Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Incorrect.

Chapter: 429 (DBZ 235), P2.2, P2.5, P4.1
Context: as Vegeta and (regular) Trunks train in the gravity room
Vegeta: “Don’t overdo it, Trunks. You’d better leave the room. This 150-fold gravity is too much for you.”

What does this have to do with anything? West City is destroyed, and Goten & Trunks are training with Piccolo at Kami's temple, not with Vegeta inside the Gravity room.

Nope, according to logic. He would need to increase somewhere around that amount to be stronger than a sick Goku Ssj in the Androids Arc and being able to one shot Android 20 Post.

Goku's sickness didn't just decrease his battle power, it also weakened his body and turned it to shit. Battle powers are not everything.

The point is that their bodies have room to make huge improvements with normal or gravity training.

But Piccolo wasn't expecting huge improvements from that one day.

[Darkprince410]

Since when can 1 day of training give a huge increase in power?

a) Goku his way to Namek
b) Piccolo becoming over 300x stronger in a few years, essentially doubling his power every few days.

Goku's training for Namek is skewed, because there were four near-death power-ups in there on top of the gravity training. As for Piccolo and 300x...huh? For starters, there's nothing implying that it was that huge of a jump during the three years to prepare for the jinzou-ningen, as all that's stated is that he's strong for not being a Super Saiya-jin. That doesn't actually mean he's at Ssj levels, just that for not being one, he's strong.

Besides, if Piccolo was essentially doubling his battle power every few days as you claim, he'd have been over 300x stronger within the span of a couple weeks. Even if he only doubled his battle power once every month, he'd still have reached over 300x as strong in under a year. Besides, you clearly don't see anywhere near that kind of jump later when Piccolo spent a year in the Room of Spirit and Time himself, which would have had the added benefit of the 10x gravity.

No matter how you look at it, a single day of training in normal Earth conditions is going to offer only paltry increases, and we've not seen any kind of evidence to support otherwise.

[h0kuten]

It shows that Piccolo can send the boys to endure gravity training and since Trunks ins't used to it, the boys will receive a huge power up. Piccolo only trained them to do the fusion properly, no training to increase their battle power was ever made, that wast next on Piccolo's plan.

Tienshinhan sensed Yardrat Goku and was astonished as the power of a sick Goku, meaning sick Goku is stronger than Yardrat Goku and Piccolo is stronger than that. Inferring huge improvements, again, with normal earth bound training.

Gravity training is effective until the body get's used to it, namely the muscles. Trunks clearly isn't used to it while training with his dad and is probably the reason Gotenks made such huge gains, because the body isn't used to it. It ultimately means Gotenks can be weaker than Fat Buu but can endure gravity training and surpass him.

[Darkprince410]

It shows that Piccolo can send the boys to endure gravity training and since Trunks ins't used to it, the boys will receive a huge power up. Piccolo only trained them to do the fusion properly, no training to increase their battle power was ever made, that wast next on Piccolo's plan.

Tenshinhan sensed Yardrat Goku and was astonished as the power of a sick Goku, meaning sick Goku is stronger than Yardrat Goku and Piccolo is stronger than that. Inferring huge improvements, again, with normal earth bound training.

Gravity training is effective until the body get's used to it, namely the muscles. Trunks clearly isn't used to it while training with his dad and is probably the reason Gotenks made such huge gains, because the body isn't used to it. It ultimately means Gotenks can be weaker than Fat Buu but can endure gravity training and surpass him.

1) There is no place for them to receive gravity training for that one day time frame. West City is destroyed, thus all sources outside of the Room of Spirit and Time are gone.

2) No one makes a statement on an inference that Piccolo was stronger than either post-Yardrat Goku or heart-virus Goku, and there's also nothing indicating that Goku, upon transforming for Trunks, was putting out his full power for Trunks. All Trunks wanted him to do was transform for him, and Goku had no reason to believe that Trunks wanted to fight him (even upon being "tested", Goku knew Trunks wasn't serious), so Tenshinhan's astonishment about a "sick Goku" could simply mean that Goku was holding back some of his strength when it came to Trunks.

