Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

I like the format, and for the most part agree with the numbers. I really have to do something similar some time. However, I disagree in some areas:

Disagreements

-Tarble at 180,000? That's insanely high for a weak reject. Nappa was born a high class saiyan and constantly fought in battles well into his late fifties... and yet he's dozens of times weaker than Tarble?

-There is no way Videl is anywhere near that high. Same goes for Spopovich, Yamu, and every other 'regular' human at the 25th. Yamcha and Goku at power levels of ten and approximately nine were performing feats that she could never dream of at the very beginning of Dragon Ball. For Kami's sake, she was almost killed by a single pistol bullet, while Goku at 10 was one-shotting bears and shrugging off bullets as small boo-boos. And don't tell me that's solely due to him being a saiyan, because Yamcha was able to somewhat hold his own against Goku even before his hunger drained his power, surviving hits from this monster that can shatter boulders with his bare hands. I estimate her at 6, 7 at the very best. Same thing with Mr. Satan, actually. Toriyama stated him to be weaker than a real life human, and you have him as strong as Pilaf arc Yamcha, who knocked Goku through several stone pillars with one punch.

-It seems weird that Tenshinhan gains so little from training with Kaio compared to what he gets training alone on Earth (actually, same thing with Chiaotzu and Yamcha). It also seems weird he gains so little power from training ten straight years from Buu to the tournament, when he got a x1.33 boost training from Cell to Buu.

-You think Trunks is a little high? In the anime, Kaio only says he's "perhaps" stronger than Goku, and in the manga Gohan initially mistakes his ki for Goku's, and states it's the same ki Goku had on Namek. It's possible he's talking about the feel, not the amount, but it still seems weird that he wouldn't instantly notice something was up if it was so much larger.

-I think you have Goku too close to Vegeta and Gohan in the Buu arc. Vegeta stated himself that the gap between them was pretty much the same as it was at the Cell Games. The gap you have between them here is relatively minor.

-There is no way the story makes an ounce of sense if Gotenks is weaker than not only Fat Buu, but SS2 Vegeta. Especially since Goku and Piccolo both indirectly state that SS Gotenks is the strongest warrior they have.

-Mr. Buu [not Good Buu, or Fat Buu] put up a fight against Pure Buu comparable to Goku. Why have him so weak?

-Goku stated he'd rather fuse with Mr. Satan than Dende, because "Dende's not a warrior". With this in mind, I highly doubt that Dende is superior to 99.9% of the fighters in the universe (and Mr. Satan).

-Goku one-shotted the bear bandit. I doubt he's anything special ki-wise, and especially not 75% of Goku, but of course, he's a fucking bear, so he has no shortage of physical strength.

-If Tao at the 23rd was THAT strong, why did Tenshinhan take him out so easily, with just one hit?

-Android 19 made Super Saiyan Vegeta bleed with a punch. He can't really be that much weaker in comparison, or Vegeta might not have even felt it.

Other comments:

-We both have the same power levels for Bardock. Neato.

-Kinda bothers me that there are no movie power levels besides BOG and the JSAT special. But then, you know my feelings about BOG.

-I like the organization. I might try that next time instead of diving it by arcs.

-I've been thinking that maybe Goten and Trunks gained little out of training in the ROSAT. After all, they were only there for two weeks. What say you? I notice you gave them a HUGE boost from that ROSAT training here, and in general have them very high.

-Is Fat Buu's full power what he fights Goku with, or when he's super pissed at the gunmen? If it's the former, where would this power up happen? Because he doesn't do that "get angry and blow steam" thing again until Mr. Satan gets shot.

-Any particular reason South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin are where they are?

-Babidi with a battle power of 50? Where does that come from?

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

Question about SSJ God, not the multiplier, but rather how strong was Goku in his base and SSJ form before and after absorbing the power?

[KentalSSJ6]

Question about SSJ God, not the multiplier, but rather how strong was Goku in his base and SSJ form before and after absorbing the power?

Well he was using 80% while he retained the form's appearance, Beerus says he kept most of it. Id say he dropped to 75-70% after absorbing it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well he was using 80% while he retained the form's appearance, Beerus says he kept most of it. Id say he dropped to 75-70% after absorbing it.

SS Goku gave Beerus a better fight than he did as a SSGod at 80%, plus, losing 30-35% of his power is a bid decrease, not an insignificant one.

[ZombieVito]

I like the format, and for the most part agree with the numbers. I really have to do something similar some time. However, I disagree in some areas:

Disagreements

-Tarble at 180,000? That's insanely high for a weak reject. Nappa was born a high class saiyan and constantly fought in battles well into his late fifties... and yet he's dozens of times weaker than Tarble?

-There is no way Videl is anywhere near that high. Same goes for Spopovich, Yamu, and every other 'regular' human at the 25th. Yamcha and Goku at power levels of ten and approximately nine were performing feats that she could never dream of at the very beginning of Dragon Ball. For Kami's sake, she was almost killed by a single pistol bullet, while Goku at 10 was one-shotting bears and shrugging off bullets as small boo-boos. And don't tell me that's solely due to him being a saiyan, because Yamcha was able to somewhat hold his own against Goku even before his hunger drained his power, surviving hits from this monster that can shatter boulders with his bare hands. I estimate her at 6, 7 at the very best. Same thing with Mr. Satan, actually. Toriyama stated him to be weaker than a real life human, and you have him as strong as Pilaf arc Yamcha, who knocked Goku through several stone pillars with one punch.

