The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Piccolo Daimao]

Don't you think Vegeta wouldn't be so tough on Gohan if that would be the case? Vegeta is disgusted and considers Gohan pathetic. That hardly sounds like someone who actually got stronger. I mean, Gohan just wasn't angry enough, what the heck dude. Lol. Unless Vegeta doesn't know about the rage boost? Which would change the meaning of him bringing it up I guess ...

I don't know whether or not you're replying to me or Saiga, but anyway...

Vegeta definitely knows about the rage boost. He's seen him get power from rage before, like when his scouter beeped after Gohan raged over Piccolo's death and fired a Masenko of 2,800 BP at Nappa, or when he attacked Freeza twice and did at least a little damage. He was clearly way stronger than before in those instances. Also, out-of-universe, we, the audience, know that Gohan can get power from rage and pretty much all the main characters are aware of that. Vegeta wouldn't miraculously be the exception when he's been around these guys for the best part of 11 years.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”

But then, as aforementioned, Gohan now can't gain power from rage.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

It's not even that he's supposedly not angry enough, since he'd have more than enough reason to be pissed at a guy who turned his two closest friends to stone and the only way of turning them back is by killing him, and that they're basically stealing his father's one day in the living world with him. Gohan explicitly says that his rage isn't "like it was back then", referring to when he was a child and, most importantly, when he exploded with rage at the Cell Games and killed Cell with that awakened power.

I feel like I'm repeating myself, but basically, Gohan can't draw out his true power from rage anymore because he slacked off in his training to keep it up.

[Mjb1985]

So you have to train to be able to become enraged? Doesn't that not make sense?

So Vegeta is essentially disgusted with Gohan for not training to get mad ?

[dbzfan7]

So you have to train to be able to become enraged? Doesn't that not make sense?

So Vegeta is essentially disgusted with Gohan for not training to get mad ?

More like Gohan didn't train to harness his anger and rage. He was angry, but it didn't feel like how it was several years ago. The situation wasn't nearly as bad at the time.

[Mjb1985]

I don't think you can train something so unpredictable. Like you said yourself, the situation wasn't as bad, which is why he wasn't able to get angry enough. Gohan not being angry enough has nothing to do with training. It's just Gohan not being angry enough as stated.

[Piccolo Daimao]

If he is, wouldn't he know what would happen if Gohan went into a frenzy?

If Gohan's slacked off in his training for 7 years and actually decreased in power as a result (which was a surprise to both him and Gokuu), then yeah, he can't be sure.

So you have to train to be able to become enraged? Doesn't that not make sense?

So Vegeta is essentially disgusted with Gohan for not training to get mad ?

No, Vegeta's disgusted with Gohan for not keeping up with his training regime and getting sloppy just because it's in times of peace. He's also disappointed at the fact that he's actually decreased in power, and just how much, to the point that he's locked in a stalemate with a guy who he should be able to wreck if he'd continued training.

You see, Gohan's a special case. He's pretty much the only character in the series that can draw out his dormant power through rage, even aside from in transformations, and has the most dormant power of the crew (at least until, possibly, Goten and Trunks come onto the scene, but they're not old or strong enough yet to make a difference anyhow). In my opinion, he basically needs to keep up his training regime to harness that anger and special power, sustain that unique ability. Back in the Saiyan arc, he had absolutely no control over his strength. He went from 1, presumably the normal BP for an Earthling child, to 1,307 in one uncontrollable burst of emotion. And, as time went on and he trained because he had to, more of that power peaked out, then he got the Great Elder's power-up, then he got Super Saiyan...and then some of that hard work was lost when he dropped his training regime and rested on his laurels.

This theory does have support from the source material. Apart from golden-boy Gohan, do we actually have any other case, apart from Kame-sennin due to his old age, of a character have a literal descent in strength because he simply stopped training?

[Mjb1985]

If Gohan's slacked off in his training for 7 years and actually decreased in power as a result (which was a surprise to both him and Gokuu), then yeah, he can't be sure.