3) Again, they have no source of gravity outside of the Room of Spirit and Time, so when Piccolo wants them to do some training for the day, he can only mean in Earth conditions.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It shows that Piccolo can send the boys to endure gravity training and since Trunks ins't used to it, the boys will receive a huge power up. Piccolo only trained them to do the fusion properly, no training to increase their battle power was ever made, that wast next on Piccolo's plan.

Where would they have done gravity training? When did Piccolo mention gravity training? How would Piccolo expect huge gains when he said that he expected small gains?

Tenshinhan sensed Yardrat Goku and was astonished as the power of a sick Goku, meaning sick Goku is stronger than Yardrat Goku and Piccolo is stronger than that. Inferring huge improvements, again, with normal earth bound training.

Piccolo did better than sick SS Goku because he had a healthy body. Again, battle powers aren't everything.

Gravity training is effective until the body get's used to it, namely the muscles. Trunks clearly isn't used to it while training with his dad and is probably the reason Gotenks made such huge gains, because the body isn't used to it. It ultimately means Gotenks can be weaker than Fat Buu but can endure gravity training and surpass him.

Goku had seen what kind of power Fusion gives, and he knew exactly how strong the kids were. He was sure that SS Gotenks would have been strong enough to defeat Fat Boo without training, and Piccolo had them train under no special conditions for a day so that they can get a little stronger just in case, since they couldn't be sure about Fat Boo's power, which was like a lie because of his rage boosts. The section in the SEG that states the multipliers of the Super Saiyan forms also state that Fusion multiplies the battle powers, so it's not just an addition of the two, and Toriyama supervised & approved this.

[Draconic]

To play devil's advocate for a moment:
I reread the thread about Goku not being a Superman in any way and something occurred to me. Many people argue that Goku mostly fights to get stronger and he wouldn't really fight to save the world, just for the sake of saving it, but to become stronger. As we know, he states that he could have defeated Fat Buu and Kid Buu if he set his mind to it, but wanted to fight. So he thinks he is stronger than the two of them, so they aren't worth the fight at full power, especially since SSJ3 is unmastered. Also, he says he didn't want to beat Fat Buu to give the kids a chance to do it, which doesn't sound like the selfish Goku we all know.
What I am saying is that Goku could have been strong enough to defeat all Buu's, before Buutenks and Buuhan, at least, but chose not to since they were too weak for him and wouldn't pose much challenge. And since he knew Gotenks and Gohan could have enough power to defeat Buu, he simply didn't care about saving the world, at least until everyone was dead and it's only chance was to fight himself.

This is really grasping at straws, but what do you think about it, guys? Does that sound like something Goku would do?

[Captain Space]

To play devil's advocate for a moment:
I reread the thread about Goku not being a Superman in any way and something occurred to me. Many people argue that Goku mostly fights to get stronger and he wouldn't really fight to save the world, just for the sake of saving it, but to become stronger. As we know, he states that he could have defeated Fat Buu and Kid Buu if he set his mind to it, but wanted to fight. So he thinks he is stronger than the two of them, so they aren't worth the fight at full power, especially since SSJ3 is unmastered. Also, he says he didn't want to beat Fat Buu to give the kids a chance to do it, which doesn't sound like the selfish Goku we all know.
What I am saying is that Goku could have been strong enough to defeat all Buu's, before Buutenks and Buuhan, at least, but chose not to since they were too weak for him and wouldn't pose much challenge. And since he knew Gotenks and Gohan could have enough power to defeat Buu, he simply didn't care about saving the world, at least until everyone was dead and it's only chance was to fight himself.

This is really grasping at straws, but what do you think about it, guys? Does that sound like something Goku would do?

Fat Buu, sure. Kid Buu, maybe.

Super Buu? Not to the extent that he'd lie about not being able to beat Super Buu, especially after the kids have already tried and failed.

[supercat]

If Goku explicitly stated that he can't defeat Super Buu, then that's that.

Even though he may senselessly put his eggs in the wrong basket at times, he's shown that he does come through when things legitimately get out of hand.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

If Goku explicitly stated that he can't defeat Super Buu, then that's that.

