB, yet can still turn SSJ, it means their base forms are not God level.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

"...And through training with Whis, were able to progress into a new evolution of power nearing that of the Gods, Super Saiyan Blue

I think you are checking wrong translations here. Herms translated it like this:

However, after meeting Beerus and Whis, Goku and Vegeta received training from Whis, managing to evolve into Super Saiyan Blue, a form surpassing Super Saiyan God.

It's still the same thing. If they only surpass SSG after achieving SSB, yet can still turn SSJ, it means their base forms are not God level.

It's not. Super Saiyan Blue is the form beyond Super Saiyan God, not base. This isn't talking about Goku's power, it's talking about the form's power increase.