Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Birusu16]

I'm also certain something to that effect was said in Super as well. I'll never be able to find it though.

Nothing was said in Super that was similar to that statement from Whis in the movie. I've watched those episodes numerous times.

[LightBing]

Now I know the movies shouldn't be brought up and that the anime can't be trusted. I remember when the 10% line came out, I mentioned it was the writers throwing us a bone, to make the comparison of powers easier. I guess they either didn't coordinate writers or didn't know at the time about introduction of SSJBK.

I shall now strictly follow the manga for this discussions, with the exception of the RoF arc were I'll follow the anime. Who's with me? The manga seems to actually try.

[ZombieVito]

We don't even know if the manga will pull this shit as well.

I will most likely use both. Piccolo's fight in the tournament is miles ahead of the manga version.

[dbzfan7]

No mention of that Super comparison of Goku & Vegeta to Beerus. This is about it on the subject I think.

Minute: 15
Context: Goku and Vegeta are placed inside Whis' staff

Whis: "Beerus-sama, don't you think it was a bit too soon to send them to 'that place'?"
Beerus: "It's fine. The more you push people like them into a corner, the stronger they get. So, might as well. I need to get them to become strong fast, or they won't even make good playmates for me."

[TheMikado]

I'm also certain something to that effect was said in Super as well. I'll never be able to find it though.

Nothing was said in Super that was similar to that statement from Whis in the movie. I've watched those episodes numerous times.

Can anyone else confirm this? Not saying I don't trust you but I'd like to know if anyone else have confirmation on this? Also would the works Toriyama directly worked on be considered the most reliable versions of those stories?

Edit: looks like I got some confirmation above, but that seems to at least sound like they are getting close to some sort of power level of significance when compared to Beerus and not some measily 10% that Rageta managed to achieve.

[LightBing]

We don't even know if the manga will pull this shit as well.

I will most likely use both. Piccolo's fight in the tournament is miles ahead of the manga version.

The manga can pull this and make it. There's no percentage talk whatsoever, so the SSJBK wouldn't contradict anything.

[Khin]

Can anyone else confirm this? Not saying I don't trust you but I'd like to know if anyone else have confirmation on this? Also would the works Toriyama directly worked on be considered the most reliable versions of those stories?

Yes,it was never said in Super,that was movie-only.

[TheMikado]

We don't even know if the manga will pull this shit as well.

I will most likely use both. Piccolo's fight in the tournament is miles ahead of the manga version.

The manga can pull this and make it. There's no percentage talk whatsoever, so the SSJBK wouldn't contradict anything.

Wait so the manga doesn't have any of this power level gauging in it??

[Chiki]

I said months ago (it was after the episode where Whis compared Goku and Vegeta to a tiny tree while comparing Beerus to his large castle) that people should throw that scale out the window. Nobody wanted to. You don't have much of a choice now.

You never told me why Beerus needed 10% against SS2 Vegeta. You completely ignored it. Please don't make comments like these if you can't defend your own views at all.

Anyway, during the ep Beerus says that he can barely keep up with Goku's movements, pretty much proving that Kaioken x10 SSB Goku is too much for Beerus (though that doesn't mean he can beat him in a fight or surpass him overall).

I think we should just say that the scale is both correct and incorrect, logically contradictory, and the power levels in Super makes no sense.

No it doesn't. The very fact that he states that he's annoyed that Goku didn't use it against him in their first fight proves it isn't too much for him. And this is completely ignoring the fact that Toriyama flat out stated he had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus. And don't give me the surpassing someone temporarily isn't considering "surpassing" them speech. Tell that to Vegeta who flat out loses it in this episode due to Goku "surpassing" him yet again.

I ignored it because there's nothing to prove. It was an arbitrary number from a character who has lied about the amount of power he's used on several occasions.

Ok, here is what "surpass" means. Goku surpassed Vegeta because their SSBs are equal but Goku would win in a fight because Kaioken with SSB is strong enough to defeat Vegeta. However, Goku did not surpass Beerus because while Kaioken with SSB is stronger than Beerus, it is not enough to actually defeat him in combat because Beerus could likely survive the onslaught for long enough to exhaust Goku.

Start of DBZ Piccolo would get owned by Raditz. But Piccolo charging the Makankosappo surpasses Raditz. Doesn't mean anything at all!

Yes, he was annoyed Goku didn't use it in their first fight because SSB >>>>> SSG.

Pretty sure he's only lied about it once when he said he was using full power against Goku, to motivate him. That's it. There is no reason or evidence to believe that he lied about using 10% against Vegeta.

