Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kamiccolo9]

Yeah, but with that small of a difference, Chiaotzu should have been able to use his psychic powers just like he did against Goku.

Would it work on Taopaipai? He was one of his masters after all.

I don't see why it wouldn't. It was supposedly going to work on Tenshinhan, after all, and he knew what Chiaotzu was capable of as well as anyone.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think that Taopaipai would know how to counter it. Maybe Taopaipai was fast enough to hit him before Chaozu got the chance of making a move, or he tricked him with math like Kuririn, or he is is knowledgeable enough about physic techniques to break them. He is an experienced fighter, he has the advantage in skill, power, speed, intelligence, etc, and he knows how Chaozu fights, so I doubt he would fall to that.

EDIT: I forgot to add Chichi in the Hunt of the DBs arc, so she is there now.

[RandomGuy96]

Out of curiosity, where does everyone put Goku in base during the Buu saga? I'd say a flat 100 million seems accurate enough.

I'm still trying to decide between 75 and 80 million.

With all the back-and-forth power leapfrogging during the Androids and Cell arc, I find it difficult for Goku to end up any lower than that, since ideally I'd like him to be around 50 or 60 million during the Boo arc instead.

That's actually completely possible if you ignore the Daizenshuu statement about Gohan's rage boosts. For example:

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t197 ... inimalist/

It being the only way doesn't make it any better, though. Regardless of not having anything else to go off, it just doesn't work by itself.

Because again, he suppresses himself even while fighting to conserve energy. He kept dropping down to 5,000 while fighting people far above that. Once again the expression can't be used for crap.

No, that's not it. I was not replying to that part, I was replying to the part about Gero not being surprised by Goku's base power. Only that part.

If you don't think it works, we still have other things to go off of. By the way, by this logic Yamcha should have been suppressed too.

I doubt fighting at full power uses much energy, considering that this is the default for every person in the universe except a handful. And yes, an expression can be used in the absence of any other evidence.

Okay, gotcha. I do think Ten dodging that beam alongside a worried looking base Goku is a pretty telling feat, though, along with Ten, Yamcha, and Krillin easily keeping up a speed that caused sick base Goku to strain himself (note that Goku was impressed that Vegeta so easily kept up with his travel speed in the Saiyan arc while they were flying to the mountains to fight).

[Kid Buu]

How strong do you have Gero compared to the Freeza that killed Vegeta, Random?

[RandomGuy96]

How strong do you have Gero compared to the Freeza that killed Vegeta, Random?

I had Gero at 95 million last I checked. I recognize that many of his feats portray him as extremely weak relative to the Super Saiyans (getting budged by base Goku, his eye beams being dodged by base Goku, base saiyan-tier powers being stated as considerable additions to his own, etc.), really not even twice as strong as the base saiyans, e.g. if base Goku was 4 million, he'd be 6 million, and Ten would be 2.4 million (so there'd be less of a gap between him and Ten than there was between Piccolo and 3% Freeza, as the former couldn't even see the latter's finger beam). But there are also implications that he's ridiculously strong, like Piccolo mistaking him and 19 for the androids that could crush Trunks, 19 withstanding blows from a Goku implied to be superior to SS Trunks from the Mecha arc, Gero surprising SS Vegeta with his speed, etc.

So I just "compromise" and take the middle road by putting him at way stronger than the base saiyans but nowhere near any of the Super Saiyans (except flashback only characters, like future Gohan pre-maiming, Trunks before Gohan's death, and Bardock on planet plant). I like it better that way.

[Kid Buu]

so there'd be less of a gap between him and Ten than there was between Piccolo and 3% Freeza, as the former couldn't even see the latter's finger beam

Yeah, this was what I was going to mention.

Toriyama initially wanted Android #20 to be the main villain, but due to his former editor not liking them, he brought in #17 and #18. I get the feeling that Toriyama retconned #20's strength, hence why it seems rather inconsistent on how strong he is. Another instance where I think Toriyama retconned a characters strength is Yajirobe in the Daimao arc, which explains why his strength seems all over the place.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Now for the Saiyan arc:

Spoiler:

Son Goku - 416
Piccolo - 408
Son Gohan - 1

• Enraged - 1.307
  Oozaru - 13.070

Kuririn - 206
Yamcha - 177
Tenshinhan - 250
Chaozu - 155
Raditz - 1.250
Enma Daio - 2.000
Kaio - 3.500

Spoiler:

Son Goku - 8.052

• Kaio-ken - over 16.104
  Kaio-ken x3 - over 24.156
  Kaio-ken x4 - over 32.208

Son Gohan - 981

• Enraged - 1.400
  Oozaru - 14.000

Piccolo - 3.500
Kuririn - 1.770
Tenshinhan - 1.830
Yamcha - 1.480
Chaozu - 610
Yajirobe - 970
Kami - 220
Mr. Popo - 1.030
Vegeta - 18.000

• Oozaru - 180.000

Nappa - 7.900
Saibaimen - 1.200

[ZombieVito]

It's really a good list but I'm curious why many people have 21st Goku at the 80's or 90's. I'm currently going with 50, gives me more breathing room later on.

