Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supercat]

What do you think the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier is?

x1.5 or less.

You seem to firmly stand behind the two bases theory despite there never being any official statements indicating its existence,

I find it funny for you to say this because no other theories have any "official statements" indicating their existence. All we know is that Base Goku is SSG level.

Wasn't I the one who pointed out how all speculations thus far have had one or more points that seemingly contradict them?

We seem to agree on the whole SSG = Base concept, so I guess it's just a matter of proving the existence of two bases.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The anime says that " Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even the Super Saiyan God".

But according to that thing you keep bringing up from the game called Saiyan Beyond God he's surpassed it just as he is anyway.

He was slightly weaker when he was fighting Beerus but since then he's done months of intense training to get stronger so he shouldn't be any weaker at all and there's nothing to say outside of that one time in the movie only that he can just transform into SSJG.

This isn't even counting Super Saiyan which would have to certainly be stronger than SSJG.

So he's either about the same or stronger than SSJG in base and definitley stronger as a SSJ yet the anime specifically says he's surpassed even SSJG with SSJB and the manga also says SSJB is superior to SSJG rather than just say he's surpassed himself or got even stronger.

There's no need to bring SSJG up if they're already that strong anyway.

Again, that's not what it says. Neither the anime nor the manga talk about Goku's or Vegeta's power, they are talking about Super Saiyan Blue being the next form after Super Saiyan God, like Super Saiyan 2 is the next form after Super Saiyan. Neither of these statements talk about Goku's or Vegeta's battle power, they are simply describing Super Saiyan Blue.

Also, if you count video-games again, Goku can freely turn into a SSG in DBZ: Dokkan Battle (during the story mode, not in-game), which promoted FnF by foreshadowing Super Saiyan Blue.

[Bullza]

Neither the anime nor the manga talk about Goku's or Vegeta's power, they are talking about Super Saiyan Blue being the next form after Super Saiyan God, like Super Saiyan 2 is the next form after Super Saiyan.

They are saying that SSJB surpassed SSJG, that Goku transformed into a SSJB which surpassed EVEN SSJG. They're not just saying it's the next one.

According to yourself and the form in that game, he had already done that BEFORE becoming a SSJB just in his normal state. Whis said he'd be stronger as a SSJ so he should be well above SSJG at that point.

Yet despite that the anime and manga still choose to say that the form surpasses SSJG. Not Saiyan Beyond God, not Super Saiyan but Super Saiyan God.

A completely unnecessary statement if he'd already done that well before SSJB was even introduced.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Whatever, interpret the line however you want to. I'm done repeating myself.

[Bullza]

There's not many ways of interpreting it. Both the anime and manga say SSJB is a form that surpasses SSJG, not that it is the next form. If Goku was supposed to have absorbed that power to make himself as strong and then later stronger than SSJG then stating that SSJB surpasses SSJG is redundant because he did already.

Anyway moving on there's possibly another thing that kills the two base theory.

Hit was about on par with Base Goku. If Base Goku was a 6 then Hit should be around a 6. Vegeta said that Hit had lowered his power as far as he can.

In the next episode he likely powers up to his maximum. He might be about an 8 or 9 at most.

So between his absolute minimum where he suppressed his Ki as much as it can go to his absolute maximum where he's giving it everything he's got, he doesn't even get half as strong again?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

x1.5 or less.

Damn, that's a shitty transformation.

[Marlowe89]

I'm with Bullza on this one - Goku and Vegeta's training in Super made it pretty clear that their base forms aren't exactly tapping into much god ki/power unless their fists are enveloped in that blue aura, which is why they acted so surprised when they finally managed to bring it out momentarily.

I don't think either Goku or Vegeta approach SSG's strength until they transform into SSB, which happens to be somewhat stronger than SSG because it's effectively a combination of SSG's power and SS. I still believe that they use SSB as a way of tapping into that power though.

[Chiki]

x1.5 or less.

Damn, that's a shitty transformation.