But I thought you said Kid Gohan = Teen Gohan?

[dbzfan7]

If Gohan's slacked off in his training for 7 years and actually decreased in power as a result (which was a surprise to both him and Gokuu), then yeah, he can't be sure.

No, Vegeta's disgusted with Gohan for not keeping up with his training regime and getting sloppy just because it's in times of peace. He's also disappointed at the fact that he's actually decreased in power, and just how much, to the point that he's locked in a stalemate with a guy who he should be able to wreck if he'd continued training.

You see, Gohan's a special case. He's pretty much the only character in the series that can draw out his dormant power through rage, even aside from in transformations, and has the most dormant power of the crew (at least until, possibly, Goten and Trunks come onto the scene, but they're not old or strong enough yet to make a difference anyhow). In my opinion, he basically needs to keep up his training regime to harness that anger and special power, sustain that unique ability. Back in the Saiyan arc, he had absolutely no control over his strength. He went from 1, presumably the normal BP for an Earthling child, to 1,307 in one uncontrollable burst of emotion. And, as time went on and he trained because he had to, more of that power peaked out, then he got the Great Elder's power-up, then he got Super Saiyan...and then some of that hard work was lost when he dropped his training regime and rested on his laurels.

This theory does have support from the source material. Apart from golden-boy Gohan, do we actually have any other case, apart from Kame-sennin due to his old age, of a character have a literal descent in strength because he simply stopped training?

What he said lol.

But I thought you said Kid Gohan = Teen Gohan?

Power wise. but technique wise Kid Gohan has the edge.

[Mjb1985]

Ok, so like I said before, if you feel Kid Gohan = Teen Gohan, Vegeta being angry with Gohan for not training his ability to be enraged seems a bit far fetched. Becoming enraged doesn't seem like something you can train for IMO. You can't sit at home, and say ok, I am going to practice becoming a super angry for no apparent reason.

Anger is an emotion, and emotional variances are going to be subject to the circumstances.

So basically my point is, Vegeta and Goku have no reason to be angry at Gohan considering the situation doesn't warrant extreme rage like last time. Unless of course, Gohan actually lost power. Which I feel is implied. But what PD seems to be saying is that Goku/Vegeta are mad that Gohan didn't train enough to allow himself to become angry enough to release his true power. Which doesn't make sense to me considering Gohan hasn't lost any power, and even though he might not be as sharp, he is just as strong, if not stronger than before. It's just him not getting angry enough to release all his power.

The issue should be then, the circumstance not being grave enough to warrant Gohan's full enraged abilities, not that Gohan is a lazy bastard.



And PD, they were always trying to train Gohan to bring out his hidden power, not try to control his outbursts. They knew Gohan had tons of hidden power via outbursts, so they wanted to bring that out naturally. They never attempted to stop Gohan from being angry or force him to try to control something like that. Hence why it is a frenzy, and not a controlled rage...

[dbzfan7]

Ok, so like I said before, if you feel Kid Gohan = Teen Gohan, Vegeta being angry with Gohan for not training his ability to be enraged seems a bit far fetched. Becoming enraged doesn't seem like something you can train for IMO. You can't sit at home, and say ok, I am going to practice becoming a super angry for no apparent reason.

Anger is an emotion, and emotional variances are going to be subject to the circumstances.

So basically my point is, Vegeta and Goku have no reason to be angry at Gohan considering the situation doesn't warrant extreme rage like last time. Unless of course, Gohan actually lost power. Which I feel is implied. But what PD seems to be saying is that Goku/Vegeta are mad that Gohan didn't train enough to allow himself to become angry enough to release his true power. Which doesn't make sense to me considering Gohan hasn't lost any power, and even though he might not be as sharp, he is just as strong, if not stronger than before. It's just him not getting angry enough to release all his power.

The issue should be then, the circumstance not being grave enough to warrant Gohan's full enraged abilities, not that Gohan is a lazy bastard.



