We'd have to assume now that when Vegeta used 10% against Beerus he was really over compensating.
That makes no sense either. That's not how people work in real life or in fiction. For example, no one would try to buy a 25 cent candy with a 100 dollar bill. That makes no sense.
Birusu16 wrote:Herms made the perfect statement a few minutes ago:
Guys, I wouldn't get too hung up on Toriyama's old 6/10/15 comment. I doubt anyone making Super has that in mind right now.
I don't think the writers of Super have anything in their mind right now.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Bullza wrote:Oh and apparently Hit wasn't at full power.
Seriously!?!
Oh, Goku is so losing that match.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Bullza wrote:Well it's that the movie confirmed the comment is what makes it more difficult to just ignore because they said he was at 70% in the movie and 7>6.
But you know this is a different version and maybe they're just going a different route altogether.
Super Beerus >>>>>>>>> Movie Beerus
It'd be kinda like how the old movies made SSJ3 Goku stronger than Mystic Gohan even though in the series it wasn't that way at all.
Oh and apparently Hit wasn't at full power.
I'm not saying the 6/10/15 comment is right anymore, I'm just saying that the power levels make no sense. If you had a 1 dollar bill, 5 dollar bill, 10 dollar bill and a 100 dollar bill, how would you buy the 25 cent candy? You're basically saying that Beerus used the 100 dollar bill and complimented Vegeta for forcing him to use the 100 dollar bill. That makes no sense, that's just not how people work.
Really, it's time to give up and close down this thread or something lol. This is ridiculous and the only way the power levels make sense is if SSG Goku = SS2 Vegeta at this point.
That makes no sense either. That's not how people work in real life or in fiction. For example, no one would try to buy a 25 cent candy with a 100 dollar bill. That makes no sense.
Well actually if you think about it, it has happened before. Frieza was as strong or at least equal to Goku when fighting on Namek. Then he goes and powers up to 50% even though as little as 5% would put his power level at 6 million and twice as strong as Goku.
So he powered up vastly more than he needed to. I suppose like Beerus.
Seriously!?!
According to Herms he will finally use his real full power, for real this time.
Chiki wrote:I'm just saying that the power levels make no sense.
Pretty much par for the course since 1992.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
That makes no sense either. That's not how people work in real life or in fiction. For example, no one would try to buy a 25 cent candy with a 100 dollar bill. That makes no sense.
Well actually if you think about it, it has happened before. Frieza was as strong or at least equal to Goku when fighting on Namek. Then he goes and powers up to 50% even though as little as 5% would put his power level at 6 million and twice as strong as Goku.
So he powered up vastly more than he needed to. I suppose like Beerus.
Seriously!?!
According to Herms he will finally use his real full power, for real this time.
I would have agreed with you if Beerus didn't say the 10% comment.
Pretty much par for the course since 1992.
I don't agree. I rewatched Kai a few years ago and the power levels in Kai make perfect sense to me, the main problem is the ridiculous Zenkai boosts in the Frieza arc which are hard to believe, but they aren't really logically contradictory or anything.
10% Beerus is logically contradictory and just wtf? Like I said, Beerus used 10% of his power against SS2 Vegeta, and SSG Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SS2 Angry Vegeta, so the gap between SSG Goku and 100% Beerus cannot be THAT great.
Todd Blankenship @Herms98 8m8 minutes ago
Beerus does seem uneasy at the prospect of Goku using the technique against him, but denies it when Whis teases him about it.
Maybe there's some hope of it making sense? Nah, probably not.
Chiki wrote:I don't agree. I rewatched Kai a few years ago and the power levels in Kai make perfect sense to me, the main problem is the ridiculous Zenkai boosts in the Frieza arc which are hard to believe, but they aren't really logically contradictory or anything.
All consistency in power levels was thrown out the window once Android 16, 17 and 18 debuted. Then it turned into a total mess from the Cell Games and beyond.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Chiki wrote:I don't agree. I rewatched Kai a few years ago and the power levels in Kai make perfect sense to me, the main problem is the ridiculous Zenkai boosts in the Frieza arc which are hard to believe, but they aren't really logically contradictory or anything.
All consistency in power levels was thrown out the window once Android 16, 17 and 18 debuted. Then it turned into a total mess from the Cell Games and beyond.