That's gotta be true no matter what view you take actually that doesn't involve retcons. Since Base Goku is around SSG which is a 6, and Beerus is a 10, and SSB Goku is weaker than Beerus. There's just no way around it.

I think there is evidence in favor of it though: just look at how well Base Goku does against Hit. The power difference does seem relatively small.

Goku and Vegeta's training in Super made it pretty clear that their base forms aren't exactly tapping into much god ki/power unless their fists are enveloped in that blue aura, which is why they acted so surprised when they finally managed to bring it out momentarily.

Uh.. no it didn't. They were tapping into SSB power, hence it being blue, but not the SSG power that they already have.

[Draconic]

Then Goku is a 9 on the scale, which is impossible.

[Marlowe89]

Uh.. no it didn't. They were tapping into SSB power, hence it being blue, but not the SSG power that they already have.

They do have a fraction of it, but there's no such thing as "SSB power" and in fact it's repeatedly made clear that SSB uses SSG's power which is God ki. I don't think it's any different than the blue energy that surrounded Goku in BOG during his transformation. IMO, the point of the scene was to foreshadow SSB by showing that Goku and Vegeta were tapping into higher concentrations of it.

That's not even mentioning the countless other indications in the current arc that would imply base Goku and his SS form aren't really god tier, unlike SSB which most certainly is.

[Bullza]

So he's a fun little tidbit that I don't think anyone has brought up.

Remember this?



When Goku was casually walking around watering the plants? Well it works out when full it could hold about 4,100 tons of water. The empty can would weigh a tremendous amount as well.

Well later on when Whis conjures up those training suits for Goku and Vegeta they can barely move so the suits obviously weigh a lot more than the watering can, possibly several times as much.

Yet in one of the episodes they do 50,000 full body push ups in those suits on just one thumb.

They could essentially be lifting the weight of a cruise ship dozens of thousands of times on the strenght of a single thumb.

[ssbgoku]

Hi guys, I guess I finally may found missing puzzle of base goku level in all dbs sagas making sense. I mean is it not strange that base goku was so strong back then and now he would get much more weaker ?.

But what if Saiyan beyond god was just temporary state seerving only it purpouse to reach ssb getting divine ki back. It was just like:

Bog arc:

Base goku final burst of ssj< ssj goku =<ssg goku

Whis training arc:

Base goku (before whis comments) - 0.05

Ssj goku - 1.033

Saiyan beyond god goku/vegeta (after whis command them to focus). - 6.2

Rof arc:

Base goku - super buu
Ssj goku ?(probably above buuhan below asj vegito
Ssb - 7

Champa arc:

Base - super buu
Ssj - 2 in god scale
Ssb - 8

Just consider hit being heavily supressed and doesbt give fuck. Everything else could make sense. Piccolo would be close to calm Mr buu level. Whis commenting on base goku and vegeta improved a lot but being tree in compare to beerus make sense then.

Dbs all in order:

Whis/vados -15
Beerus - 10
Champa -9.8
Ssb - 8.2
Hit against vegeta - 7.8
Golden frieza - 7.5
Saiyan beyond god(bog-rof) - 6.5
Ssg goku - 6
Ssj goku/vegeta - 2
10% beerus - 1
Bog arc sdg vegito - 0.7
Enraged ssj2 vegeta - 0.2
Fp Magenta - 0.1
SSj cabba - 0.09
Final form frost - 0.08
Base goku/vegeta - 0.05
Heavily supressed hit - 0.04
Bog ssj3 goku /base cabba- 0.03
Third form frost - 0.02
Heavily supressed frost - 0.01
Mr buu- 0.008
Picoolo - 0.006
Botamo/ first form frost - 0.005

What do you think guys ?

[apex_pretador]

So he's a fun little tidbit that I don't think anyone has brought up.

Remember this?



When Goku was casually walking around watering the plants? Well it works out when full it could hold about 4,100 tons of water. The empty can would weigh a tremendous amount as well.

