Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Kamiccolo:
Rou Kaioshin doesn't do him any favours. I can't remember it being stated that the power-up would have been any quicker if he remained calm, but he does stop Gohan from talking, Goku does once too. I guess it's okay for his mind to wander, but then again Goku tells Gohan to focus and forget everything so he'll be ready to fight. Not like Goku knows anything about the power-up though.
Saiyan Prince Vegeta wrote:@Kamiccolo
Rou Kaioshin doesn't do him any favours. I can't remember it being stated that the power-up would have been any quicker if he remained calm, but he does stop Gohan from talking, Goku does once too. I guess it's okay for his mind to wander, but then again Goku tells Gohan to focus and forget everything so he'll be ready to fight. Not like Goku knows anything about the power-up though.
That does leave it kinda vague. I personally just choose to believe that Gohan's listening to Goku and focusing on the ritual. I seem to recall him not telling Gohan anything about the fight in order to keep him from getting distracted.
Yea we see a lot of clunky ki sensing things in the Buu Saga. Buu's ki , which is like a lie , is certainly a factor. Toriyama having more free reign for the Buu Saga is another one. It's too bad his editor didn't reign him in a little like the rest of the series , we perhaps could have had a bit more of an easier story to read.
Mjb1985 wrote:Yea we see a lot of clunky ki sensing things in the Buu Saga. Buu's ki , which is like a lie , is certainly a factor. Toriyama having more free reign for the Buu Saga is another one. It's too bad his editor didn't reign him in a little like the rest of the series , we perhaps could have had a bit more of an easier story to read.
True, but the vagueness allows for a lot more debate and discussion as well. I think creating and refining these fan theories is pretty fun, and if everything was spelled out for us, we wouldn't really have an oppurtunity to do that.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Yes I would agree with that. The amount of time spent debating the Buu Saga far outweighs all of the other sagas combined just for that reason. That's a good point.
After Boo escapes the RoSaT he turns everybody into chocolate and eats them.
Goku: That dirty murderer
Gohan: What? What's going on dad?!
Goku: Forget it. Forget everything. Focus so you'll be ready to fight soon!
The Boo arc is so awkward!
Edit: I do love seeing how, and why people view things the way they do.
Last edited by Saiyan Prince Vegeta on Sun May 05, 2013 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mjb1985 wrote:Yes I would agree with that. The amount of time spent debating the Buu Saga far outweighs all of the other sagas combined just for that reason. That's a good point.
Too bad we can't have Toriyama spend one day (more like 10 minutes) answering questions to end it all. I can hope that day comes or is solved in the Choezenshuu 4 coming out (which will add Bog and special information and probably be copy paste of D7)
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Saiyan Prince Vegeta wrote:After Boo escapes the RoSaT he turns everybody into chocolate and eats them.
Goku: That dirty murderer
Gohan: What? What's going on dad?!
Goku: Forget it. Forget everything. Focus so you'll be ready to fight soon!
So Kibito's teleportation. Unlimited range. But I'm under the assumption Buu didn't teleport by finding the Saiyans ki. If he was just going to the planet he probably wouldn't be so on top of them when he arrived.
Mjb1985 wrote:So Kibito's teleportation. Unlimited range. But I'm under the assumption Buu didn't teleport by finding the Saiyans ki. If he was just going to the planet he probably wouldn't be so on top of them when he arrived.
Well, in the picture in the manga, it makes it look like he found something. We've seen in the series that characters often look around when they are trying to sense ki. Buu reacts to something he's either seen or sensed, and teleports right next to Goku and Vegeta. As you can't sense a planet, I take that to mean he sensed Goku and/or Vegeta, and, knowing where he needed to teleport to, he jumped there.
I agree with that. So Kibito's teleportation is just like Goku's except its just an improved version.
You don't need to sense someone's ki to get somewhere , but you can do it that way too. For instance Kibito teleported to Kaioshin's planet with ease because he knew where he was going.
If Goku had to IT in that situation , he wouldn't be able to.
I think the differences in technique shows greatly when Buu is about to blow up the planet. Goku struggling to concentrate , Kaioshin able to quickly and without hesitation get to where he wanted to get to.