-It seems weird that Tenshinhan gains so little from training with Kaio compared to what he gets training alone on Earth (actually, same thing with Chiaotzu and Yamcha). It also seems weird he gains so little power from training ten straight years from Buu to the tournament, when he got a x1.33 boost training from Cell to Buu.

-You think Trunks is a little high? In the anime, Kaio only says he's "perhaps" stronger than Goku, and in the manga Gohan initially mistakes his ki for Goku's, and states it's the same ki Goku had on Namek. It's possible he's talking about the feel, not the amount, but it still seems weird that he wouldn't instantly notice something was up if it was so much larger.

-I think you have Goku too close to Vegeta and Gohan in the Buu arc. Vegeta stated himself that the gap between them was pretty much the same as it was at the Cell Games. The gap you have between them here is relatively minor.

-There is no way the story makes an ounce of sense if Gotenks is weaker than not only Fat Buu, but SS2 Vegeta. Especially since Goku and Piccolo both indirectly state that SS Gotenks is the strongest warrior they have.

-Mr. Buu [not Good Buu, or Fat Buu] put up a fight against Pure Buu comparable to Goku. Why have him so weak?

-Goku stated he'd rather fuse with Mr. Satan than Dende, because "Dende's not a warrior". With this in mind, I highly doubt that Dende is superior to 99.9% of the fighters in the universe (and Mr. Satan).

-Goku one-shotted the bear bandit. I doubt he's anything special ki-wise, and especially not 75% of Goku, but of course, he's a fucking bear, so he has no shortage of physical strength.

-If Tao at the 23rd was THAT strong, why did Tenshinhan take him out so easily, with just one hit?

-Android 19 made Super Saiyan Vegeta bleed with a punch. He can't really be that much weaker in comparison, or Vegeta might not have even felt it.

Other comments:

-We both have the same power levels for Bardock. Neato.

-Kinda bothers me that there are no movie power levels besides BOG and the JSAT special. But then, you know my feelings about BOG.

-I like the organization. I might try that next time instead of diving it by arcs.

-I've been thinking that maybe Goten and Trunks gained little out of training in the ROSAT. After all, they were only there for two weeks. What say you? I notice you gave them a HUGE boost from that ROSAT training here, and in general have them very high.

-Is Fat Buu's full power what he fights Goku with, or when he's super pissed at the gunmen? If it's the former, where would this power up happen? Because he doesn't do that "get angry and blow steam" thing again until Mr. Satan gets shot.

-Any particular reason South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin are where they are?

-Babidi with a battle power of 50? Where does that come from?

'
1.- I know he's "high" but planet Vegeta was destroyed 37 freaking years ago, I can see him getting that stronger (He is Vegeta's brother after all) but I could also drop a zero from him.

2.- I'm a firm believer that if someone trains their Ki, they will get stronger. You might be right about Mister Satan and Videl (pre).

3.- Tien gains a whooping x30 increase, Yamcha a 27 one and Chaoz a 24 one. Compare to their Earth training (less than 10), that's a lot. From Cell to Buu for Tien I'm just limited by Krillin > Tien. I'll rework their BP later.

4.- Well I don't use the anime for BP but yeah you are right Gohan does say that but I feel it meant the same tier Ki. Besides if I make him weaker his gap with Mecha Freeza is smaller. I could make Mecha weaker. Care to post your numbers for this?

5.- I tried to make him weaker but then he'll be to close to Dabura, which he thought he could beat easily.

6.- I'm just following Daizenshuu and Kaboom's logic here. Gotenks was useless until SSJ3. And yes SSJ Gotenks was the strongest they had, Vegeta was dead and Gohan was believed to be as well.

7.- Well as long as one has Buu stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta I don't think it really matters where you put him. That BP is just how he turned out tbh.

8.- Well he is a non fighter Namekian alright, the same non fighter Namekians that killed one of Freeza's soldiers who thought a BP of 1,000 was trash. Dende also got his potential unlocked. There's also Gohan inviting him to fight at the Budokai. IMO Dende is always underrated.

9.- Yep the Bear is just strong.

10.- Official BP =P, besides if my memory doesn't fail me Krillin and Yamcha were scared of him.

11.- how strong do you have him, 20, Piccolo and Vegeta?

12.-

13.- I really only focus on "canon" lists but I might do the movies later on.

14.- Thanks, it does look better and helps you remember minor fighters haha.

15.- Is it really huge? Vegeta increased by almost 3 times his BP when he first entered. The kids barely increased a 20%.

16.- Yeah it's when he fights SSJ3 Goku. I don't think Majin Buu got stronger after that. it was never noted. If he did that would be great.

17.- No, XD. The gods are really a toss up, we literally have no feats. We only know South and Dai were of worth to get absorbed by Pure Buu, I think this is a rare exception when I use the anime.

18.- Damn I meant 5!

[RandomGuy96]

I know he's "high" but planet Vegeta was destroyed 37 freaking years ago, I can see him getting that stronger (He is Vegeta's brother after all) but I could also drop a zero from him.