And PD, they were always trying to train Gohan to bring out his hidden power, not try to control his outbursts. They knew Gohan had tons of hidden power via outbursts, so they wanted to bring that out naturally. They never attempted to stop Gohan from being angry or force him to try to control something like that. Hence why it is a frenzy, and not a controlled rage...

Anger is what brings out his hidden strength. Hell training to gain Super Saiyan was basically learning to get angry and rage filled. Thats how SSJ was achieved. For Gohan its harder because it goes against who he is. He doesn't like getting mad or fighting. Problem is Gohan has to get into a frenzy like Vegeta said. Rage is what brings out his hidden powers. The Elder Kaioshin however unlocked all of his hidden power so he wouldn't have to rely on rage.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

[Piccolo Daimao]

If Gohan's slacked off in his training for 7 years and actually decreased in power as a result (which was a surprise to both him and Gokuu), then yeah, he can't be sure.

But I thought you said Kid Gohan = Teen Gohan?

I admit it's a little confusing, but there's a difference in power between normal Gohan and enraged Gohan. Teen Gohan's as strong as a non-enraged kid Gohan. Gohan was enraged when he killed Cell.

[Son_Gohan]

Gohan was shown capable of drawing out that power before even training a day in his life.

Lack of training should evidently have no effect on it.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Gohan was shown capable of drawing out that power before even training a day in his life.

Lack of training should evidently have no effect on it.

Well, I guess I was talking about effective control then.

Then why couldn't he gain power from rage after those 7 years of no training? It must've had at least some effect, otherwise Gohan wouldn't mention that he was angry "but not like it was back then".

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

If only he could've become as angry as he was a few hrs ago. That would've solved a lot.

But anyway, I think the lack of training not only had an effect on his overall fighting ability, but possibly on his emotions as well. Since he wasn't fighting or being subjected to situations that would otherwise push him over the edge, he probably just changed and no longer had it in him to have an emotional outburst. It's also possible that he couldn't grow angry like he did as a kid because of maturity as well, but eh, I wouldn't use that in a debate.

[Son_Gohan]

Well, I guess I was talking about effective control then.

Then why couldn't he gain power from rage after those 7 years of no training? It must've had at least some effect, otherwise Gohan wouldn't mention that he was angry "but not like it was back then".

Even back then Gohan didn't have control of it. He states this against Cell:



For him to be able to control it on his own accord contradicts the essence of him losing his frame of mind.

The issue of him being unable to awaken that power anymore would have to be due to his own emotional development as a teenager. He no longer had those same ethics he once stood for, so if he tried to trigger those emotions to the same effect that he did as a child, he naturally wouldn't be affected the same way since he is a different person now.

[Mjb1985]

Agreed SG. And yea , it's too bad he didn't get angry like he did a few hours ago Turlast. That would have saved a ton of trouble lol.

[In Brightest Day]

I posted this a while ago but it was right in the middle of a heated debate, so it didn't get many responses. This is kind of a second attempt, I guess.


- Perfect Cell vs. Vegeta
- Perfect Cell vs. Trunks
- Perfect Cell vs. Piccolo.

So, these aren't standard fights in that we already know who would win. What I am interested in though, is if Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo all individually took on Cell at the Cell-Games, to what extent would they be defeated? Would each of them be completely destroyed, or would they at least be able to put up somewhat of a fight?

Cell is using the same amount of power he used against Goku in each of these individual fights, not his full power he showed against Gohan.

[Mjb1985]

Considering that Trunks still wanted to wait until Goku took the sensu , even though Cell was weakened , speaks volumes IMO...

Goku is way ahead of Vegeta , Trunks , and Piccolo. And Cell above even that.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

All three of them would receive a soundly defeat. None of them would be able to put up a fight against Cell. Like Mjb mentioned, Goku's way stronger than all of them, and even Vegeta admits that while Goku is out of his league, Cell's also two steps ahead of Goku.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta could possibly maybe get in one good hit, but that is the absolute most I could grant. Trunks and Piccolo would get stomped hard.

[mysticboy]

Vegeta at ASSJ would land a few good hits at least.