Non-thread-worthy discussions

[MasenkoHA]

I mean even without Funimation's influence I still thought of Piccolo as just an alien and not a demon, to understand that being an alien doesn't stop him from being a demon you kinda have to know eastern folklore to understand that such things are spiritual, and not a different species, since DB doesn't really explain this. The one time that is talked about something like that to explain why Piccolo was different was to explain why Raditz went to the afterlife instead of agonizing for eternity, a detail that is generally not remembered, probably because the "agonize for eternity" detail had more emphasis in vanilla DB, and in DBZ it feels like a throwaway line for those who don't know how much of a big deal what Kami is saying is.

The lack of consistency really doesn't help, since King Piccolo is the only case of a character who became a demon by being pure evil, but Toriyama tends to make villains intro pure evil, and Freeza most obviously should be a demon, but isn't, so this can make King Piccolo being an alien all along feel like a much bigger retcon than it really is (And it's still a noticeable one).

There is no lack of consistency. Piccolo was the physical manifestation of the Nameless Namekians evil, Freeza was not. One is pure evil because of what they do, the other is pure evil because of what they are.

You don't have to know eastern folklore, you just have to be aware of Piccolo's origin...which is re-explained like what twice in DBZ?

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I always figured he simply makes them look like how he wants them to look. He's a demon king so naturally he's gonna make his minion offspring look demonic. Ma Junior is his successor so he made Ma Junior look like himself.

That'd have to be a demon exclusive power, either that or Namekians can do that but prefer to all look the same lol.

His children look different because he's a demon and can make them look however he wants is such a "no shit" explaination I don't even know why there's a debate about it

[Lukmendes]

The lack of consistency really doesn't help, since King Piccolo is the only case of a character who became a demon by being pure evil, but Toriyama tends to make villains intro pure evil, and Freeza most obviously should be a demon, but isn't, so this can make King Piccolo being an alien all along feel like a much bigger retcon than it really is (And it's still a noticeable one).

There is no lack of consistency. Piccolo was the physical manifestation of the Nameless Namekians evil, Freeza was not. One is pure evil because of what they do, the other is pure evil because of what they are.

You don't have to know eastern folklore, you just have to be aware of Piccolo's origin...which is re-explained like what twice in DBZ?[/quote]

Expelling your evil half and said evil half somehow becoming a demon still means that evilness makes you a demon, so it still sounds like if you're too evil you're becoming a demon in DB, but that only happened with King Piccolo and no one else.

Hell, didn't Toriyama say in databooks something about Kaioshins becoming demons if they're evil? Shouldn't Zamasu have become one?

His children look different because he's a demon and can make them look however he wants is such a "no shit" explaination I don't even know why there's a debate about it

'Cause Toriyama is so good at forgetting stuff that whether something makes sense because he planned it, or it's not something he planned but it just happens to make sense if you come up with some simple headcanon, can be hard to tell.

Like, we can say that Cell's ability to create Cell Jrs is related to a Namekian's ability to reproduce, which can sounds like a "no shit" situation, but it's done so differently and so suddenly that maybe it wasn't planned to be that way, but it can just happen to kinda work, if you come up with a simple headcanon.

So, the different appearance of his other children is easy to explain away as just his demonic power affecting their appearance, maybe it's the intention, maybe it's not but it just happens to work, but I can see why someone would think of the alien thing being a retcon and other Namekians contradict King Piccolo's kids, if it's a plot hole it's not even the worst one vanilla DB had (Worst one I found was characters telling Goku he can kill Piccolo and Kami can just be resurrected later with the dragon balls, only for Goku to later point out that if Kami dies the dragon balls are gone).

So yeah, problem is the lack of explanation, if one sees it as a retcon that causes a plot hole, I can understand, and if they don't, I can understand too.

[AliTheZombie13]

Toriyama: "I like the afterlife, there's a lot of hot babes there."
Also Toriyama: "Oh yeah, everybody becomes poofs of cloud after you die, but somehow Raditz managed to fight Enma Daio. Also, your body needs to be intact to be transferred to the other world."
Also Toriyama, again: "It's okay, guys. We can keep our bodies, even though they were completely obliterated, because it's a special service or something."
Also Toriyama, again again: "If you go to Hell, you'll go to some kind of purgatory, lose all of your memories and reincarnate as another living being."
Also Toriyama, again again again: "Dabra went to Heaven, because he would've found Hell too pleasant... But wasn't he supposed to lose his memories or something????? Or go to some kind of personal Hell like Freeza's???????"
Also Toriyama, again again again again: "There's several multiple different Hells, depending on the planet. So uh... Did anyone wonder what happens when said planet explodes??????"