I think dropping a couple zeroes would be better. Yes, planet Vegeta was destroyed nearly forty years ago. But how many battles has Tarble fought in that time, if any? How significant was his power at birth? What we know points to "pretty much none" and "pitiful". Nappa, on the other hand, was much older than Tarble when he died, had fought in dozens of battles, and was born with a high power level as a member of the saiyan nobility.

3.- Tenshinhan gains a whooping x30 increase, Yamcha a 27 one and Chaoz a 24 one. Compare to their Earth training (less than 10), that's a lot. From Cell to Buu for Tenshinhan I'm just limited by Krillin > Tenshinhan. I'll rework their BP later.

I see. I was talking more about raw power; as in, he gets hundreds of thousands of battle power points just from MOUNTAIN TRAINING for three years, but seven more years of MOUNTAIN TRAINING gets him very little, and then ten more years of MOUNTAIN TRAINING on top of that gives him next to nothing.

4.- Well I don't use the anime for BP but yeah you are right Gohan does say that but I feel it meant the same tier Ki. Besides if I make him weaker his gap with Mecha Freeza is smaller. I could make Mecha weaker. Care to post your numbers for this?

You think 220 and 150 are in the same tier? The former could probably take out the latter with just a few hits.

Trunks: 160

Freeza [base power at time of death): 100
Freeza [hypothetical full power]: 150

I assume you think Freeza was at full power when he was killed? Even if that were the case, I think just 180 or so for Trunks is fine. He did catch Freeza off guard with a cutting attack to the face, after all. But I'm skeptical that he was at full power, as nothing like that was noted, and he didn't bulk up or give any signs of powering up to 100%.

5.- I tried to make him weaker but then he'll be to close to Dabura, which he thought he could beat easily.

I think last time I made a list, I had my numbers for these guys like this:

SS2 Vegeta: 6 billion
SS2 Gohan: 5.6 billion
Dabra: 5 billion

Dabra should be a good bit weaker than Gohan, with Vegeta being at least somewhat stronger. Add on the huge skill advantage Vegeta has over Gohan, and it's not surprising he can succeed where Gohan failed. Though I don't remember where Vegeta says he can easily crush Dabra; if anything, he implies the opposite, by only saying that they can "manage something" against him.

6.- I'm just following Daizenshuu and Kaboom's logic here. Gotenks was useless until SSJ3. And yes SSJ Gotenks was the strongest they had, Vegeta was dead and Gohan was believed to be as well.

That logic doesn't really hold up, I imagine you know why.

Piccolo said "You were really incredible... not even Gotenks there could defeat you". Why is he saying this if a weaker form of the person he's talking to was already stronger than someone (as far as he knew) who was stronger than Gotenks?

7.- Well as long as one has Buu stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta I don't think it really matters where you put him. That BP is just how he turned out tbh.

It kinda does. Mr. Buu [not Good Buu/Fat Buu] has literally one fight from where you can gauge his strength. It depicts him as low SS3-tier.

8.- Well he is a non fighter Namekian alright, the same non fighter Namekians that killed one of Freeza's soldiers who thought a BP of 1,000 was trash. Dende also got his potential unlocked. There's also Gohan inviting him to fight at the Budokai. IMO Dende is always underrated.

So why wouldn't Goku want to merge with him if he's hundreds of times stronger than Mr. Satan? Saying "Dende's not a fighter" and then refusing to fuse with him in favor of a regular human is pretty much Goku saying Dende is weaksauce.

10.- Official BP =P, besides if my memory doesn't fail me Krillin and Yamcha were scared of him.

Well, if you wanna get technical, it only appeared in Weekly Jump, not any official guidebook. In fact, it seems that the creators of the guidebooks went out of their way to not reprint this number, alongside other questionable numbers from there like Kami's 220 and Roshi's 180.

I don't remember Krillin or Yamcha fearing facing him. And even if they did, neither of them seem to be able to sense ki at the moment, and I doubt Tenshinhan can simply one-hit-KO Krillin without trying.

11.- how strong do you have him, 20, Piccolo and Vegeta?

Last time I made a list:

Piccolo: 160
SS Vegeta: 250

19: 80
+Goku's ki: 185
20: 95
+Yamcha's ki: 97
+Piccolo's ki: 101
+Vegeta's ki: 106

15.- Is it really huge? Vegeta increased by almost 3 times his BP when he first entered. The kids barely increased a 20%.

Keep in mind that Vegeta was in there for like a year, while the boys were in there for two weeks.

16.- Yeah it's when he fights SSJ3 Goku. I don't think Majin Buu got stronger after that. it was never noted. If he did that would be great.

I assume he did, since he shows all the signs without an outright statement (gets mad, steam comes from his head, the narrator describes a power "swelling up" inside him). If you think that you need a statement as proof for him to have gotten stronger, then he never would have surpassed the level he fought Vegeta at.

[Kid Buu]

I don't remember Krillin or Yamcha fearing facing him. And even if they did, neither of them seem to be able to sense ki at the moment, and I doubt Tenshinhan can simply one-hit-KO Krillin without trying.

Actually, Yamcha makes a comment on Ki here.

That being said, I don't remember them fearing Tao at all. In fact, in the TV Series, they even want to fight Tao themselves.

