Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

He also says the same thing in the anime. But he takes a direct hit from Frost, is knocked down, get's up easily stretching like nothing happened. Surprising Frost. Implying he's not trying much, only going SSJ to force him to transform. Which he directly said.

Well in the manga the fight lasted a whole two pages. Frost knocked Goku down and he smiled, hopped back up, stretched and said it woke him up and that he's a slow starter. Then he transforms to get Frost to show his true power.

In the anime the end result is almost the same but the fight is shown to be much more in Frost's favour.

I'll put that aside though if the point they're trying to make is that Goku wasn't fighting seriously. If he were serious it's hard to say if he would have still been weaker, stronger or equal.

I think you are checking wrong translations here. Herms translated it like this

Even that translation implies the same thing. As a SSJB they say he surpassed SSJG. The narration in the anime also said that didn't it?

If Goku was supposed to have just absorbed that power and he was supposed to be that strong anyway then why are they specifically separating SSJG from Goku's ordinary state? They should say that he surpassed his current state of he reached new heights or "a form surpassing Saiyan beyond God" etc.

Both versions are clearing separating normal Goku from Super Saiyan God.

[ssbgoku]

In the manga Base Goku could be stronger than Assault Frost because he says he's a slow starter. He transforms only really to push Frost to transform. This is the same in the anime though it does make Goku look weaker because he flew through his Kamehameha.

He also says the same thing in the anime. But he takes a direct hit from Frost, is knocked down, get's up easily stretching like nothing happened. Surprising Frost. Implying he's not trying much, only going SSJ to force him to transform. Which he directly said.

Exactly, actually it seems just repeat of frieza vs ssj goku where he let frieza overhelm him for a bit once frieza reached 100% in dragon ball z. The lack of aura around base goku or even bing damaged shows to me that third form frost is below base goku. Same with base cabba being below base vegeta.

In first case, Goku only transformed due to theme ssj goku vs final form frieza namek battle I guess toei though it would be more entertaining and brining memories back would be great for sale.

In second case, Vegeta was only impressed by Cabba going for galick gun, but he wasn't exeggerating himself either. This way I have:

ssj goku/vegeta - 60% of beerus
suprassed ssj goku/vegeta(around 50%) - 35% beerus
enraged ssj cabba
heavily suprassed ssj goku(much less then 50%)/fp magenta - 30% of beerus
final form frost/ssj cabba - ssj vegetto
suprassed base goku/vegeta(less then 50%)/third form frost - vegetto
base cabba/initial magenta
suprassed/tired final form frost - buutenks
enraged Mr buu - super buu
Piccolo - calm fat buu
first form frost - bog ssj3 goku
botamo - ssj2 tier

The mystery is where full base goku could be placed and how supressed final form frost compares to third form frost at full power.

I just guess when goku was talking about buu being crazy powerfull and favour him over picoolo he was't talking about calm Mr buu but only taking in consideration how powerfull he is while enraged. Also it would refer to Akira's interview about buu's terryfing almost bottomless power of which even buu is not aware of and short bust of it are expelled while he got angry...

[Bullza]

SSJ Cabba is the key to why these other characters aren't God tier.

Before we assumed SSJ Goku/Vegeta was like a 6 because they'd absorbed the SSJG power and it made SSJ = SSJG as Beerus suggested.

But that doesn't look to be the case at all now because Cabba as Super Saiyan wasn't all that far off from them with just ordinary SSJ.

If SSJ Cabba was say a 4 or a 5 on the God scale then if he'd turned SSJ2 he'd be almost as strong as Beerus. SSJ3 Cabba would be 2-3 as strong as Whis and theres no way.

Surely SSJB Vegeta > SSJ3 Cabba

So if SSJB Vegeta was an 8 then SSJ3 Cabba is less than that and SSJ Cabba couldn't even be a 1.

[TheMikado]

SSJ Cabba is the key to why these other characters aren't God tier.

Before we assumed SSJ Goku/Vegeta was like a 6 because they'd absorbed the SSJG power and it made SSJ = SSJG as Beerus suggested.