I would have agreed with you if Beerus didn't say the 10% comment.
How's it different from Frieza's comment about using 50%? From the looks of it neither needed to use nearly that much power to be able to win.
Now that the gap between Goku and Beerus is completely different does that mean Super Saiyan God has been greatly nerfed in Super or Beerus has been greatly boosted? I'd say perhaps the latter because he shouldn't have been a threat to the universe if he were too close to DBZ levels.
Perhaps Base Goku does equal SSJG Goku afterall.
SSJG Goku - 6
SSJB Goku - 300
SSJB Kaioken x 10 Goku - 3,000
I would have agreed with you if Beerus didn't say the 10% comment.
How's it different from Frieza's comment about using 50%? From the looks of it neither needed to use nearly that much power to be able to win.
Now that the gap between Goku and Beerus is completely different does that mean Super Saiyan God has been greatly nerfed in Super or Beerus has been greatly boosted? I'd say perhaps the latter because he shouldn't have been a threat to the universe if he were too close to DBZ levels.
Perhaps Base Goku does equal SSJG Goku afterall.
SSJG Goku - 6
SSJB Goku - 300
SSJB Kaioken x 10 Goku - 3,000
Frieza needed 50% to avoid getting murdered by Kaioken x10, duh.
He hadn't used Kaioken x10 by then had he? If he had then his power level would have been 30 million and he should have slaughtered Frieza. Goku was at 3 million and Frieza was probably no more than 4 million.
Bullza wrote:He hadn't used Kaioken x10 by then had he? If he had then his power level would have been 30 million and he should have slaughtered Frieza. Goku was at 3 million and Frieza was probably no more than 4 million.
Either way it's overkill on both sides.
He was using Kaioken x10 vs. 50% Frieza. In my rewatch Tien said he was using Kaioken x10 the whole time while fighting 50% Frieza.
I also don't even see the point of special abilities like the one Hit has if it can by bypassed by simply being stronger. I mean how does more power let you move freely during a time stop? It's just silly, but then again that's DB.
So
SSB X 10 Kaioken is somehow probably still weaker than Beerus when Goku and Vegeta teaming up could probably take out Beerus according to Whis.
Now suddenly as SSB give better Ki control to where you can do Kaioken yet we were told it drains stamina really badly. Also does Vegeta know about this or not?
Whatever this doesn't even seem consistent between episodes as far as power levels.
Goku literally fought this guy in his weakest form then X times his max form and still doesn't look like it's enough. Also Goku can travels at speeds faster than time?
Bullza wrote:He hadn't used Kaioken x10 by then had he? If he had then his power level would have been 30 million and he should have slaughtered Frieza. Goku was at 3 million and Frieza was probably no more than 4 million.
Either way it's overkill on both sides.
He was using Kaioken x10 vs. 50% Frieza. In my rewatch Tien said he was using Kaioken x10 the whole time while fighting 50% Frieza.
Kaioken x10 is 30 million, 50% Frieza is 60 million.
I just checked the manga to be sure. Goku was at 3 million and Frieza is stronger than him enough to brag about not using his arms but not strong enough that he starts losing afterward.
He says he knows Goku is hiding power but Taking that into consideration he could beat him with 50%.
Frieza starts beating on Goku, Tien says he can Kaioken and King Kai said he's already using it.
So presumably Goku started using Kaioken x10 after Frieza used 50% but it's not exactly like the Beerus comment because he said he was taking his hidden power into consideration.
TheMikado wrote:So
SSB X 10 Kaioken is somehow probably still weaker than Beerus when Goku and Vegeta teaming up could probably take out Beerus according to Whis.
Now suddenly as SSB give better Ki control to where you can do Kaioken yet we were told it drains stamina really badly. Also does Vegeta know about this or not?
Whatever this doesn't even seem consistent between episodes as far as power levels.
I don't get how a form that's terrible for stamina somehow has better ki control than a form that was mastered to have barely any strain at all. When did Goku have any ki control problems with SSJ? Also yeah the whole Whis thing now makes even less sense.
I'm glad they at least tried to explain something, which is a hell of a lot better than nothing, but damn I don't buy the reason. Participation ribbon for at least trying, but I don't buy the explanation yet.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