[Ultimate_Nova_X]

It's clear that Goku got stronger in the time while fighting Birusu. Even if he did not absorb 100% of God's power he was still stronger after "losing it" than when he was in that form simply because he got stronger as a Saiyajin while fighting.

Or something like that.

[ZombieVito]

I know he's "high" but planet Vegeta was destroyed 37 freaking years ago, I can see him getting that stronger (He is Vegeta's brother after all) but I could also drop a zero from him.

I think dropping a couple zeroes would be better. Yes, planet Vegeta was destroyed nearly forty years ago. But how many battles has Tarble fought in that time, if any? How significant was his power at birth? What we know points to "pretty much none" and "pitiful". Nappa, on the other hand, was much older than Tarble when he died, had fought in dozens of battles, and was born with a high power level as a member of the saiyan nobility.

3.- Tenshinhan gains a whooping x30 increase, Yamcha a 27 one and Chaoz a 24 one. Compare to their Earth training (less than 10), that's a lot. From Cell to Buu for Tenshinhan I'm just limited by Krillin > Tenshinhan. I'll rework their BP later.

I see. I was talking more about raw power; as in, he gets hundreds of thousands of battle power points just from MOUNTAIN TRAINING for three years, but seven more years of MOUNTAIN TRAINING gets him very little, and then ten more years of MOUNTAIN TRAINING on top of that gives him next to nothing.

4.- Well I don't use the anime for BP but yeah you are right Gohan does say that but I feel it meant the same tier Ki. Besides if I make him weaker his gap with Mecha Freeza is smaller. I could make Mecha weaker. Care to post your numbers for this?

You think 220 and 150 are in the same tier? The former could probably take out the latter with just a few hits.

Trunks: 160

Freeza [base power at time of death): 100
Freeza [hypothetical full power]: 150

I assume you think Freeza was at full power when he was killed? Even if that were the case, I think just 180 or so for Trunks is fine. He did catch Freeza off guard with a cutting attack to the face, after all. But I'm skeptical that he was at full power, as nothing like that was noted, and he didn't bulk up or give any signs of powering up to 100%.

5.- I tried to make him weaker but then he'll be to close to Dabura, which he thought he could beat easily.

I think last time I made a list, I had my numbers for these guys like this:

SS2 Vegeta: 6 billion
SS2 Gohan: 5.6 billion
Dabra: 5 billion

Dabra should be a good bit weaker than Gohan, with Vegeta being at least somewhat stronger. Add on the huge skill advantage Vegeta has over Gohan, and it's not surprising he can succeed where Gohan failed. Though I don't remember where Vegeta says he can easily crush Dabra; if anything, he implies the opposite, by only saying that they can "manage something" against him.

6.- I'm just following Daizenshuu and Kaboom's logic here. Gotenks was useless until SSJ3. And yes SSJ Gotenks was the strongest they had, Vegeta was dead and Gohan was believed to be as well.

That logic doesn't really hold up, I imagine you know why.

Piccolo said "You were really incredible... not even Gotenks there could defeat you". Why is he saying this if a weaker form of the person he's talking to was already stronger than someone (as far as he knew) who was stronger than Gotenks?

7.- Well as long as one has Buu stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta I don't think it really matters where you put him. That BP is just how he turned out tbh.

It kinda does. Mr. Buu [not Good Buu/Fat Buu] has literally one fight from where you can gauge his strength. It depicts him as low SS3-tier.

8.- Well he is a non fighter Namekian alright, the same non fighter Namekians that killed one of Freeza's soldiers who thought a BP of 1,000 was trash. Dende also got his potential unlocked. There's also Gohan inviting him to fight at the Budokai. IMO Dende is always underrated.

So why wouldn't Goku want to merge with him if he's hundreds of times stronger than Mr. Satan? Saying "Dende's not a fighter" and then refusing to fuse with him in favor of a regular human is pretty much Goku saying Dende is weaksauce.

10.- Official BP =P, besides if my memory doesn't fail me Krillin and Yamcha were scared of him.

Well, if you wanna get technical, it only appeared in Weekly Jump, not any official guidebook. In fact, it seems that the creators of the guidebooks went out of their way to not reprint this number, alongside other questionable numbers from there like Kami's 220 and Roshi's 180.

I don't remember Krillin or Yamcha fearing facing him. And even if they did, neither of them seem to be able to sense ki at the moment, and I doubt Tenshinhan can simply one-hit-KO Krillin without trying.

11.- how strong do you have him, 20, Piccolo and Vegeta?

Last time I made a list:

Piccolo: 160
SS Vegeta: 250

19: 80
+Goku's ki: 185
20: 95
+Yamcha's ki: 97
+Piccolo's ki: 101
+Vegeta's ki: 106

15.- Is it really huge? Vegeta increased by almost 3 times his BP when he first entered. The kids barely increased a 20%.

Keep in mind that Vegeta was in there for like a year, while the boys were in there for two weeks.

16.- Yeah it's when he fights SSJ3 Goku. I don't think Majin Buu got stronger after that. it was never noted. If he did that would be great.