[TheMikado]

What exactly does Beerus gain from all this constant lying to the point where we think any comment he makes about his power is BS

[LowRyder2005]

Very interesting. It could mean that Beerus thought that fighting Blue Kaioken Goku could have been exciting. So, even if we want to be generous, we could write it down as something like this.

------------ Realm of Gods ------------
Whis/ Vados: Much higher
Beerus: 12,500
Champa: 11,800
Goku SS Blue + Kaioken * 10: 10,000
Goku (SSG): 7,500
Hit: 6,000
Beerus (BOG; Goku's estimation): 6,000
SS3 Vegito (BOG; Goku's estimation): 5,000
Golden Freeza: 1,200
Goku/ Vegeta SS Blue: 1,000

------------ Mid to High Z-tier ------------
SS Vegito (Buu Arc): 600
Super Buu-Gohan (Buu Arc): 320
BOG's SS2 Vegeta (angry) + Galick Gun: 210 (note: 1.68% of Beerus, he tanks him by shooting up to, say, 7.5%)
Goku/ Vegeta SS (post-training; full power): 100 (note: used by Vegeta to defeat Magetta, who just happens to be impervious to damage)
BOG's SS2 Vegeta (angry): 70
Base Goku/ Vegeta (post-training/ powered-up): 65 (note: this is the base Goku that fights Fourth Form Freeza)
Final Form Freeza: 55
BOG's SS3 Goku (pre-training): 50
SS Cabba: 30

------------ Low to mid Z-tier ------------
Goku/ Vegeta SS (post-training; vs. Frost, Magetta and Cabba): 10
Magetta: 9
SS Gotenks: 5.5
Final Form Frost: 5
Mr. Buu: 4
Assault Form Frost: 3.5
First Form Freeza (ROF): 3
Goku/ Vegeta (Base/ post-training): 2
***** Piccolo's Makankosappo: 2
Final Form Frost (weakened/ tired): 1.5
SS Gohan: 1
Ginyu (Tagoma's body): 0.72
Cabba: 0.6
Tagoma: 0.5
Piccolo (all sagas, minor variations): 0.28
First Form Frost: 0.22
BOG's Goku (Base/ pre-training): 0.125
Botamo: 0.075

It would mean they'd have basically shifted everyone down to some tiers compared to the general sentiment. I thinks this would work as a charm, but...
The problem? It contradicts the Super Saiyan Blue being something that exceeds Super Saiyan God, so it can't really work with that single comment of the narrator.

It's either this or call Beerus bluffing throughout most or all of BOG, I guess (but while I would understand lying to Goku... what would the point of saying to Vegeta he had to use near 10% to tank his attack with a gratuitous lie? Makes no sense).
I feel slightly more comfortable ditching the narration or call it poor wording, at this point. I'll probably keep this mindset until I feel more confident to call Beerus' bluff.

[LightBing]

We don't even know if the manga will pull this shit as well.

I will most likely use both. Piccolo's fight in the tournament is miles ahead of the manga version.

The manga can pull this and make it. There's no percentage talk whatsoever, so the SSJBK wouldn't contradict anything.

Wait so the manga doesn't have any of this power level gauging in it??

None. There's even no mention of Goku absorbing the God Power against Beerus. Basically SSJG Goku deflects Beerus energy ball, Whis goes to interrupt the fight. Next panel Goku is in base and the fight is over.

[Birusu16]

Ok, here is what "surpass" means. Goku surpassed Vegeta because their SSBs are equal but Goku would win in a fight because Kaioken with SSB is strong enough to defeat Vegeta. However, Goku did not surpass Beerus because while Kaioken with SSB is stronger than Beerus, it is not enough to actually defeat him in combat because Beerus could likely survive the onslaught for long enough to exhaust Goku.

Start of DBZ Piccolo would get owned by Raditz. But Piccolo charging the Makankosappo surpasses Raditz. Doesn't mean anything at all!

Yes, he was annoyed Goku didn't use it in their first fight because SSB >>>>> SSG.

Pretty sure he's only lied about it once when he said he was using full power against Goku, to motivate him. That's it. There is no reason or evidence to believe that he lied about using 10% against Vegeta.

No, he didn't surpass Beerus because he's simply not strong enough. It's as simple as that. Absolutely nothing in this episode indicates otherwise. That whole Beerus could barely see Goku's movements nonsense was a mistranslation. It's never mentioned by Herms in either his summary or on twitter.

And surpass means just that, surpass. Temporarily surpassing is still surpassing. Vegeta sees it that way and the series sees it that way.

[Marlowe89]

Very interesting. It could mean that Beerus thought that fighting Blue Kaioken Goku could have been exciting. So, even if we want to be generous, we could write it down as something like this.