Mjb1985 wrote:I agree with that. So Kibito's teleportation is just like Goku's except its just an improved version.
You don't need to sense someone's ki to get somewhere , but you can do it that way too. For instance Kibito teleported to Kaioshin's planet with ease because he knew where he was going.
If Goku had to IT in that situation , he wouldn't be able to.
I think the differences in technique shows greatly when Buu is about to blow up the planet. Goku struggling to concentrate , Kaioshin able to quickly and without hesitation get to where he wanted to get to.
I definitely think Boo sensed everybody, even though Goku and Vegeta were only regular SSJ, and he probably didn't know where to look either as he wasn't ever shown in the Kaioshin realm in the manga. Then again, Bibbidi may have been able to teleport, he did take Boo to earth once he sealed him away. A lot of things could have happened, again, because the manga is so vague.
Kaioshin has a much greater sensing ability than Goku (sometimes ) he noticed most of the earthlings were killed, and Goku didn't have a clue. He also knew that the Earth wasn't destroyed.
I wonder if Goku could learn Kaioshins teleportation.
Well if Goku can sense Namekians on New Namek , Buu sensing Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta should be quite easy.
I don't think whether Buu was on Kaioshin's planet or not previously is really a factor here, it looks pretty clear Buu sensed the Saiyans to get there.
What's interesting is that it's a possibility that Buu never went there before. I never even thought that before. I always assumed there battle took place there.
Saiyan Prince Vegeta wrote:I definitely think Boo sensed everybody, even though Goku and Vegeta were only regular SSJ, and he probably didn't know where to look either as he wasn't ever shown in the Kaioshin realm in the manga. Then again, Bibbidi may have been able to teleport, he did take Boo to earth once he sealed him away. A lot of things could have happened, again, because the manga is so vague.
Kaioshin has a much greater sensing ability than Goku (sometimes ) he noticed most of the earthlings were killed, and Goku didn't have a clue. He also knew that the Earth wasn't destroyed.
I wonder if Goku could learn Kaioshin teleportation.
I always attributed Kaioshin's knowledge to his job. I think it makes sense that he, as overseer of the universe, should know if something really bad is happening. He knew about Freeza, who blew up planets and commited genocide, and he knew about Buu, who wiped out races and blew up planets, but he didn't know about Cell, who, in the grand scheme of things, hadn't done anything as bad yet.
Well Cell was only around for a couple of weeks so I'm going to give Kaioshin a pass here. We know Kaio is able to view pretty much everything in the universe. Shouldn't Kaioshin be able to do that as well?
It might not be the same though , Kaio and Badibi both have the capability of allowing someone to talk to a whole planet , Kaioshin apparently does not. Interesting stuff.
Mjb1985 wrote:Well Cell was only around for a couple of weeks so I'm going to give Kaioshin a pass here. We know Kaio is able to view pretty much everything in the universe. Shouldn't Kaioshin be able to do that as well?
It might not be the same though , Kaio and Badibi both have the capability of allowing someone to talk to a whole planet , Kaioshin apparently does not. Interesting stuff.
Well, I don't think Kaio knew about Cell either until Goku told him when looking for New Namek. But yeah, his telepathic powers seem to be far above Kaioshin's. It's weird.
Mjb1985 wrote:Yea Kaio was just relaxing. But it's understandable I mean the Cell stuff literally was over and done with in a couple of weeks.
But Kaioshin. How does he know about Freeza and everyone else. Does he have magic god eyes? Even Kaio needs to use those antennas. So I don't know.
Kaioshin is really a mysterious guy.
Yeah, that's why I just go with Freeza being more of a universal threat due to him having blown up planets and stuff. Cell was much stronger, but while he was alive, he never really rose above being a local threat.
I can't remember it being stated that the power-up would have been any quicker if he remained calm, but he does stop Gohan from talking, Goku does once too. I guess it's okay for his mind to wander, but then again Goku tells Gohan to focus and forget everything so he'll be ready to fight. Not like Goku knows anything about the power-up though. 