I assume he did, since he shows all the signs without an outright statement (gets mad, steam comes from his head, the narrator describes a power "swelling up" inside him). If you think that you need a statement as proof for him to have gotten stronger, then he never would have surpassed the level he fought Vegeta at.

1.- That's the thing isn't it? We don't know if he trained or battled with many (or any) powerful foes. I'm also having a hard time believing a Nappa tier character surviving a battle with a first form Freeza opponent.

3.- After thinking about it, this made me realize the humans never reached Freeza's first form.

4.- ?? I have Trunks at 170m, not 220m.

5.- Dabura that weaker than Gohan?

7/16.- Well if Buu did powered up then it will make Mr.Buu stronger. I will definitely consider it when I do updates to this list.

8.- Well that's really a good point. I'm definitely going to make him a bit weaker but still 1000+

10.- Conflicted about this to be honest but I'll continue to use them for now (that 180 for Roshi could be is buff form and that 220 for Kami can be for the Saiyan arc). I'll maybe boost Tien to 245.

11.- 19 stronger than Gero and Piccolo? I always thought it was implied he wasn't.

15.- Yeah I know but these kids are incredible, they managed to go SSJ like it was nothing and they are half breeds with more potential. Just look how much Gohan gained in one trip and part of it was just learning how to go SSJ.

[RandomGuy96]

1.- That's the thing isn't it? We don't know if he trained or battled with many (or any) powerful foes. I'm also having a hard time believing a Nappa tier character surviving a battle with a first form Freeza opponent.

Since he was specifically rejected for not having a desire to fight (and being weak?), I doubt he did. Nappa was one of the top ten strongest warriors the saiyans had. He was born with a high battle power and spent the entirety of his ~55 year long life fighting. Why would Tarble, who was rejected and considered a disgrace, even come near his level, much less surpass it by far?

Yet you have no problem with a Freeza-tier opponent surviving Fat Buu? I don't think surviving is really an impressive feat- especially since, if Abo or Cado were going seriously, then they would have one-shotted Tarble before he could react regardless of whether he was 180,000 or 1,800.

3.- After thinking about it, this made me realize the humans never reached Freeza's first form.

Well, some of the android arc feats and statements seem to imply them being on the base saiyans' level. It's not a lot, but it's all we really have on the humans after Freeza, so take it as you will.

4.- ?? I have Trunks at 170m, not 220m.

...right. Forgive me, I must have scrolled through Gohan's section too fast, because I mistook Gohan's android arc level for Future Gohan's Super Saiyan level (I thought it said 210 million), which also made me think Trunks was at that level and the 170 was a typo.

Disregard my previous comment.

5.- Dabura that weaker than Gohan?

I don't think it's that much. We saw very little of their fight; just Gohan punching Dabra once, then Dabra spamming magic, and landing one hit by tricking Gohan with an illusion. But Gohan seems to have the advantage hand to hand, the Dragon Books say Dabra was "clearly inferior", and Gohan was able to catch and break Dabra's sword, so I think a decent sized gap is warranted.

7/16.- Well if Buu did powered up then it will make Mr.Buu stronger. I will definitely consider it when I do updates to this list.

Buu doesn't need to have powered up for that, since Mr. Buu =/= Good Buu, just as Pure Buu =/= Evil Buu.

10.- Conflicted about this to be honest but I'll continue to use them for now (that 180 for Roshi could be is buff form and that 220 for Kami can be for the Saiyan arc). I'll maybe boost Tenshinhan to 245.

The image doesn't depict his buff form, so clearly it's not that. Plus, he never uses the buff form at any time in the 22nd Budokai. The same page also has Karin stronger than 22nd Budokai Goku, when the opposite is outright stated in the manga. Again, I think some of these numbers weren't reprinted for a reason.

Is it possible that the image just refers to Old Daimao? It'd make sense given that it's in the row consisting of villains, and is right next to two other versions of Piccolo Daimao. I doubt it, but that's the only way I could make sense of it. I don't see any reason for Kami to just randomly get THAT much weaker in a few years.

Hell, he'd have to actually drop from 250+ to 220 in one year for that level to work, as it was implied Kami was superior to every human prior their training.

Well that's really a good point. I'm definitely going to make him a bit weaker but still 1000+

Has he actually done anything to prove himself stronger than Mr. Satan, much less stronger than Piccolo Daimao? As far as I know, the comment from Goku on how Dende isn't a fighter and how it would be better to merge with Mr. Satan is all we get.

11.- 19 stronger than Gero and Piccolo? I always thought it was implied he wasn't.

I don't remember anything implying 20 was stronger than 19 after they both absorbed energy (20 base > 19 base, though). 19 was actually able to make Vegeta bleed while 20 had no feat even close to that. Also, it probably doesn't mean anything, but 19 was taken down by Vegeta, while 20 was reserved for the much weaker Piccolo, who crushed him like nothing.

15.- Yeah I know but these kids are incredible, they managed to go SSJ like it was nothing and they are half breeds with more potential. Just look how much Gohan gained in one trip and part of it was just learning how to go SSJ.

Again, Gohan was in there for a lot longer than two weeks. These kids have been play fighting for their lives (which explains their strength, along with genetics) and each trained about a month for the tournament. So why does training in the ROSAT for a mere two weeks suddenly shoot up their powers so drastically?

Random: where did you get the pictures?