Well later on when Whis conjures up those training suits for Goku and Vegeta they can barely move so the suits obviously weigh a lot more than the watering can, possibly several times as much.

Yet in one of the episodes they do 50,000 full body push ups in those suits on just one thumb.

They could essentially be lifting the weight of a cruise ship dozens of thousands of times on the strenght of a single thumb.

Image:

404 Not Found

[Chiki]

Uh.. no it didn't. They were tapping into SSB power, hence it being blue, but not the SSG power that they already have.

They do have a fraction of it, but there's no such thing as "SSB power" and in fact it's repeatedly made clear that SSB uses SSG's power which is God ki. I don't think it's any different than the blue energy that surrounded Goku in BOG during his transformation. IMO, the point of the scene was to foreshadow SSB by showing that Goku and Vegeta were tapping into higher concentrations of it.

That's not even mentioning the countless other indications in the current arc that would imply base Goku and his SS form aren't really god tier, unlike SSB which most certainly is.

Sorry, but your interpretation is just different from the official one. Episode 25 explicitly says that SSB is a form stronger than SSG. Toriyama has stated that Goku can access SSG at any time after BoG and RoF shows SSG Goku behind Base Goku as he fights Whis.

Then Goku is a 9 on the scale, which is impossible.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

[ssbgoku]

I see everyone just decided to ignore my long post, such short span attention lol. Well I can not blame you xd. I have too. Keeping my explanation short.

- Saiyan beyond god was deal only after ssg and before ssb(in vegeta case after whis training him)
- both goku and vegeta improved a lot
- ssj is still great boost over base

Thoughts?

[buutenks]

Hi guys, I guess I finally may found missing puzzle of base goku level in all dbs sagas making sense. I mean is it not strange that base goku was so strong back then and now he would get much more weaker ?.

But what if Saiyan beyond god was just temporary state seerving only it purpouse to reach ssb getting divine ki back. It was just like:

Bog arc:

Base goku final burst of ssj< ssj goku =<ssg goku

Whis training arc:

Base goku (before whis comments) - 0.05

Ssj goku - 1.033

Saiyan beyond god goku/vegeta (after whis command them to focus). - 6.2

Rof arc:

Base goku - super buu
Ssj goku ?(probably above buuhan below asj vegito
Ssb - 7

Champa arc:

Base - super buu
Ssj - 2 in god scale
Ssb - 8

Just consider hit being heavily supressed and doesbt give fuck. Everything else could make sense. Piccolo would be close to calm Mr buu level. Whis commenting on base goku and vegeta improved a lot but being tree in compare to beerus make sense then.

Dbs all in order:

Whis/vados -15
Beerus - 10
Champa -9.8
Ssb - 8.2
Hit against vegeta - 7.8
Golden frieza - 7.5
Saiyan beyond god(bog-rof) - 6.5
Ssg goku - 6
Ssj goku/vegeta - 2
10% beerus - 1
Bog arc sdg vegito - 0.7
Enraged ssj2 vegeta - 0.2
Fp Magenta - 0.1
SSj cabba - 0.09
Final form frost - 0.08
Base goku/vegeta - 0.05
Heavily supressed hit - 0.04
Bog ssj3 goku /base cabba- 0.03
Third form frost - 0.02
Heavily supressed frost - 0.01
Mr buu- 0.008
Picoolo - 0.006
Botamo/ first form frost - 0.005

What do you think guys ?

I agree with this.

i see no reason to place base goku as strong as his ssg self vs beerus.

[TheMikado]

^ fine with this as well except for this appears to retcon the mulitplier and beginning of Super with SSJ Goku fighting Beerus and Vegeta seeming to draw close to 10%of Beerus power.

But again we have to make an assumption that wasn't stated and even then it still doesn't work perfectly.
Saying that it is temporary is just as plausible as saying Goku can turn on and of his God Ki in any form including base. Especially when nothing weve been told states either.