But that doesn't look to be the case at all now because Cabba as Super Saiyan wasn't all that far off from them with just ordinary SSJ.

If SSJ Cabba was say a 4 or a 5 on the God scale then if he'd turned SSJ2 he'd be almost as strong as Beerus. SSJ3 Cabba would be 2-3 as strong as Whis and theres no way.

Surely SSJB Vegeta > SSJ3 Cabba

So if SSJB Vegeta was an 8 then SSJ3 Cabba is less than that and SSJ Cabba couldn't even be a 1.

I don't see why it should make a difference. You would have the same problem if Goku went SSJ3. If he was a 6 as SSJ he would be a 48 on the God scale. But instead Goku seems to have miraculously learned SSB and remembered Kaioken after over a decade while simultaneously forgetting SSJ 2 and 3.

Edit: and I'm saying this for perspective. Them not using SSJ2 or 3 isn't doing us a favor, it's because the narrative has written itself into a corner where if Goku actually used either of those abilities he's shown using. In past 20 years then it would destroy the Beerus strength thing due to how stronger Regular SSJ is now.

[Bullza]

And so the same is true for Goku. SSJ Goku can not be a 6 because as a SSJ3 he'd be over three times as strong as Whis but Vegeta said SSJB is the strongest version and that form is weaker than Beerus.

So there's no way SSJ Goku and as a result any other character in this tournament outside of their SSJB forms and Hit can be as high as a 1.

He probably hasn't forgotten SSJ2 and SSJ3. They've been able to deal with everyone with just SSJ1 so far up till Hit who is as strong or stronger than SSJB so there's no need for those two.

[TheMikado]

And so the same is true for Goku. SSJ Goku can not be a 6 because as a SSJ3 he'd be over three times as strong as Whis but Vegeta said SSJB is the strongest version and that form is weaker than Beerus.

So there's no way SSJ Goku and as a result any other character in this tournament outside of their SSJB forms and Hit can be as high as a 1.

He probably hasn't forgotten SSJ2 and SSJ3. They've been able to deal with everyone with just SSJ1 so far up till Hit who is as strong or stronger than SSJB so there's no need for those two.

I thought Toriyama was said they wouldn't be going SSJ 2 or 3

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think the 6/10 is no longer viable. If anything, it should be 6/20 or more. It almost seems like Goku is is gaining nothing if that scale applies to the U6 tournament.

[Chiki]

And so the same is true for Goku. SSJ Goku can not be a 6 because as a SSJ3 he'd be over three times as strong as Whis but Vegeta said SSJB is the strongest version and that form is weaker than Beerus.

So there's no way SSJ Goku and as a result any other character in this tournament outside of their SSJB forms and Hit can be as high as a 1.

He probably hasn't forgotten SSJ2 and SSJ3. They've been able to deal with everyone with just SSJ1 so far up till Hit who is as strong or stronger than SSJB so there's no need for those two.

I thought Toriyama was said they wouldn't be going SSJ 2 or 3

Toriyama's own statements don't mean anything in this thread anymore, just look at this:

I think the 6/10 is no longer viable. If anything, it should be 6/20 or more. It almost seems like Goku is is gaining nothing if that scale applies to the U6 tournament.

I agree with you that it is weird that Goku is gaining nothing. But I think this can be explained if we say that SSB is a relatively small boost.

[TheMikado]

I think the 6/10 is no longer viable. If anything, it should be 6/20 or more. It almost seems like Goku is is gaining nothing if that scale applies to the U6 tournament.

I'm fine with this, especially since the 70% wasn't in Super.
But we still need to resolve Vegeta's 10% of Beerus because it scales Beerus down.

Even if the scale was 6/20 or 6/30, Goku should still be able to technically pass it with SSJ3.

[Hugo Boss]

I think the 6/10 is no longer viable. If anything, it should be 6/20 or more. It almost seems like Goku is is gaining nothing if that scale applies to the U6 tournament.

It still works perfectly within the movie, with Whis asserting Beerus was using 70% of his full power while Beerus had a slight advantage over Goku, who presumably had 60%. Perhaps the anime applies some kind of video-games-logic to power gaps? Dragon Ball GT left that impression on me too.