[dbgtFO]

Random: where did you get the pictures?

They are from Daizenshuu 7's "Human Racial Dictionary," which Kanzentai had up on their site with accompanying Pictures.
It can be found here using the wayback machine: http://web.archive.org/web/201110110353 ... acter#link

[ZombieVito]

1.- That's the thing isn't it? We don't know if he trained or battled with many (or any) powerful foes. I'm also having a hard time believing a Nappa tier character surviving a battle with a first form Freeza opponent.

Since he was specifically rejected for not having a desire to fight (and being weak?), I doubt he did. Nappa was one of the top ten strongest warriors the saiyans had. He was born with a high battle power and spent the entirety of his ~55 year long life fighting. Why would Tarble, who was rejected and considered a disgrace, even come near his level, much less surpass it by far?

Yet you have no problem with a Freeza-tier opponent surviving Fat Buu? I don't think surviving is really an impressive feat- especially since, if Abo or Cado were going seriously, then they would have one-shotted Tarble before he could react regardless of whether he was 180,000 or 1,800.

3.- After thinking about it, this made me realize the humans never reached Freeza's first form.

Well, some of the android arc feats and statements seem to imply them being on the base saiyans' level. It's not a lot, but it's all we really have on the humans after Freeza, so take it as you will.

4.- ?? I have Trunks at 170m, not 220m.

...right. Forgive me, I must have scrolled through Gohan's section too fast, because I mistook Gohan's android arc level for Future Gohan's Super Saiyan level (I thought it said 210 million), which also made me think Trunks was at that level and the 170 was a typo.

Disregard my previous comment.

5.- Dabura that weaker than Gohan?

I don't think it's that much. We saw very little of their fight; just Gohan punching Dabra once, then Dabra spamming magic, and landing one hit by tricking Gohan with an illusion. But Gohan seems to have the advantage hand to hand, the Dragon Books say Dabra was "clearly inferior", and Gohan was able to catch and break Dabra's sword, so I think a decent sized gap is warranted.

7/16.- Well if Buu did powered up then it will make Mr.Buu stronger. I will definitely consider it when I do updates to this list.

Buu doesn't need to have powered up for that, since Mr. Buu =/= Good Buu, just as Pure Buu =/= Evil Buu.

10.- Conflicted about this to be honest but I'll continue to use them for now (that 180 for Roshi could be is buff form and that 220 for Kami can be for the Saiyan arc). I'll maybe boost Tenshinhan to 245.

The image doesn't depict his buff form, so clearly it's not that. Plus, he never uses the buff form at any time in the 22nd Budokai. The same page also has Karin stronger than 22nd Budokai Goku, when the opposite is outright stated in the manga. Again, I think some of these numbers weren't reprinted for a reason.

Is it possible that the image just refers to Old Daimao? It'd make sense given that it's in the row consisting of villains, and is right next to two other versions of Piccolo Daimao. I doubt it, but that's the only way I could make sense of it. I don't see any reason for Kami to just randomly get THAT much weaker in a few years.

Hell, he'd have to actually drop from 250+ to 220 in one year for that level to work, as it was implied Kami was superior to every human prior their training.

Well that's really a good point. I'm definitely going to make him a bit weaker but still 1000+

Has he actually done anything to prove himself stronger than Mr. Satan, much less stronger than Piccolo Daimao? As far as I know, the comment from Goku on how Dende isn't a fighter and how it would be better to merge with Mr. Satan is all we get.

11.- 19 stronger than Gero and Piccolo? I always thought it was implied he wasn't.

I don't remember anything implying 20 was stronger than 19 after they both absorbed energy (20 base > 19 base, though). 19 was actually able to make Vegeta bleed while 20 had no feat even close to that. Also, it probably doesn't mean anything, but 19 was taken down by Vegeta, while 20 was reserved for the much weaker Piccolo, who crushed him like nothing.

15.- Yeah I know but these kids are incredible, they managed to go SSJ like it was nothing and they are half breeds with more potential. Just look how much Gohan gained in one trip and part of it was just learning how to go SSJ.

Again, Gohan was in there for a lot longer than two weeks. These kids have been play fighting for their lives (which explains their strength, along with genetics) and each trained about a month for the tournament. So why does training in the ROSAT for a mere two weeks suddenly shoot up their powers so drastically?

Random: where did you get the pictures?

1.- Ok, 1,800 it is.

3.- Really? I don't remember they where ever compared to base Saiyans. Are you talking when 19 and 20 mistook Yamcha for Goku?

4.- NP.

5.- Well great. I'll make him 6,800,000,000 and Vegeta 75,000,000

7.- I disagree there, the same Good Buu is Mr.Buu. Still I decided to have Majin Buu's power increase when he was about to split to increase Mr.Buu.

Majin Buu (before splitting): 50

Mr.Buu = 18
Evill Buu = 32
Pure Buu = 36
Super Buu = 100 (Mr.Buu + Evil Buu x 2, same formula goes for Buff Buu)

10.- mmm I guess I could only use the guidebooks, damn I hate doing PL from the DB era. At what BP do you have ciber Tao?

11.- I'll make him 180,000,000, is that better?

15.- Training gains shouldn't and are not consistent, just look at Piccolo at Kaiosama. Just days there and he gained at least 10 times is BP.