------------ Realm of Gods ------------
Whis/ Vados: Much higher
Beerus: 12,500
Champa: 11,800
Goku SS Blue + Kaioken: 10,000
Goku (SSG): 7,500
Hit: 6,000
Beerus (BOG; Goku's estimation): 6,000
SS3 Vegito (BOG; Goku's estimation): 5,000
Golden Freeza: 1,200
Goku/ Vegeta SS Blue: 1,000

------------ Mid to High Z-tier ------------
SS Vegito (Buu Arc): 600
Super Buu-Gohan: 320
Goku/ Vegeta SS (post-training; full power): 100 (note: used by Vegeta to defeat Magetta, who just happens to be impervious to damage)
Base Goku/ Vegeta (post-training/ powered-up): 50 (note: this is the base Goku that fights Fourth Form Freeza)
Final Form Freeza: 40
BOG's SS2 Vegeta (angry): 35 -> 1.4% of Beerus, for some reason he tanks him by shooting up to, say, 7.5%
SS Cabba: 30
BOG's SS3 Goku (pre-training): 20

------------ Low to mid Z-tier ------------
Goku/ Vegeta SS (post-training; vs. Frost, Magetta and Cabba): 10
Magetta: 9
Mr. Buu: 8.5
Final Form Frost: 6
Assault Form Frost: 3.5
First Form Freeza (ROF): 3
***** Piccolo's Makankosappo: 2
Final Form Frost (weakened/ tired): 1.5
SS Gotenks: 1.5 (TOEI logic)
SS Gohan: 1
Goku/ Vegeta (Base/ post-training): 2
Ginyu (Tagoma's body): 0.72
Cabba: 0.6
Tagoma: 0.5
Piccolo (all sagas, minor variations): 0.28
First Form Frost: 0.22
Botamo: 0.075
BOG's Goku (Base/ pre-training): 0.05

It would mean they'd have basically shifted everyone down to some tiers compared to the general sentiment. I thinks this would work as a charm, but...
The problem? It contradicts the Super Saiyan Blue being something that exceeds Super Saiyan God, so it can't really work with that single comment of the narrator.

It's either this or call Beerus bluffing throughout most or all of BOG, I guess (but while I would understand lying to Goku... what would the point of saying to Vegeta he had to use near 10% to tank his attack with a gratuitous lie? Makes no sense).
I feel more slightly comfortable ditching the narration or call it poor wording, at this point.

I'd honestly be more willing to go with what you have and speculate that SSB only possesses a fraction of SSG's true power than assume that Beerus was flat-out lying in the BoG arc. The latter just doesn't make even a small modicum of sense to me and it frankly cheapens that entire battle.

[Chiki]

Ok, here is what "surpass" means. Goku surpassed Vegeta because their SSBs are equal but Goku would win in a fight because Kaioken with SSB is strong enough to defeat Vegeta. However, Goku did not surpass Beerus because while Kaioken with SSB is stronger than Beerus, it is not enough to actually defeat him in combat because Beerus could likely survive the onslaught for long enough to exhaust Goku.

Start of DBZ Piccolo would get owned by Raditz. But Piccolo charging the Makankosappo surpasses Raditz. Doesn't mean anything at all!

Yes, he was annoyed Goku didn't use it in their first fight because SSB >>>>> SSG.

Pretty sure he's only lied about it once when he said he was using full power against Goku, to motivate him. That's it. There is no reason or evidence to believe that he lied about using 10% against Vegeta.

No, he didn't surpass Beerus because he's simply not strong enough. It's as simple as that. Absolutely nothing in this episode indicates otherwise. That whole Beerus could barely see Goku's movements nonsense was a mistranslation. It's never mentioned by Herms in either his summary or on twitter.

And surpass means just that, surpass. Temporarily surpassing is still surpassing. Vegeta sees it that way and the series sees it that way.

...Do you have any proof it's a mistranslation apart from "it's never mentioned by Herms"? Lol, that's a weak argument. But we'll wait and see when the subs come out tomorrow.

Temporarily surpassing is not surpassing, since it implies that start of DBZ Piccolo is stronger than Raditz because his Makankosappo's power level after charging for a while is higher than Raditz's power level. This is nonsense. I'm not going to keep replying to you just so I can make this basic point over and over again.

[Birusu16]

Ok, here is what "surpass" means. Goku surpassed Vegeta because their SSBs are equal but Goku would win in a fight because Kaioken with SSB is strong enough to defeat Vegeta. However, Goku did not surpass Beerus because while Kaioken with SSB is stronger than Beerus, it is not enough to actually defeat him in combat because Beerus could likely survive the onslaught for long enough to exhaust Goku.