Even though he may senselessly put his eggs in the wrong basket at times, he's shown that he does come through when things legitimately get out of hand.

Toriyama seemed to have forgot that Gohan/Gotenks were the strongest and made Goku/Vegeta the strongest in the Battle of Gods stuff.

[h0kuten]

The problem with Goku saying he can't beat Super Buu is contradicted by Goku stating we, meaning himself a Vegeta, are no match for him. He doesn't explicitly state myself. Which leads me to believe he's including Vegeta in the equation, which also seems to implicate he would only use Ssj2 with Vegeta. To implicate Ssj2 leaves the exclusion of Ssj3, not to mention Ssj3 makes Ssj2 so useless that it's not worth even mentioning.

Dragonball Super also mentions Kid Buu as the strongest Majin excluding Buu's absorbed forms. It's entirely possible that Goku only wanted to fight Buu on a fair fight basis, seeing as how Buu is still influenced in his form, meaning Goku wouldn't want to fight him.

[Darkprince410]

The problem with Goku saying he can't beat Super Buu is contradicted by Goku stating we, meaning himself a Vegeta, are no match for him. He doesn't explicitly state myself. Which leads me to believe he's including Vegeta in the equation, which also seems to implicate he would only use Ssj2 with Vegeta. To implicate Ssj2 leaves the exclusion of Ssj3, not to mention Ssj3 makes Ssj2 so useless that it's not worth even mentioning.

How does that implicate that at all? Goku doesn't remotely indicate that he'd only stick to the same form Vegeta uses, nor does it make any sense at all that he'd do anything of the sort. The only reason Goku would say that sort of thing is if he's taking into account everything he and Vegeta are capable of, which means Super Saiya-jin 3 on Goku's part. Vegeta already knows about the form, so the one "reason" he'd potentially have not to use it is already out the window. Do you really think that Goku would have desired to fuse permanently with Vegeta again (as he berated Vegeta multiple times about destroying the Potara while indicating that fusion was their only way of winning) if he wasn't talking about his full power? Hell, with Vegeta readily knowing the form's existence and being so angry with Goku for having purposely held back during their battle together, he'd likely get even angrier if Goku patronized him by only trying to fight Buu as a Super Saiya-jin 2.

The only way that line makes any sense is if Goku is outright admitting that he as a Super Saiya-jin 3 with Vegeta as a Super Saiya-jin 2 couldn't beat Evil Buu. Simple.

Dragonball Super also mentions Kid Buu as the strongest Majin excluding Buu's absorbed forms. It's entirely possible that Goku only wanted to fight Buu on a fair fight basis, seeing as how Buu is still influenced in his form, meaning Goku wouldn't want to fight him.

When was that ever stated? The only times Buu was ever referenced that I'm aware of were strongly suggested to be blanket statements about Ma-jin Buu in general, not specific forms of Buu at all. Likewise, Goku wasn't aware of any influences with Buu at the time, as they had yet to stumble across Mr. Buu's cocoon. Likewise, Goku was oblivious to the two Buus battling one another and the Pure Evil Buu absorbing Mr. Buu. At the time he stated he and Vegeta stood no chance, the only internal influences he would have been aware of were Gohan and the others, and they were already disconnected.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't think this sentiment has to be consistent with the manga at all or that it directly contradicts any fact that I've seen.

According to the manga, SS3 Goku & SS Gotenks are at around the same level, meaning that SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan are many times stronger than SS3 Goku. Goku said back in the Cell Games that there isn't much more room for improvement for him, which is why he didn't stay for a full year inside the RoSaT, and didn't enter inside for a 2nd year either, he didn't believe it would make a big difference. After 7 years of intense training in the Heaven, with a dead body, he reached SS2 & SS3, and as a SS2, he surpassed SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, but not by much, as Piccolo wasn't sure about it. And you are telling me that after 4 years of less intense training, Goku managed to become many times stronger than he was before, and it makes sense?

Narrative-speaking, Gohan and Gotenks were more powerful, but Boo defeated them. Goku defeated Boo and perhaps this is the fact Vegeta is basing his sentiments on. I agree that may completely ignore the powerlevel's subject, but that's how I believe the facts are presented now.