[dbgtFO]

1.- Ok, 1,800 it is.

I too have Tarble at 1,800. It just looks good to have him at 10% of Vegeta's Saiyan Arc level.

[RandomGuy96]

3.- Really? I don't remember they where ever compared to base Saiyans. Are you talking when 19 and 20 mistook Yamcha for Goku?

No, but that's also something to bring up (Gero isn't super surprised by base Goku's actual power, suggesting it isn't hundreds of times greater than Yamcha's). I was speaking more of the following:

-Tenshinhan dodges Gero's eye beams, along with base Goku.
-Ten, Krillin, and Yamcha are all able to keep up with sick base Goku, as Goku struggles to fly at that speed (drawing attention from Piccolo).
-Gero considered Yamcha's energy to be a significant amount, and explicitly says he adds other fighters' energy to his own, suggesting Yamcha, the second weakest human, at least has enough energy in him to be worth something.
-Gero said something similar when he speculated that absorbing the energy of suppressed Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, and Tenshinhan would help him against Vegeta.
-Tenshinhan doesn't consider Goku to be "in a completely different dimension from us" until he transforms into a Super Saiyan, which Tenshinhan considers "...too different...".

5.- Well great. I'll make him 6,800,000,000 and Vegeta 75,000,000

Hmmm... I still think that seems a little small, as Gohan was able to catch and break Dabra's sword.

7.- I disagree there, the same Good Buu is Mr.Buu. Still I decided to have Majin Buu's power increase when he was about to split to increase Mr.Buu.

If Mr. Buu = Good Buu, shouldn't Evil Buu = Pure Buu?

Good Buu + Evil Buu = Super Buu

Super Buu - Mr. Buu = Pure Buu

But Pure Buu =/= Evil Buu, therefore Good Buu =/= Mr. Buu. Which would explain some of these feats, like Mr. Buu putting up a fight against Pure Buu.

10.- mmm I guess I could only use the guidebooks, damn I hate doing PL from the DB era. At what BP do you have ciber Tao?

Regular Tao: 60
Cyborg Tao: 150

Tenshinhan: 230
Krillin: 195
Yamcha: 165

The 23rd Budokai confuses me a lot. A lot more things would make sense if what we got at the beginning of DBZ were suppressed numbers, as otherwise the gaps depicted both here and in the Piccolo Daimao arc (including the outright stated "I'm not even putting out half my power") don't fit with such tiny numbers. Which may be why V-Jump listed 23rd Budokai Goku at 924. I mean, even assuming 416 was Goku's true power, Tenshinhan's ability to go toe to toe with weighted Goku suggests he should be stronger than 250. If he were, that would make his comment on Daimao, and Crane Hermit's confidence in Cyborg Tao, both make sense.

Also, Chappa should be stronger than regular Tao, as everyone thought he'd be a terrifying and challenging opponent to Goku at the 22nd, even though Goku far surpassed Tao in the RRA arc and had trained since then. It must have been pretty good training, too, since Tambourine murdered Chappa and was himself crushed by 22nd Budokai Goku at full power.

11.- I'll make him 180,000,000, is that better?

Well, to give an example on your list, you have Cell at 1.4 billion while fighting Vegeta, who you have at 1.15 billion. Cell is about 20% stronger than Vegeta. Vegeta kicks Cell in the neck, and Cell doesn't even feel it. To give another example, you have Semi-Cell listed as 750 million to Android 16's 520 million. Cell is a little less than 50% stronger; 16 punches him in the face and he barely feels it as well. He certainly doesn't suffer damage and bleed. Truthfully, I'd say 19 is more ~200 million, going by how strong you have Vegeta.

I know focusing on exact percentage gaps between characters isn't always what fights boil down to, but in a pure, simple showing of offense vs defense, where one character sits there and takes a direct hit from his opponent, it seems that the difference between their powers should really be the main determining factor. The gap between SS Vegeta and (who you have at 270 million) and post-energy Android 19 (who you have at 180 million) should be smaller than gap between Cell/16, though you have that difference much smaller than this one.

Oh, that reminds me: the difference between Cell and Vegeta should be larger. It was a full force kick to a vital area for an opponent that was not defending himself or even assuming a fighting stance... and it did nothing. By contrast, even Semi-Cell was able to make Vegeta bleed with a simple punch, and you have the gap between Vegeta and Semi-Cell basically the same size as the gap between Perfect Cell and Vegeta, even after Semi-Cell powers up. Heck, Semi-Perfect Cell's gap is LARGER. On that note, Semi-Cell himself seems too strong; you'd think that if he were as close to Vegeta as Freeza was to Goku, he'd be able to do something besides get beaten up.

15.- Training gains shouldn't and are not consistent, just look at Piccolo at Kaiosama. Just days there and he gained at least 10 times is BP.

In that case, there is a reason to believe he got that strong. What, besides one gag, supports Goten and Trunks getting so much stronger in two weeks?

They are from Daizenshuu 7's "Human Racial Dictionary," which Kanzentai had up on their site with accompanying Pictures.
It can be found here using the wayback machine: http://web.archive.org/web/201110110353 ... acter#link

Ah, thank you. I do wonder why Kanzenshuu doesn't have translations of this and many other things up, though.