And this is why I'm not taking any of the arguments above seriously.
I doubt Eastern Mythology had any bearing on how Toriyama wrote how Piccolo's children or his demonic powers worked before and/or after deciding he was an alien.

[Majin Buu]

That'd have to be a demon exclusive power, either that or Namekians can do that but prefer to all look the same lol.

Piccolo Daimao wasn't a normal Namekian though, so it's a fallacy to act as if everything about normal Namekians applies to him- Unless all Namekians just happen to be the cast off evil sides of other Namekians too.

You don't have to know eastern folklore, you just have to be aware of Piccolo's origin...which is re-explained like what twice in DBZ?

It also helps to remember what was said in the Piccolo arc about how those killed by demons don't go to the afterlife, which is based on Eastern folklore, but understanding that fokelore isn't necessary here since they're directly stating the info you need to know. Ditto for Kami's statement about Raditz going to the afterlife after being killed by Piccolo in DBZ- It serves as a reminder of how this works as well as a sign that Piccolo has changed- This in particular coming long after Toriyama decided to make him an alien.

His children look different because he's a demon and can make them look however he wants is such a "no shit" explaination I don't even know why there's a debate about it.

Honestly, this is such a minor thing to debate about that it comes off as being pedantic just for the sake of it to me.

[MasenkoHA]

(Worst one I found was characters telling Goku he can kill Piccolo and Kami can just be resurrected later with the dragon balls, only for Goku to later point out that if Kami dies the dragon balls are gone).

I just want to zero in on this one because ummm you do get that Kami was LYING to Goku about how he could be revived by the dragon balls. A lie that Goku called him out on. It's not a plot hole or an inconsistency.


Yeah, Dragon Ball isn't very strong with it's writing, but it's kind of amazing how often a fan will point to a plot hole that isn't a plot hole at all and just misunderstanding the material.

[

Honestly, this is such a minor thing to debate about that it comes off as being pedantic just for the sake of it to me.

It feels like fans needing to hyperfocus on the "But Piccolo is an alien??? He can't be a demon too!?!?" thing, which I will continue to blame on Funimation doing their damnest to avoid acknowledging Piccolo is/was a demon even in OG Dragon Ball.

[AliTheZombie13]

Less a plot hole and more an inconsistency that demonstrates Toriyama hadn't planned anything out at all.
Piccolo is literally introduced not knowing what a Dragon Ball is.

Can you try to explain it "Oh, but he's pure evil and a half of another character and yadda yadda yadda." Yes.
But ask yourself this question: If Toriyama had planned Piccolo out from the very beginning, knowing he'd be a Namekian, and having all the Namekian traits written down, would his children have looked the way they did? No.

I know, it's a minor thing and it shouldn't bother me that much.
That being said, I wish fans had that much leniency with mostly-harmless non-Toriyama material.

[MasenkoHA]

Piccolo is literally introduced not knowing what a Dragon Ball is.

Well...yeah Kami created the dragon balls after the two split and presumably after Piccolo was sealed in the electric rice cooker. It's not really an issue for Piccolo to not know what they are.

Toei creates a problem in GT when they decide that the original Namekian refugee created the black star balls before the split. But that's Toei being Toei and creating problems that weren't originally there.

But ask yourself this question: If Toriyama had planned Piccolo out from the very beginning, knowing he'd be a Namekian, and having all the Namekian traits written down, would his children have looked the way they did? No.

Seems like a pretty big assumption tbh. Maybe? This again seems likena hyperfixiation that Piccolo's alien origin somehow contradicts his mazoku nature and it doesn't.

[Lukmendes]

I just want to zero in on this one because ummm you do get that Kami was LYING to Goku about how he could be revived by the dragon balls. A lie that Goku called him out on. It's not a plot hole or an inconsistency.


Yeah, Dragon Ball isn't very strong with it's writing, but it's kind of amazing how often a fan will point to a plot hole that isn't a plot hole at all and just misunderstanding the material.