Start of DBZ Piccolo would get owned by Raditz. But Piccolo charging the Makankosappo surpasses Raditz. Doesn't mean anything at all!

Yes, he was annoyed Goku didn't use it in their first fight because SSB >>>>> SSG.

Pretty sure he's only lied about it once when he said he was using full power against Goku, to motivate him. That's it. There is no reason or evidence to believe that he lied about using 10% against Vegeta.

No, he didn't surpass Beerus because he's simply not strong enough. It's as simple as that. Absolutely nothing in this episode indicates otherwise. That whole Beerus could barely see Goku's movements nonsense was a mistranslation. It's never mentioned by Herms in either his summary or on twitter.

And surpass means just that, surpass. Temporarily surpassing is still surpassing. Vegeta sees it that way and the series sees it that way.

...Do you have any proof it's a mistranslation apart from "it's never mentioned by Herms"? Lol, that's a weak argument. But we'll wait and see when the subs come out tomorrow.

Temporarily surpassing is not surpassing, Mr. I think Start of DBZ Piccolo is stronger than Raditz because his Makankosappo's power level after charging for a while is higher than Raditz's power level.

It came from an unreliable Spanish sub, isn't ever mentioned by Herms, and the only person who has brought it up thus far is you. Do you speak Japanese? If not then please tell me where you found that translation because as far as I know, english subs aren't even out yet let alone any decent ones. I've only heard that line mentioned in a rushed Spanish sub that's known to ALWAYS make translation errors. And you think I'm the one with the weak argument?

Yes it is. Twist it as much as you like, temporarily surpassing someone is still surpassing someone just like Goku has now surpassed Vegeta despite that power only being "temporary"

[Chiki]

It came from an unreliable Spanish sub, isn't ever mentioned by Herms, and the only person who has brought it up thus far is you. Do you speak Japanese? If not then please tell me where you found that translation because as far as I know, english subs aren't even out yet let alone any decent ones. I've only heard that line mentioned in a rushed Spanish sub that's known to ALWAYS make translation errors. And you think I'm the one with the weak argument?

Yes it is. Twist it as much as you like, temporarily surpassing someone is still surpassing someone just like Goku has now surpassed Vegeta despite that power only being "temporary"

Yes, I can speak basic Japanese and understand some of it. I haven't seen the ep myself yet and I will tomorrow.

Look, Toriyama clearly doesn't think it's surpassing if that translation is true, and that's all that matters. Linguistic facts are determined by the opinions of the majority, and I'm pretty sure almost no one else thinks that Start of DBZ Piccolo is stronger than Raditz, so you're just wrong, I'm sorry.

[Birusu16]

It came from an unreliable Spanish sub, isn't ever mentioned by Herms, and the only person who has brought it up thus far is you. Do you speak Japanese? If not then please tell me where you found that translation because as far as I know, english subs aren't even out yet let alone any decent ones. I've only heard that line mentioned in a rushed Spanish sub that's known to ALWAYS make translation errors. And you think I'm the one with the weak argument?

Yes it is. Twist it as much as you like, temporarily surpassing someone is still surpassing someone just like Goku has now surpassed Vegeta despite that power only being "temporary"

Yes, I can speak basic Japanese and understand some of it. I haven't seen the ep myself yet and I will tomorrow.

Look, Toriyama clearly doesn't think it's surpassing if that translation is true, and that's all that matters. Linguistic facts are determined by the opinions of the majority, and I'm pretty sure almost no one else thinks that Start of DBZ Piccolo is stronger than Raditz, so you're just wrong, I'm sorry.

So how the heck can you even begin to claim such a statement is legit when you haven't even seen the episode? In fact, where the heck did you even come up with that line if you haven't even seen the episode?

You can sit here and claim I'm wrong all you want. The facts suggest I'm right considering Vegeta flat out states he's been surpassed by a temporary power meaning temporarily surpassing is still surpassing. I could care less if you agree with me or not. And no, facts most certainly are not determined by the majority. They're determined by statistical data and factual statements. The fact that you actually believe the majority determines what is fact is astonishing.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Vados: 155

Whis: 150

Beerus: 100

Champa: 98

Goku SSJB: 9
Goku SSJB KKx10: 90

Hit: 10
Power up: ??

[ZombieVito]

Vados: 155

Whis: 150

Beerus: 100

Champa: 98

Goku SSJB: 9
Goku SSJB KKx10: 90

Hit: 10
Power up: ??

It just doesn't work. Why would Beerus use 10% of his power to beat enraged SSJ2 Vegeta? God damn it Toei.