Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

Well it's that the movie confirmed the comment is what makes it more difficult to just ignore because they said he was at 70% in the movie and 7>6.

But you know this is a different version and maybe they're just going a different route altogether.

Super Beerus >>>>>>>>> Movie Beerus

It'd be kinda like how the old movies made SSJ3 Goku stronger than Mystic Gohan even though in the series it wasn't that way at all.

Oh and apparently Hit wasn't at full power.

Agreed. I myself am of the opinion that everyone had been giving the 6-10-15 far too scientificity from the start, even though I used it as a general guideline myself.

Trying to give only weight to what we have directly been shown so far, probably there are three possible outcomes if Goku really used a Kaioken *10.

* SSB Goku + Kaioken is now drastically stronger than Beerus. Not impossible, strictly speaking, but improbable. In the next episodes

Spoiler:

Champa supposedly wants to kill Hit, and Hit appears to hold his own against this super amped Goku.

* Kaioken * 10 is not giving/cannot give a *10 boost to Super Saiyan Blue. Perhaps he has to use a Kaioken * 10 to have a % increase? This would prolly unnerve the "hey, keep it simple" part of the fanbase, and it's quite possibly more like an indirect logical consequence than a clear narrative direction.

* Goku is massively stronger, but some or all of Beerus' percentages during Battle of Gods were off.

Gotta say, it's really funny reading this thread after reading the episode summary or watching the episode itself. It's like they really want to swerve the more hardcore fans. I can picture them at a dining table, drinking sake and arguing "gentlemen, what else can we do to fudge with their heads?".

P.S. Oh, yeah, almost forgot there is still the "nerf the heck out of everyone minus Super Saiyan God" approach, like it recently happened with the idea Final Form Freeza may not be stronger than the strongest Buus... but we do know that Super Saiyan Blue is supposed to be stronger according to the most straightforward interpretation of the narrator's words.

ナレーター 「超サイヤ人ゴッドをも超えた姿へと変異を遂げた 孫 悟空」

Narrator: "Son Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even the Super Saiyan God."

... Oh, boy. I can already see the 50-page long debates.

[Bullza]

I honestly don't know what to think anymore, each episode seems to throw us more than the last one. If this 6/10/15 scale is no longer a factor which seems that way then we've wasted a ton of stuff thinking about it.

It is going to change how we put numbers to everything now because Beerus isn't a 10 and a Goku isn't a 6. They can be any number.

Goku could well be as strong as SSJG form after all now instead of being SSJ3 tier. And SSJB could really be someone with God power as a SSJ. So SSJB could multiply his power 50 fold.

It obviously completely kills the idea of the two base theory because we don't need to shoehorn things in to make them fit anymore.

[Birusu16]

I said months ago (it was after the episode where Whis compared Goku and Vegeta to a tiny tree while comparing Beerus to his large castle) that people should throw that scale out the window. Nobody wanted to. You don't have much of a choice now.

[Marlowe89]

Hold on, guys.

I haven't watched the episode myself, but how do we know that Kaioken wasn't just enhancing Goku's regular ki? If he's just layering x10 of his base Kaioken strength over SSB, and we still presume that his base is much lower in strength than SSB, then theoretically SSB Goku + x10 Kaioken wouldn't be that much stronger since it's not enhancing his god power; it would just give him a bit of an extra push.

This would make more sense to me because of all the prior evidence that indicated base Goku wasn't all that close to the SSG tier.

[dbzfan7]

Hey there's one good thing. Vegeta can't be 10% Beerus now. Even a 1 times 10 would make Goku equal to Beerus. SSJB has to be massively stronger than LOLRAGETA so fuck you LOLRAGETA. Easily the best part of this moment.

Can't wait til next week when power levels make even less sense . No one will ever be right because this is gonna keep on happening .

[ZombieVito]

Jesus Christ the fucking 10% comment. They can't even be consistent in there own series.

[Chiki]

I said months ago (it was after the episode where Whis compared Goku and Vegeta to a tiny tree while comparing Beerus to his large castle) that people should throw that scale out the window. Nobody wanted to. You don't have much of a choice now.

You never told me why Beerus needed 10% against SS2 Vegeta. You completely ignored it. Please don't make comments like these if you can't defend your own views at all.

Anyway, during the ep Beerus says that he can barely keep up with Goku's movements, pretty much proving that Kaioken x10 SSB Goku is too much for Beerus (though that doesn't mean he can beat him in a fight or surpass him overall).

I think we should just say that the scale is both correct and incorrect, logically contradictory, and the power levels in Super makes no sense.