Re-reading my post, I explained my point very poorly, so I'll go into more detail.

While Goku was fighting Piccolo, in chapter 185, he said he was gonna kill Piccolo with the super Kamehameha, but then Roshi told him that would mean mean he'd kill Kami too, and then, Krillin told Goku he can do it and just use the dragon balls to resurrect Kami later, and Goku decides to go for the kill, and then, after the fight, in chapter 194, when Kami decides to try to kill Piccolo, Goku gets in the way, and when Kami says he can just be resurrected by the dragon balls, Goku points out it wouldn't work because the dragon balls would turn to stones.

So basically Goku just suddenly gains knowledge of something he clearly doesn't know in an earlier moment of the fight, which's probably just a retcon over how the dragon balls work Toriyama came up with afterwards, not unlike his explanation over how Cell's regeneration works coming afterwards in a way that completely contradicts an earlier scene.

Though at least the Piccolo case can be explained as Goku forgetting it because of the fight's tension, since he did forget about the "If you kill Piccolo you kill Kame too" detail initially, the Cell case can't be excused at all lol.

Toriyama: "I like the afterlife, there's a lot of hot babes there."
Also Toriyama: "Oh yeah, everybody becomes poofs of cloud after you die, but somehow Raditz managed to fight Enma Daio. Also, your body needs to be intact to be transferred to the other world."
Also Toriyama, again: "It's okay, guys. We can keep our bodies, even though they were completely obliterated, because it's a special service or something."
Also Toriyama, again again: "If you go to Hell, you'll go to some kind of purgatory, lose all of your memories and reincarnate as another living being."
Also Toriyama, again again again: "Dabra went to Heaven, because he would've found Hell too pleasant... But wasn't he supposed to lose his memories or something????? Or go to some kind of personal Hell like Freeza's???????"
Also Toriyama, again again again again: "There's several multiple different Hells, depending on the planet. So uh... Did anyone wonder what happens when said planet explodes??????"

And this is why I'm not taking any of the arguments above seriously.
I doubt Eastern Mythology had any bearing on how Toriyama wrote how Piccolo's children or his demonic powers worked before and/or after deciding he was an alien.

Y'know the only ones of those I noticed are body related, didn't think there were so many.

At least the "Hot babes" one can be excused as the women just happening to have been nice while living lol.

Piccolo Daimao wasn't a normal Namekian though, so it's a fallacy to act as if everything about normal Namekians applies to him- Unless all Namekians just happen to be the cast off evil sides of other Namekians too.

I mean I'm not denying the logic of it being his demonic power, it's just that since DB has a bunch of goofy contradictions, I can understand why one could consider King Piccolo's kids to be another on the pile, and I can also see why one could consider it as something that makes sense with the universe.

Honestly, this is such a minor thing to debate about that it comes off as being pedantic just for the sake of it to me.

This is the non-thread worthy discussion thread, and we're having a discussion about something trivial, I don't know why you and Masenko are having a problem with something that can be considered an inconsistency being discussed in a fitting thread.

[Hellspawn28]

I knew Piccolo was an alien before I knew anything about the series. He's green and alien antennas. With Goku, Vegeta, etc, you probably won't know that they are aliens if someone told you.

[AliTheZombie13]

Y'know the only ones of those I noticed are body related, didn't think there were so many.

At least the "Hot babes" one can be excused as the women just happening to have been nice while living lol.

According to Toriyama, just being nice doesn't cut it.
If you go with the Pre-Cell afterlife body rule, then their bodies would've had to been intact, and a deity had to teleport them.
If you go with the Post-Cell afterlife body rule, they would've had to have saved the world.
None of the two scenarios explain how Gohan kept his body when Goku killed him and hadn't saved anything yet.

[Majin Buu]

This is the non-thread worthy discussion thread, and we're having a discussion about something trivial, I don't know why you and Masenko are having a problem with something that can be considered an inconsistency being discussed in a fitting thread.

Because this in particular comes off like someone being pedantic and nitpicky in order to justify claiming that this is some kind of inconsistency when none of the arguments being made bare that out.

In other words, I consider this a nothing-burger being presented as something we're supposed to care about. I'm sorry, but I just don't see any issue here that justifies the discussion to begin with.

[MasenkoHA]

I just want to zero in on this one because ummm you do get that Kami was LYING to Goku about how he could be revived by the dragon balls. A lie that Goku called him out on. It's not a plot hole or an inconsistency.