[ssbgoku]

Hi guys, I guess I finally may found missing puzzle of base goku level in all dbs sagas making sense. I mean is it not strange that base goku was so strong back then and now he would get much more weaker ?.

But what if Saiyan beyond god was just temporary state seerving only it purpouse to reach ssb getting divine ki back. It was just like:

Bog arc:

Base goku final burst of ssj< ssj goku =<ssg goku

Whis training arc:

Base goku (before whis comments) - 0.05

Ssj goku - 1.033

Saiyan beyond god goku/vegeta (after whis command them to focus). - 6.2

Rof arc:

Base goku - super buu
Ssj goku ?(probably above buuhan below asj vegito
Ssb - 7

Champa arc:

Base - super buu
Ssj - 2 in god scale
Ssb - 8

Just consider hit being heavily supressed and doesbt give fuck. Everything else could make sense. Piccolo would be close to calm Mr buu level. Whis commenting on base goku and vegeta improved a lot but being tree in compare to beerus make sense then.

Dbs all in order:

Whis/vados -15
Beerus - 10
Champa -9.8
Ssb - 8.2
Hit against vegeta - 7.8
Golden frieza - 7.5
Saiyan beyond god(bog-rof) - 6.5
Ssg goku - 6
Ssj goku/vegeta - 2
10% beerus - 1
Bog arc sdg vegito - 0.7
Enraged ssj2 vegeta - 0.2
Fp Magenta - 0.1
SSj cabba - 0.09
Final form frost - 0.08
Base goku/vegeta - 0.05
Heavily supressed hit - 0.04
Bog ssj3 goku /base cabba- 0.03
Third form frost - 0.02
Heavily supressed frost - 0.01
Mr buu- 0.008
Picoolo - 0.006
Botamo/ first form frost - 0.005

What do you think guys ?

I agree with this.

i see no reason to place base goku as strong as his ssg self vs beerus.

Thank you so much ! . I really believe it would make sense.

^ fine with this as well except for this appears to retcon the mulitplier and beginning of Super with SSJ Goku fighting Beerus and Vegeta seeming to draw close to 10%of Beerus power.

But again we have to make an assumption that wasn't stated and even then it still doesn't work perfectly.
Saying that it is temporary is just as plausible as saying Goku can turn on and of his God Ki in any form including base. Especially when nothing weve been told states either.

Well numbers for ssj or base are just made up by me, but I just wanted to show that ssj would be great boost over base still while being far from ssb. SSJ Goku fighting Beerus was just under adrenaline and anger while still preserving most if not all ssg power which was keeping fading away from him.

Enraged vegeta pushing a bit beerus until he reached 10% of his power is fine, because vegeta was at least 3 times weaker then 10% beerus this 0.3 and at least 0.2.

Well but wasn't it only deal while they needed to tap into god power by themselves. It just makes sense to go this route and while there is not much hints for this , there is almost nothing which go against that. It is also simple and clear in compare to two base theory or even base goku retconn.

[Bullza]

404 Not Found

Oops, how about now?

[Marlowe89]

Sorry, but your interpretation is just different from the official one. Episode 25 explicitly says that SSB is a form stronger than SSG.

When did I imply otherwise? I just said that the blue aura probably represents God ki and that Goku and Vegeta were learning to tap into more of its power than just the fractions they already possessed. There's little to no evidence that base Goku/Vegeta are as strong as SSG.

Obviously SSB is a little stronger than SSG because it's a combination of SS and SSG's full power, I'm not denying that at all.

Toriyama has stated that Goku can access SSG at any time after BoG

He just said that Goku is able to access SSG's power, which is true. There was no specification towards power amount or being as strong as SSG in base in that statement.

RoF shows SSG Goku behind Base Goku as he fights Whis.

You're talking about that one panel from the RoF manga, which (for all we know) symbolizes that Goku was momentarily tapping into some unspecified amount of SSG's power. This doesn't actually mean that Goku can freely access SSG's full power in base at all times, nor does it confirm the "two bases" theory which is frankly convoluted and silly if you ask me.