In regards to what Goku said about the RoSaT, he said he got as strong as he could possibly get inside the room, no? I don't think this was supposed to mean he can't get stronger with other methods of training, just that the room can't help him anymore. In another hand, even if that was supposed to mean he can't get any stronger, that would fit with Goku ending his role in Dragon Ball, passing the torch to Gohan. By the Boo Arc, we see that Goku far surpassed his previous level by training in Heaven (going from being helpless against Cell to being probably able to defeat Good Boo alone). In 4 years, I don't have any problems with Goku and Vegeta getting much stronger, but sure there might be a limit to how strong they could get with the kind of training they choose. At the very least, in DBS Goku and Vegeta must have been training harder and more effectively than that they did before fighting Boo.

[Truhan]

I just wanted to say one last thing to breed more fact whoring: what if Vegeta said that Goku is #1, which would mean being stronger than Gohan, with Vegeta behind Goku as the #2, when they are at base? It would change nothing from the Babidi/Buu saga, actually, and it wouldn't contradict our beliefs that Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku with his Hidden Potential unleashed (which is not a base state).

[Draconic]

I just wanted to say one last thing to breed more fact whoring: what if Vegeta said that Goku is #1, which would mean being stronger than Gohan, with Vegeta behind Goku as the #2, when they are at base? It would change nothing from the Babidi/Buu saga, actually, and it wouldn't contradict our beliefs that Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku with his Hidden Potential unleashed (which is not a base state).

Gotenks would also be excluded from the discussion, since we know that Vegeta doesn't take fusions into account, so that leaves Goku, Gohan and Vegeta and, if we go by that fact that Gohan's Ultimate state is indeed a transformation, this is the only really rational argument I've seen.

[Truhan]

Ultimately, Mr. Boo would still be stronger than any base Saiyan (and I like to believe that Piccolo as well), but whatever.

[Draconic]

Ultimately, Mr. Boo would still be stronger than any base Saiyan (and I like to believe that Piccolo as well), but whatever.

Well, Mr Boo kinda did nothing of worth. The reason he could have survived against Kid Buu, while also very weak, is that he is very durable.

[Super_Vegetto]

Gohan fanboys can't seem to accept that there are people stronger than him

[h0kuten]

Majin Buu Saga

Spoiler:

Goku
~Base 90,000,000
~Ssj 4,500,000,000
~Ssj2 9,000,000,000
~Ssj3 36,000,000,000

Good Buu
~Full Power 18,000,000,000
Kid Buu
~Full Power 38,000,000,000

EOZ

Spoiler:

Goku
~Base 36,0000,000,000
~Ssj 1,800,000,000,000
~Ssj2 3,600,000,000,000
~Ssj3 14,400,000,000,000

Goten (Hypothetical)
~Base 20,000,000,000
~Ssj 1,000,000,000,000

Uub
~Calm 5
~Enraged 38,000,000,000

As you can see, my arbitrary numbers dictate that Goku increased his strength by 400x during the 10 year gap. Goku even tells Goten that fighting Good Buu wouldn't be an issue if he didn't keep slacking off with training. These implications debunk those whom try to use the 7 year gap as evidence that Goku and Co can't get much stronger.

Dragonball Super & Battle of Gods all back this up by showing Goku training on King Kai's planet. He is able to have King Kai create special training equipment and Vegeta is also shown to be doing gravity training.

So with all that said and done, the feats quite clearly show Vegeta as being stronger than Ultimate Gohan and we now have implications and evidence to back it up and show how it was possible. Goku at Ssj3 should be twice as strong as Buuhan now because he and Vegeta are equals at the same Super Saiyan states.

[singsing]

Majin Buu Saga

Goku base : 100 million

EoZ

Goku base : 110 million

As you can see, my arbitrary numbers say Goku didn't get much stronger.

How is putting arbitrary numbers out there proof of anything again? Who says Goku didn't have King Kai use all forms of special training during the timeskip?

[Kaboom]

Gohan fanboys can't seem to accept that there are people stronger than him

Please keep these types of comments to yourself. They're vindictive and contribute nothing to the conversation.