[LowRyder2005]

Hold on, guys.

I haven't watched the episode myself, but how do we know that Kaioken wasn't just enhancing Goku's regular ki? If he's just layering x50 of his base Kaioken strength over SSB, and we still presume that his base is much lower in strength than SSB, then theoretically SSB Goku + x50 Kaioken wouldn't be that much stronger since it's not enhancing his god power; it would just give him a bit of an extra push.

This would make more sense to me because of all the prior evidence that indicated base Goku wasn't all that close to the god tier.

Yeah, that would be one of my points (second one, namely) too. I don't see it as particularly far-fetched, but some would say it's not really intuitive either.

However, it's as the only thing that makes a lick of sense without starting to advocate the "Beerus must have lied against Goku" theory.
If Goku is at most 80% of Beerus now, if Goku and Vegeta teaming up could give Beerus trouble... Goku ending up a whopping EIGHT TIMES stronger means he should be fingerflicking Beerus to oblivion. Same for Hit, and it shouldn't be the case.

EDIT: Well, disregard that. It appears Hit was referring to Goku as a whole getting stronger.

@Chiki: very interesting.

[Bullza]

I haven't watched the episode myself, but how do we know that Kaioken wasn't just enhancing Goku's regular ki?

Because Hit watches him power up and he says "3x....4x....10x" So it's just his overall power multiplying rather than a specific part of it.

Hey there's one good thing. Vegeta can't be 10% Beerus now. Even a 1 times 10 would make Goku equal to Beerus.

Yeah regular SSJB isn't even a 10th as strong as Beerus and the same is true for Golden Frieza most likely.

It also means that SSJG Goku and Beerus were sending out universe threatening shockwaves at less than 10% of the power they currently have at max.

[TheMikado]

I said months ago (it was after the episode where Whis compared Goku and Vegeta to a tiny tree while comparing Beerus to his large castle) that people should throw that scale out the window. Nobody wanted to. You don't have much of a choice now.

This comment makes even level sense in the context of Whis telling them that if they teamed up they could probably take out Beerus. Two tiny trees aren't about to topple a freaking castle unless their big @$$ trees or a small @$$ castle. In either case they would both need to be at least approximately half of Beerus power for that to work and even then they still seems to support the 6-10-15 theory more than the one off castle quote. There literally no other quote in the entirety of super or the movies which puts the gap that big but plenty to make them seem much smaller like the 6-10-15 scale implies.

Those who stand by the castle theory please tell me how you rectify the Whis gang up theory with that?

[TheMikado]

Hold on, guys.

I haven't watched the episode myself, but how do we know that Kaioken wasn't just enhancing Goku's regular ki? If he's just layering x10 of his base Kaioken strength over SSB, and we still presume that his base is much lower in strength than SSB, then theoretically SSB Goku + x10 Kaioken wouldn't be that much stronger since it's not enhancing his god power; it would just give him a bit of an extra push.

This would make more sense to me because of all the prior evidence that indicated base Goku wasn't all that close to the SSG tier.

That's even worse because it was said that there was like a 90% chance it would fail and he would die or something like that. Why take that big of a chance with that small of a boost???

[LowRyder2005]

Hold on, guys.

I haven't watched the episode myself, but how do we know that Kaioken wasn't just enhancing Goku's regular ki? If he's just layering x10 of his base Kaioken strength over SSB, and we still presume that his base is much lower in strength than SSB, then theoretically SSB Goku + x10 Kaioken wouldn't be that much stronger since it's not enhancing his god power; it would just give him a bit of an extra push.

This would make more sense to me because of all the prior evidence that indicated base Goku wasn't all that close to the SSG tier.

That's even worse because it was said that there was like a 90% chance it would fail and he would die or something like that. Why take that big of a chance with that small of a boost???

Well, a "relative small boost" doesn't necessarily mean an "absolute small boost". That and desperate times call for desperate measures.

But I support Bullza's sentiment: Hit clearly acts like Goku is getting 1000% stronger, to me.

[dbzfan7]

Anyway, during the ep Beerus says that he can barely keep up with Goku's movements, pretty much proving that Kaioken x10 SSB Goku is too much for Beerus (though that doesn't mean he can beat him in a fight or surpass him overall).

I think we should just say that the scale is both correct and incorrect, logically contradictory, and the power levels in Super makes no sense.

Did he say that? Herms didn't seem to mention that one on twitter.

[Hugo Boss]

Those who stand by the castle theory please tell me how you rectify the Whis gang up theory with that?