Because I want to keep Kame-sennin's growth smaller. He is an old, and very experienced martial artist, he shouldn't have room to make huge jumps in power.

Well I don't think this works with Goku being at 135 and Roshi 139.

Kame-sennin (Jacky Chun) [#22T#KAM]
Chapter: 113, P14.1-2
Goku: “I hope I beat you this time--!”
Jackie Chun: “Ho ho ho! It seems you’ve trained even more, eh? This will be fun.”
Jackie Chun (thinking): “You’ve got to be kidding. I’m Muten Roshi; I can’t lose no matter what. I’ve been training in secret myself!”

Unless Roshi thought Goku only increased his power by 2-3% in 3 years.

[Kaboom]

With all the back-and-forth power leapfrogging during the Androids and Cell arc, I find it difficult for Goku to end up any lower than that, since ideally I'd like him to be around 50 or 60 million during the Boo arc instead.

That's actually completely possible if you ignore the Daizenshuu statement about Gohan's rage boosts. For example:

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t197 ... inimalist/

You might need to give me a little more in-depth explanation of what you're saying. For me, Gohan's not even a part of all the power-leapfrogging I mentioned, which is mostly between the SSJs at the start of the Androids arc, the Androids themselves, Cell in his forms, Vegeta and Trunks, and so forth. Gohan doesn't factor in until the Cell Games.

[RandomGuy96]

With all the back-and-forth power leapfrogging during the Androids and Cell arc, I find it difficult for Goku to end up any lower than that, since ideally I'd like him to be around 50 or 60 million during the Boo arc instead.

That's actually completely possible if you ignore the Daizenshuu statement about Gohan's rage boosts. For example:

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t197 ... inimalist/

You might need to give me a little more in-depth explanation of what you're saying. For me, Gohan's not even a part of all the power-leapfrogging I mentioned, which is mostly between the SSJs at the start of the Androids arc, the Androids themselves, Cell in his forms, Vegeta and Trunks, and so forth. Gohan doesn't factor in until the Cell Games.

For me, one of the bigger sources of bloat is the Daizenshuu statement that CG base Gohan = Buu arc base Gohan. I was saying that if you ignore that, it's relatively easy to keep every base saiyan at 60 million or lower. I posted that list as an example of how you can get to 50 million for Buu arc Goku and still have it make sense.

[Kaboom]

Oh. Well, I already kind of ignore that, and consider Boo-arc Gohan a little bit weaker than his Cell Games self, which I see as a more straightforward interpretation of what's said in the manga. But since Goku and Vegeta would still be stronger than that level from Gohan anyway, it probably wouldn't make that big a difference.

The way things have worked out for me, in order to have Boo-arc Goku down at 50-60 million, the power jumps during the Cell arc itself would have to be smaller, I think. I already pinch things down closely enough during that part for my taste, though.

[RandomGuy96]

Oh. Well, I already kind of ignore that, and consider Boo-arc Gohan a little bit weaker than his Cell Games self, which I see as a more straightforward interpretation of what's said in the manga. But since Goku and Vegeta would still be stronger than that level from Gohan anyway, it probably wouldn't make that big a difference.

The way things have worked out for me, in order to have Boo-arc Goku down at 50-60 million, the power jumps during the Cell arc itself would have to be smaller, I think. I already pinch things down closely enough during that part for my taste, though.

Why is that? What really big power jumps are you talking about?

If I'm trying to be a minimalist, I find that there a lot of ways to get flexible about said jumps. For example:

-As Piccolo was exhausted from his fight with 17, that Light Grenade he fired at Imperfect Cell could have been less than what he could do at full capacity (though still enough to kill or seriously wound 17).
-16 could have been slightly weaker than Imperfect Cell (but still close enough to be practically even) to account for the stamina and durability advantage.
-Semi-Cell could have briefly powered up to take down 16 and then walked around at a rested level after that (like Goku when he fought the Ginyus), thus negating the need for two levels of Semi-Cell: "Cell who one-shotted 16" and "Cell way stronger than the one that one-shotted 16".
-By the time he fought Perfect Cell, Vegeta could have lost some power (not a lot, but some, like ten percent or something) from being in SSG2 so long, as the form is supposed to be energy inefficient.
-Goku could have been showing 55% of his power to Karin instead of exactly 50%, as he only said "that just now was about half".

etc.