Yeah, Dragon Ball isn't very strong with it's writing, but it's kind of amazing how often a fan will point to a plot hole that isn't a plot hole at all and just misunderstanding the material.

Re-reading my post, I explained my point very poorly, so I'll go into more detail.

While Goku was fighting Piccolo, in chapter 185, he said he was gonna kill Piccolo with the super Kamehameha, but then Roshi told him that would mean mean he'd kill Kami too, and then, Krillin told Goku he can do it and just use the dragon balls to resurrect Kami later, and Goku decides to go for the kill, and then, after the fight, in chapter 194, when Kami decides to try to kill Piccolo, Goku gets in the way, and when Kami says he can just be resurrected by the dragon balls, Goku points out it wouldn't work because the dragon balls would turn to stones.

So basically Goku just suddenly gains knowledge of something he clearly doesn't know in an earlier moment of the fight, which's probably just a retcon over how the dragon balls work Toriyama came up with afterwards, not unlike his explanation over how Cell's regeneration works coming afterwards in a way that completely contradicts an earlier scene.

Though at least the Piccolo case can be explained as Goku forgetting it because of the fight's tension, since he did forget about the "If you kill Piccolo you kill Kame too" detail initially, the Cell case can't be excused at all lol.

.

Ah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, it is a bit contrived for Goku being willing to just go with the idea he can kill Piccolo and bring Kami back with the dragon balls and then later pointing out it doesn't work like that. I'd chalk it up to Goku not thinking in the heat of battle like you said or making the deduction, somehow, after the battle was over and he had time to make the connection

[ZeroNeonix]

Toriyama: "I like the afterlife, there's a lot of hot babes there."
Also Toriyama: "Oh yeah, everybody becomes poofs of cloud after you die, but somehow Raditz managed to fight Enma Daio. Also, your body needs to be intact to be transferred to the other world."
Also Toriyama, again: "It's okay, guys. We can keep our bodies, even though they were completely obliterated, because it's a special service or something."
Also Toriyama, again again: "If you go to Hell, you'll go to some kind of purgatory, lose all of your memories and reincarnate as another living being."
Also Toriyama, again again again: "Dabra went to Heaven, because he would've found Hell too pleasant... But wasn't he supposed to lose his memories or something????? Or go to some kind of personal Hell like Freeza's???????"
Also Toriyama, again again again again: "There's several multiple different Hells, depending on the planet. So uh... Did anyone wonder what happens when said planet explodes??????"

And this is why I'm not taking any of the arguments above seriously.
I doubt Eastern Mythology had any bearing on how Toriyama wrote how Piccolo's children or his demonic powers worked before and/or after deciding he was an alien.

As I understand it, most of the inconsistencies regarding the afterlife are from filler, not from Toriyama himself. That entire arc between the Cell saga and Buu, with Goku taking place in that tournament with the champions of the Kais of the other quadrants, all of that was TOEI. It wasn't in the manga. Considering we haven't seen the King Kai's quadrant-based peers or the Grand Kai since, I doubt they're even canon. Goku and Pikkon teaming up to defeat Frieza and Cell in Hell? TOEI, not Toriyama. Dabura going to Heaven instead of Hell, because it was thought that Heaven would be a better torture for him? Funny, but not Toriyama. Unless I'm mistaken, we've never seen Toriyama's version of Hell until Resurrection F. It was explained that the only reason Frieza wasn't reincarnated by then was because he was too stubborn.

[Grimlock]

That being said, I wish fans had that much leniency with mostly-harmless non-Toriyama material.

Coddling Toriyama ensures you get to have some friends to talk to.

Considering we haven't seen the King Kai's quadrant-based peers or the Grand Kai since, I doubt they're even canon.

Not that there's a canon, mind you.

Dabura going to Heaven instead of Hell, because it was thought that Heaven would be a better torture for him? Funny, but not Toriyama.

It was explained that the only reason Frieza wasn't reincarnated by then was because he was too stubborn.

Do you happen to have a source for that?

[ZeroNeonix]

I believe Yemma says that when Goku sees him regarding having Frieza brought back to fight in the ToP. I'm having trouble finding the scene, though, because Google's search engine is absolute garbage now, and insists on giving me a bunch of stuff I didn't ask for. It's the same scene where he heavily implies that each planet has its own Hell, when he asks that Goku kill him on someone else's planet so that Frieza won't be his problem anymore.