Those implications belong to different moments during Goku & Vegeta's training. They don't necessarily contradict each other. You can make a case of Goku and Vegeta needing Super Saiyan Blue to stand up against Beerus.

[Marlowe89]

Yeah regular SSJB isn't even a 10th as strong as Beerus and the same is true for Golden Frieza most likely.

It also means that SSJG Goku and Beerus were sending out universe threatening shockwaves at less than 10% of the power they currently have at max.

Or Kaioken SSB Goku is actually stronger than Beerus. Some of the things Herms clarified could imply that, actually.

I just refuse to believe that SSG Goku wasn't pushing Beerus to at least more than 50% of his strength in the BoG arc, or that base Cabba of all people is on par with SSG, or that Piccolo is suddenly a god tier fighter now because he could take out a somewhat gimped Frost. I don't think we should neglect everything beforehand just because of some ridiculous Kaioken moment.

[TheMikado]

Those who stand by the castle theory please tell me how you rectify the Whis gang up theory with that?

Those implications belong to different moments during Goku & Vegeta's training. They don't necessarily contradict each other. You can make a case of Goku and Vegeta needing Super Saiyan Blue to stand up against Beerus.

People are saying the castles and tree analogy applies to them in SSB form which made no sense since Whis was specifically talking about base. So then I assume you still believe in the 6-10-15 scale?

[Birusu16]

I said months ago (it was after the episode where Whis compared Goku and Vegeta to a tiny tree while comparing Beerus to his large castle) that people should throw that scale out the window. Nobody wanted to. You don't have much of a choice now.

You never told me why Beerus needed 10% against SS2 Vegeta. You completely ignored it. Please don't make comments like these if you can't defend your own views at all.

Anyway, during the ep Beerus says that he can barely keep up with Goku's movements, pretty much proving that Kaioken x10 SSB Goku is too much for Beerus (though that doesn't mean he can beat him in a fight or surpass him overall).

I think we should just say that the scale is both correct and incorrect, logically contradictory, and the power levels in Super makes no sense.

No it doesn't. The very fact that he states that he's annoyed that Goku didn't use it against him in their first fight proves it isn't too much for him. And this is completely ignoring the fact that Toriyama flat out stated he had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus. And don't give me the surpassing someone temporarily isn't considering "surpassing" them speech. Tell that to Vegeta who flat out loses it in this episode due to Goku "surpassing" him yet again.

I ignored it because there's nothing to prove. It was an arbitrary number from a character who has lied about the amount of power he's used on several occasions.

[Birusu16]

I said months ago (it was after the episode where Whis compared Goku and Vegeta to a tiny tree while comparing Beerus to his large castle) that people should throw that scale out the window. Nobody wanted to. You don't have much of a choice now.

This comment makes even level sense in the context of Whis telling them that if they teamed up they could probably take out Beerus. Two tiny trees aren't about to topple a freaking castle unless their big @$$ trees or a small @$$ castle. In either case they would both need to be at least approximately half of Beerus power for that to work and even then they still seems to support the 6-10-15 theory more than the one off castle quote. There literally no other quote in the entirety of super or the movies which puts the gap that big but plenty to make them seem much smaller like the 6-10-15 scale implies.

Those who stand by the castle theory please tell me how you rectify the Whis gang up theory with that?

Stop bringing that statement up. It's NEVER said in Super. The only time Whis ever states Goku and Vegeta can fight toe to toe with Beerus is in the RoF movie. Why people keep trying to mix Super with the movies I've no idea.

And the gap is implied to be enormous by this very episode. Goku multiplies his SSJB power by 10 with his KK and yet is still weaker than Beerus. That fits perfectly well with Whis' tree/castle comparison while simultaneously destroying the 6/10/15 scale.

[Hugo Boss]

Those who stand by the castle theory please tell me how you rectify the Whis gang up theory with that?

Those implications belong to different moments during Goku & Vegeta's training. They don't necessarily contradict each other. You can make a case of Goku and Vegeta needing Super Saiyan Blue to stand up against Beerus.

People are saying the castles and tree analogy applies to them in SSB form which made no sense since Whis was specifically talking about base. So then I assume you still believe in the 6-10-15 scale?

Well, these people probably overlooked the fact that Super Saiyan Blue wasn't a thing when Whis made that comment. He also didn't specify any form. I think that if you look only to movie's content, you might think Toriyama gave them the right numbers.

[TheMikado]

I'm also certain something to that effect was said in Super as well. I'll never be able to find it though.