[ZombieVito]

Oh. Well, I already kind of ignore that, and consider Boo-arc Gohan a little bit weaker than his Cell Games self, which I see as a more straightforward interpretation of what's said in the manga. But since Goku and Vegeta would still be stronger than that level from Gohan anyway, it probably wouldn't make that big a difference.

The way things have worked out for me, in order to have Boo-arc Goku down at 50-60 million, the power jumps during the Cell arc itself would have to be smaller, I think. I already pinch things down closely enough during that part for my taste, though.

Why is that? What really big power jumps are you talking about?

If I'm trying to be a minimalist, I find that there a lot of ways to get flexible about said jumps. For example:

-As Piccolo was exhausted from his fight with 17, that Light Grenade he fired at Imperfect Cell could have been less than what he could do at full capacity (though still enough to kill or seriously wound 17).
-16 could have been slightly weaker than Imperfect Cell (but still close enough to be practically even) to account for the stamina and durability advantage.
-Semi-Cell could have briefly powered up to take down 16 and then walked around at a rested level after that (like Goku when he fought the Ginyus), thus negating the need for two levels of Semi-Cell: "Cell who one-shotted 16" and "Cell way stronger than the one that one-shotted 16".
-By the time he fought Perfect Cell, Vegeta could have lost some power (not a lot, but some, like ten percent or something) from being in SSG2 so long, as the form is supposed to be energy inefficient.
-Goku could have been showing 55% of his power to Karin instead of exactly 50%, as he only said "that just now was about half".

etc.

This is great. He did look like it:

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 2&page=138

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Unless Roshi thought Goku only increased his power by 2-3% in 3 years.

Or, Roshi doesn't have battle powers in his mind.

[RandomGuy96]

It's really a good list but I'm curious why many people have 21st Goku at the 80's or 90's. I'm currently going with 50, gives me more breathing room later on.

It's pretty much impossible for Goku to be 90 at the 21st. Not only because that seems quite at odds with the feats at this point in the story, but because Tao totally crushed RRA Goku (who is stronger than 21st Goku), and was himself totally crushed him post-Karin Goku in turn. Then 22nd Budokai Goku totally crushed someone implied to be superior or equal to post-water Goku by Krillin and Yamcha. And, officially, 22nd Budokai Goku is 180 or less. It should also be noted that Tambourine was strong enough to curb-stomp Chapa and Krillin but was curb-stomped himself by Goku, so there's a huge gap in power here.

Chapter: 114, P14.1-4
Context: Goku’s first opponent in the prelims is King Chapa.
Yamcha: “So that’s King Chapa, huh…? Poor Goku… To have to face such a tremendous opponent right away…”
Kuririn: “Who’s this King Chapa?”
Yamcha: “He’s said to be an incredible master…It seems that when he last participated, he won the entire tournament without once being struck by an opponent…!”
Kuririn: “Whoa…”
Yamcha: “Th-this could be bad… Of course, it is Goku… If he’s really on, he may squeak by…”

Chapter: 115, P1.2-3
Jackie Chun: “Mmm… King Chapa, eh…?”
Yamcha: “Mr. Chun…?”
Jackie Chun: “Son Goku has certainly found himself in a sticky match right from the very start…”
Yamcha: “Indeed…”

For me, 21st Budokai Goku is 50 at the absolute most. He may be lower, like 25 or 30, as according to Karin he's minimum 4 times stronger after he loses to Tao.

Then again, trying to do pre-Raditz numbers without going by the theory that the numbers we got at the beginning of DBZ weren't full powers, and then ignoring the guidebook numbers for Piccolo and Goku, is doomed to failure if you're trying to make it accurately gel with the statements. Or, even if you do, considering Piccolo Jr's "I am many times stronger than I was before" (though he has no way of knowing that, unlike everyone else who makes a statement like that, so you can just assume he's wrong).

[Saiga]

@RandomGuy I actually do think Yamcha would be suppressed as well. But the suppression levels would still be somewhere in the thousands.

I wouldn't think fighting at full power all the time would take that much effort either but that's not what the whole Ginyu scene suggests. And the Boo arc all but confirms the base Saiyans only use any noticeable sort of power in short bursts.

[RandomGuy96]

@RandomGuy I actually do think Yamcha would be suppressed as well. But the suppression levels would still be somewhere in the thousands.

I wouldn't think fighting at full power all the time would take that much effort either but that's not what the whole Ginyu scene suggests. And the Boo arc all but confirms the base Saiyans only use any noticeable sort of power in short bursts.

Why would the amount he's suppressed to be proportionally less than the amount Goku is suppressed to? Basically, if Yamcha is suppressed to ten thousand or so (enough to be mistaken for a Goku moderately stronger than the one in the Saiyan arc), and his true power is sixty thousand, then why is Goku ALSO suppressed to around ten thousand (which was my point on Gero's reaction), when his true power is four million?