[Cure Dragon 255]

That being said, I wish fans had that much leniency with mostly-harmless non-Toriyama material.

Coddling Toriyama ensures you get to have some friends to talk to.

Considering we haven't seen the King Kai's quadrant-based peers or the Grand Kai since, I doubt they're even canon.

Not that there's a canon, mind you.

Dabura going to Heaven instead of Hell, because it was thought that Heaven would be a better torture for him? Funny, but not Toriyama.

It was explained that the only reason Frieza wasn't reincarnated by then was because he was too stubborn.

Do you happen to have a source for that?

I thank you for FINALLY killing the "Dabura went to heaven is filler" misconception. I guess what is filler is that he became good and kind.

[AliTheZombie13]

As I understand it, most of the inconsistencies regarding the afterlife are from filler, not from Toriyama himself. That entire arc between the Cell saga and Buu, with Goku taking place in that tournament with the champions of the Kais of the other quadrants, all of that was TOEI. It wasn't in the manga. Considering we haven't seen the King Kai's quadrant-based peers or the Grand Kai since, I doubt they're even canon. Goku and Pikkon teaming up to defeat Frieza and Cell in Hell? TOEI, not Toriyama. Dabura going to Heaven instead of Hell, because it was thought that Heaven would be a better torture for him? Funny, but not Toriyama. Unless I'm mistaken, we've never seen Toriyama's version of Hell until Resurrection F. It was explained that the only reason Frieza wasn't reincarnated by then was because he was too stubborn.

Everything I just mentioned comes directly from the manga itself. Toriyama will tell you "You can't have your body in the afterlife" and then show you this 5 seconds later in the very same chapter (205):


The line about Dabra going to Heaven because he'd find Hell to be too pleasant is also from the manga.
Now, I'll play Devil's Advocate here and say that, before Super was conceptualized, Hell would've functioned similar to the Anime interpretation. But after Toriyama revealed in Super that there's a personal Disney-esque Hell for everybody where Dabra would almost surely be completely miserable in, the line makes absolutely zero sense.

[ZeroNeonix]

The line about Dabra going to Heaven because he'd find Hell to be too pleasant is also from the manga.
Now, I'll play Devil's Advocate here and say that, before Super was conceptualized, Hell would've functioned similar to the Anime interpretation. But after Toriyama revealed in Super that there's a personal Disney-esque Hell for everybody where Dabra would almost surely be completely miserable in, the line makes absolutely zero sense.

It's possible that Yemma just wasn't prepared for dealing with souls so comically evil. I imagine when Frieza first showed up, he probably had a more traditional personal Hell prepared for him. Like maybe he was meant to be made to feel the same kind of helpless terror as the people he killed, with an apparition of a Super Saiyan there to terrorize him, but Frieza quickly realized what was happening and was unaffected by the illusion. Later, Dabura shows up, and Yemma's like, "Well, the guy is literally a devil, so he'd feel right at home at Hell. Maybe we should send him to Heaven instead." After that, seeing that Frieza was still not being reformed, he has this lightbulb moment. Torture him with kindness. It's similar in function to Dabura's Heaven, but in the context of a personal Hell instead. ...It still doesn't work, but progress.

...Has Dabura been reincarnated? If the anime is to be believed, his experience successfully grants him a new perspective. But in media where he returns from the dead, he's always still evil, completely ignoring his change of heart.

[ZeroNeonix]

Something I still don't understand. Does King Kai have god ki? If not, why not? He is a god, isn't he? And if he does have god ki, how did Goku instant transmission Cell and himself to his planet? Goku wouldn't have been able to sense his ki then.

[AliTheZombie13]

Something I still don't understand. Does King Kai have god ki? If not, why not? He is a god, isn't he? And if he does have god ki, how did Goku instant transmission Cell and himself to his planet? Goku wouldn't have been able to sense his ki then.

Real-world answer: God Ki wasn't a thing until Super, or if you consider it, the Boo Saga. But Goku and other characters have been shown to use it to teleport to the Kaioshin Realm, so... *shrugs*

In-universe answer, purely my own theory: Beerus' Ki is so powerful that it created an identity of its own.