EDIT: So this is in Tambourine's Daizenshuu 7 biography:

"As a Demon Clansman made to battle, his battle power is many times greater than Cymbal's"

What does this imply? That those "many times stronger" and "half as strong" etc. statements made by Piccolo throughout this arc and the next were genuinely referring to battle power? That Yajirobe was actually way weaker than he looked, and Goku was holding back for some bizarre reason...?

[Saiga]

Gero shouldn't have seen Goku's actual base power though, as Goku is just in his relaxed state before going Super Saiyan.

[RandomGuy96]

Gero shouldn't have seen Goku's actual base power though, as Goku is just in his relaxed state before going Super Saiyan.

I doubt he was "relaxed" when he lunged out and punched Gero in the face, or when he jumped out of the way of Gero's eye beams with a panicked expression.

[Saiga]

Gero shouldn't have seen Goku's actual base power though, as Goku is just in his relaxed state before going Super Saiyan.

I doubt he was "relaxed" when he lunged out and punched Gero in the face, or when he jumped out of the way of Gero's eye beams with a panicked expression.

I doubt he'd need any of his power to dodge what Ten can, and in either event the scouters couldn't pick up his power increases at all while fighting the Ginyu so I doubt Gero can either.

edit: Ki sensing also couldn't detect the changes.

[RandomGuy96]

Gero shouldn't have seen Goku's actual base power though, as Goku is just in his relaxed state before going Super Saiyan.

I doubt he was "relaxed" when he lunged out and punched Gero in the face, or when he jumped out of the way of Gero's eye beams with a panicked expression.

I doubt he'd need any of his power to dodge what Ten can, and in either event the scouters couldn't pick up his power increases at all while fighting the Ginyu so I doubt Gero can either.

edit: Ki sensing also couldn't detect the changes.

He clearly looked worried while dodging and punching (his punch made a fully aware Gero budge and take a step back by the way), so I doubt he was just taking it easy, totally relaxed, not using more than a fraction of his power. There's no statement for him being suppressed, either, and if anything the opposite would be true since he was preparing to fight and had just been straining himself while flying.

That's circular reasoning: "Tenshinhan could dodge the beam but that doesn't mean anything because Goku wasn't at full power, and Goku wasn't at full power because Tenshinhan could dodge the beam".

[Saiga]

He clearly looked worried while dodging and punching (his punch made a fully aware Gero budge and take a step back by the way), so I doubt he was just taking it easy, totally relaxed, not using more than a fraction of his power. There's no statement for him being suppressed, either, and if anything the opposite would be true since he was preparing to fight and had just been straining himself while flying.

That's circular reasoning: "Tenshinhan could dodge the beam but that doesn't mean anything because Goku wasn't at full power, and Goku wasn't at full power because Tenshinhan could dodge the beam".

An expression in a single panel is a terrible judge of what Goku is doing right now, and suppression doesn't mean taking things easy either (we've seen characters struggle while suppressed, like Freeza or Cell). Again, even if he wasn't suppressed while doing those, both actions are very brief which would mean Gero shouldn't pick them up. Going off Vegeta's comments on the Ginyu battle and Kaioshin's comments in the Boo arc (plus things like the JSAT if you're so inclined) or even Piccolo's comments later that arc, Goku should always be in a suppressed state by default.

It's not circular reasoning because that's not the argument I was using - I'm saying that Goku probably didn't use his full power because it was something Ten could dodge, and as such Gero probably didn't see Goku's full power. Nothing about Goku not using his full power proving Ten dodging it is meaningless.

[RandomGuy96]

He clearly looked worried while dodging and punching (his punch made a fully aware Gero budge and take a step back by the way), so I doubt he was just taking it easy, totally relaxed, not using more than a fraction of his power. There's no statement for him being suppressed, either, and if anything the opposite would be true since he was preparing to fight and had just been straining himself while flying.

That's circular reasoning: "Tenshinhan could dodge the beam but that doesn't mean anything because Goku wasn't at full power, and Goku wasn't at full power because Tenshinhan could dodge the beam".

An expression in a single panel is a terrible judge of what Goku is doing right now, and suppression doesn't mean taking things easy either (we've seen characters struggle while suppressed, like Freeza or Cell). Again, even if he wasn't suppressed while doing those, both actions are very brief which would mean Gero shouldn't pick them up. Going off Vegeta's comments on the Ginyu battle and Kaioshin's comments in the Boo arc (plus things like the JSAT if you're so inclined) or even Piccolo's comments later that arc, Goku should always be in a suppressed state by default.

It's not circular reasoning because that's not the argument I was using - I'm saying that Goku probably didn't use his full power because it was something Ten could dodge, and as such Gero probably didn't see Goku's full power. Nothing about Goku not using his full power proving Ten dodging it is meaningless.

Not really, when it's the only way we can judge it.

Why? He was about to fight Gero, what reason would he have to keep suppressing himself? When dodging, for instance, he has no reason to keep suppressing his power and fake worry when he can easily just dodge it without any effort.

I said that Ten dodging it was a feat in his favor. You said it wasn't, because Goku wasn't using his full power to dodge it. The proof you gave of this is that Tenshinhan could dodge it. Which is circular reasoning.