I don't know what Goku was trying to do when fighting the Ginyus. Maybe hide his presence from Freeza or Ginyu, in case they had scouters? Because otherwise I see no reason for him to not just to suppressing himself. Or maybe he was just screwing with them.

What scene proves that?

Back the 21st Budokai, I really do think that everyone there should be extremely weak relative to everyone at the 22nd. Goku's training with Karin, which according to the latter made Goku many times stronger, was a huge jump. Roshi was extremely surprised that Goku could wipe out a small army alone, but still considers it something that he (the strongest person at the 21st, and IIRC still stronger than Yamcha and Krillin at the end of this arc) maytheoretically be able to do, but admits that he's totally outclassed when he sees Goku go full force. It's easy to forget that RRA Goku still could get hurt by pistol bullets, and that post-Karin Goku probably would have gotten killed by a single missile. Also note that a battle power of 100 is supposed to give you offensive power on par with a battleship's main gun. After training with Karin, Goku should be ridiculously, hilariously above everyone else until they do the same.

I dunno where Tao would fit into this whole thing though. Him or his grenade. I also don't think it really fits well if Tao can crush the entire rest of the RRA by himself, as Goku did, but that's what Karin's statement would imply.

Did Goku and co get any stronger between the defeat of the RRA and confronting Baba? I forget; when did the humans also get several times stronger to get to their 22nd Budokai levels?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's pretty much impossible for Goku to be 90 at the 21st. Not only because that seems quite at odds with the feats at this point in the story, but because Tao totally crushed RRA Goku (who is stronger than 21st Goku), and was himself totally crushed him post-Karin Goku in turn. Then 22nd Budokai Goku totally crushed someone implied to be superior or equal to post-water Goku by Krillin and Yamcha.

What? How does these make Goku below 90? And who is the guy that is implied to be stronger than Kuririn & Yamcha?

according to Karin he's minimum 4 times stronger after he loses to Tao.

Where was that stated?

[RandomGuy96]

What? How does these make Goku below 90? And who is the guy that is implied to be stronger than Kuririn & Yamcha?

Chapa. I thought the quotes would make that clear. Roshi, Yamcha, and Krillin all think Goku is going to have a very difficult time despite this being the same Goku that smoked Tao Paipai and long surpassed Roshi.

Where was that stated?

Karin stated the training made Goku many times stronger. You could say the minimum is three instead of four, but it should still translate to more than twice as strong. Which makes sense, as RRA Goku was hurt by pistol bullets (specifically, White's revolver, which could be stronger than Bulma's pistol which was probably 9mm, but much weaker than a rifle) before training with Karin, and post-training Goku was implied to be vulnerable to a single missile, while someone with a battle power of 100 can apparently survive being hit with a battleship's main cannon. Tao Paipai himself was heavily injured by a grenade, though to be fair he WAS weakened, and we don't know what kind of grenades exist in DB Earth that Tao could get his hands on, especially given his RRA ties...

Chapter: 89, P14.1
Context: Goku accuses Karin of lying about the increase in power he should have received from the Super Holy Water.
Karin: “Nyahhahha! I didn’t trick you!! Your power has already become many times greater!”

And from Herms' translation of Daizenshuu 7's battle power list:

Son Goku: Trajectory of Battle Power Growth
Son Goku came to meet various friends and enemies, and overtook them in battle. Here you can follow the change in Goku’s battle power from meeting Bulma and beginning his journey, to when he became a Super Saiyan on Planet Namek.

Disclosing Son Goku’s battle power up until the battle with Freeza
At a very young age, Goku demonstrated the power of a martial arts master. However, the blood of the fighting race Saiyans pushed Goku on towards even further battles. The increase of the warriors’ battle power readings knew no stopping, and before you knew it the battles surpassed the limits of martial arts and ended up with the fate of the world riding on them.

First Appearance: 10
He already has twice the power of an ordinary person. What’s more, his body is tough enough to repel a gun’s bullet.

[implying that a non-saiyan with a battle power of 10 would die to a pistol bullet?]

Oozaru: 100
His battle power becoming ten times its usual, he can even pulverize a 30 cm thick steel wall. His has the destructive power of a battleship’s main gun.

Interestingly, Daizenshuu 7 has another comparison between a DB character's battle power and a real world weapon when discussing Piccolo Daimao's battle power of 260:

Piccolo Daimao : 260
With his youth restored, he becomes even more powerful. His power, which easily blows away a city, rivals that of a small nuclear bomb.

[KentalSSJ6]

Since I asked where everyone had Base Buu Goku, how bout Base GT Goku. Feel free to include him keeping SSJG if you view BOG and GT happening in the same continuity.