[Bullza]

I thought Toriyama was said they wouldn't be going SSJ 2 or 3

Well he did and so far it's true because they haven't appeared. That probably doesn't mean that they can't do it though, isn't it supposed to eat through a lot of power quickly? If SSJB doesn't have the same problem and it's stronger then there's no need for them to ever use it again.

Even if the scale was 6/20 or 6/30, Goku should still be able to technically pass it with SSJ3.

But that's only under the assumption that his current SSJ is equal to his SSJ when he fought Beerus and had the SSJG power running through it. We don't know if the SSJG power is still running through his SSJ form, though it would seem not to be because that's what SSJB is supposed to be.

[TheMikado]

I think the problem is that you have a direct quote from Toriyama and works that he directly worked on and then we have an anime based on his work being produced which pretty much contradicts that to he point where both cannot really be reconciled. So then you have those who are siding with Toriyama and those who are siding with Toei interpetation which for some people could be considered blasphemous lol.

[TheMikado]

I thought Toriyama was said they wouldn't be going SSJ 2 or 3

Well he did and so far it's true because they haven't appeared. That probably doesn't mean that they can't do it though, isn't it supposed to eat through a lot of power quickly? If SSJB doesn't have the same problem and it's stronger then there's no need for them to ever use it again.

Even if the scale was 6/20 or 6/30, Goku should still be able to technically pass it with SSJ3.

But that's only under the assumption that his current SSJ is equal to his SSJ when he fought Beerus and had the SSJG power running through it. We don't know if the SSJG power is still running through his SSJ form, though it would seem not to be because that's what SSJB is supposed to be.

That reasoning REALLY doesn't make sense after the last fight because Goku specifically said the whole reason he was fighting in base is because SSB really eat through his stamina. If that's the case I don't see what he wouldn't try a "lower" SSJ form just until he figures it out. He should be pretty comfortable in FSSJ without stamina loss.

[Bullza]

Well even if SSJB caused his stamina to drain fast like SSJ2 and SSJ3 it's still stronger so not much reason to use them.

Goku did just fine in base form already that he didn't turn Super Saiyan so shouldn't have had to go higher. I do wonder if he'll just jump to SSJB in the next episode though it if he'll work his way up, he probably won't though.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Even that translation implies the same thing. As a SSJB they say he surpassed SSJG.

Again, that's not what it says. It doesn't say "Goku & Vegeta surpassed SSG with SSB", it says that SSB is a form beyond SSG. The regular form with SSG powers is slightly weaker than SSG, and even if Goku has surpassed his SSG self from BoG, if he was to transform into a SSG, he would become slightly stronger than his regular form.

[supercat]

What problems does Base Goku and Base Vegeta going forward as Saiyan Beyond God level really create? Can't the U6 fighters just be that strong? It's natural progression.

I really don't get the impression that there's two Base forms. That seems to unnecessarily complicate things.

As always, very well said. The two bases nonsense is by far the most ridiculous speculation I've personally encountered.

This is a series tailored for a younger demographic, what would be the benefit of discreetly convoluting it? Not only that, the show has a track record of exaggerated progression.

I adhere to the following:

Final Form Frost > Piccolo > Assault Form Frost > Base Saiyans > Buuhan / First Form Frost / First Form Frieza >>> all other forms of Buu

You guys really need to reexamine your reasoning. Why would Goku be so excited about Buu joining the tourney when First From Frost would have beaten him like he's nothing? How did Piccolo become a god tier since RoF? Impossible.

That's why we need the two bases theory, lol. It's that simple. Why won't people just acknowledge that Goku and Vegeta aren't taking this tourney seriously (until Hit), so they don't need to tap into SSG yet?

Goten and Trunks could sense Goku's ki during his battle against Freeza while he was in his base form. Unless Goten and Trunks suddenly developed the ability to sense Godly ki off-screen, then Goku was not using Godly ki when he was fighting Final Form Freeza in the ROF arc, and by that virtue, wasn't utilising the power of the Super Saiyan God form in his base.

Like I've said many times, it's possible that Base Goku w/ godly ki has some SSG power mixed with his regular ki. Alternatively, he can compensate for the loss of SSG's godly ki with regular ki only.

Instead of telling other people to reexamine their reasoning, and using words like "we need" or "impossible" (an unlikely word in a series that has a history of technologically enabling two teenagers to possess planet-busting power), how about openly accepting the fact that each speculation thus far has had one or more things that could easily rebut against it. You seem to firmly stand behind the two bases theory despite there never being any official statements indicating its existence, yet you refuse to accept a potential power up that has not been mentioned.

Anyway, approaching this from an open-minded standpoint, I adhere to the following ranges:

Power Scale - low end of the spectrum

Base Goku / Final Form Frieza = SSJ3 Goku (Buu arc)
Piccolo = a couple notches above SSJ3 Goku (Buu arc)
Final Form Frost = somewhere between SSJ3 Goku and Super Buu, but closer to the former
Assault Form Frost = a couple notches above SSJ3 Goku (Buu arc) / hypothetically below Piccolo by a hair
SSJ Goku = SSJ3 Gotenks


Power Scale - higher end of the spectrum

Base Goku (RoF)/ Final Form Frieza = a few notches above SSJ Vegetto (Buu arc) / .8 (I have Buu arc SSJ Vegetto at .5)
Base Goku (Champa) = a few tiers higher than hypothetical SSJ2 Vegetto / 1.2
Piccolo = a notch or two above Base Goku (Champa), but notably stronger than SSJ2 Vegetto / 1.8
Final Form Frost = between Buu arc Vegetto's hypothetical SSJ2 and SSJ3 transformations, but leaning closer towards the latter / 2.5
Assault Form Frost = just a bit under Piccolo / 1.6
SSJ Goku = a notch below or at the same level as SSG Goku (BoG) / 5 - 6

I'm also quite content with a range that sort of falls in between these two power scales.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I agree with you that it is weird that Goku is gaining nothing. But I think this can be explained if we say that SSB is a relatively small boost.

What do you think the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier is?

I think the 6/10 is no longer viable. If anything, it should be 6/20 or more. It almost seems like Goku is is gaining nothing if that scale applies to the U6 tournament.

I'm fine with this, especially since the 70% wasn't in Super.
But we still need to resolve Vegeta's 10% of Beerus because it scales Beerus down.

Even if the scale was 6/20 or 6/30, Goku should still be able to technically pass it with SSJ3.

It would seem that way. I'm starting to wonder if he can even access it anymore. Transforming into a Super Saiyan is still considered a big power-up, so Super Saiyan 2 or 3 would presumably be the same. My guess is the multiplier of Super Saiyan Blue far outstrips those forms. It's the only way to make sense of it.

[Bullza]

Again, that's not what it says. It doesn't say "Goku & Vegeta surpassed SSG with SSB", it says that SSB is a form beyond SSG. The regular form with SSG powers is slightly weaker than SSG, and even if Goku has surpassed his SSG self from BoG, if he was to transform into a SSG, he would become slightly stronger than his regular form.

The anime says that " Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even the Super Saiyan God".

But according to that thing you keep bringing up from the game called Saiyan Beyond God he's surpassed it just as he is anyway.

He was slightly weaker when he was fighting Beerus but since then he's done months of intense training to get stronger so he shouldn't be any weaker at all and there's nothing to say outside of that one time in the movie only that he can just transform into SSJG.

This isn't even counting Super Saiyan which would have to certainly be stronger than SSJG.

So he's either about the same or stronger than SSJG in base and definitley stronger as a SSJ yet the anime specifically says he's surpassed even SSJG with SSJB and the manga also says SSJB is superior to SSJG rather than just say he's surpassed himself or got even stronger.

There's no need to bring SSJG up if they're already that strong anyway.

[Chiki]

What do you think the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier is?

x1.5 or less.

You seem to firmly stand behind the two bases theory despite there never being any official statements indicating its existence,

I find it funny for you to say this because no other theories have any "official statements" indicating their existence. All we know is that Base Goku is SSG level.

[Bullza]

x1.5 or less.

So it's weaker than SSJ2?