Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

but it was stated that goku's ki was gone entirely when he transformed to SSB, atleast in freeza battle, and he's never shown any indication of being sensed even a little.

However, if he is able to be sensed a little (as you say), then atleast krillin would've made a note of that, if not anyone else.

Again, Whis flat-out stated that normal ki can't be sensed either if Goku and Vegeta don't let it leak out. He said this during their training.

So Krillin being unable to sense any of Goku's ki does not imply that his SSB form doesn't incorporate that ki.

but Krillin doesn't note that goku's ki can "now" be sensed in the tournament. Which means that there is a heavy implication that he didn't sense SSB goku.

Also, how does hit know that Vados-Champa are above him? It is pretty clear that they didn't ever fight, as vegeta was the first opponent to survive hit, who's "never" missed a hit in his life.

If Goku and Vegeta can prevent their normal Ki from leaking why wouldn't they?

Also Vegeta didn't survive, hit wasn't supposed to kill him that's against the rules. He's only supposed to win which is what he accomplished against Vegeta.

Also you think it's possible Hit is stronger than Champa? Not saying it isn't possible.

[Marlowe89]

but Krillin doesn't note that goku's ki can "now" be sensed in the tournament. Which means that there is a heavy implication that he didn't sense SSB goku.

I don't see that as a "heavy implication" at all. Just because Krillin didn't outright say anything doesn't automatically mean that what you're trying to argue is true.

I can use the same reasoning in regards to Hit. He was never said to be able to sense godly ki, so why should we assume that he can? Why not go with the (IMO) safer assumption that Hit was merely sensing the multiplication of Goku's regular ki?

[Birusu16]

The theory that SSB multiplies "base ki" (regular ki actually) doesn't work since SSB has no base ki, it can't be sensed.

So how the heck can you even begin to claim such a statement is legit when you haven't even seen the episode? In fact, where the heck did you even come up with that line if you haven't even seen the episode?

You can sit here and claim I'm wrong all you want. The facts suggest I'm right considering Vegeta flat out states he's been surpassed by a temporary power meaning temporarily surpassing is still surpassing. I could care less if you agree with me or not. And no, facts most certainly are not determined by the majority. They're determined by statistical data and factual statements. The fact that you actually believe the majority determines what is fact is astonishing.

Multiple people who watched the ep on Reddit lol.

No, you simply don't understand what a linguistic fact is. A linguistic fact concerns the meaning of a word like "stronger." We're having a debate if temporarily surpassing is being stronger than someone overall, which is a linguistic debate. Saying that Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz is plain stupid nonsense that no one agrees with.

There are no facts that suggest you're right, I'm surprised you can say that considering you haven't brought up any facts. Beerus is stronger than SSB Vegeta, therefore he can survive a 10x Kaioken SSB onslaught and take down Goku in a fight. But SSB Vegeta would get wrecked by it. Therefore, Beerus > Goku > Vegeta.

And the line was wrong like I said it was. Herms already confirmed that as do the subs for the episode.

Yes there are. It doesn't matter if he can survive it and Vegeta can't. He's still being temporarily surpassed in power meaning he's being surpassed. We can go in circles all day for all I care. This argument is moot anyway since you no longer have anything to even suggest Goku with SSJB + KK is stronger than Beerus at this point.

[apex_pretador]

Again, Whis flat-out stated that normal ki can't be sensed either if Goku and Vegeta don't let it leak out. He said this during their training.

So Krillin being unable to sense any of Goku's ki does not imply that his SSB form doesn't incorporate that ki.

but Krillin doesn't note that goku's ki can "now" be sensed in the tournament. Which means that there is a heavy implication that he didn't sense SSB goku.

Also, how does hit know that Vados-Champa are above him? It is pretty clear that they didn't ever fight, as vegeta was the first opponent to survive hit, who's "never" missed a hit in his life.

If Goku and Vegeta can prevent their normal Ki from leaking why wouldn't they?

Also Vegeta didn't survive, hit wasn't supposed to kill him that's against the rules. He's only supposed to win which is what he accomplished against Vegeta.

Also you think it's possible Hit is stronger than Champa? Not saying it isn't possible.

If goku and vegeta are preventing their ki from leaking, then how is hit sensing, and what is he sensing?

If i'm not wrong, hit himself said that vegeta is the first person to survive so many blows of him.

I don't think it is possible, even improved hit was no match for SSBKK Goku, who beerus / champa are definitely a match of, if not superior. He's definitely not above vados.

[Draconic]

Just putting it out there that Whis said during the training episodes that the two "barely got to the level of sensing God ki", which was after training but before unlocking SSB, so it seems you can sense God ki if you are strong enough and Hit is way above Goku and Vegeta post BoG - pre RoF.

[apex_pretador]

Just putting it out there that Whis said during the training episodes that the two "barely got to the level of sensing God ki", which was after training but before unlocking SSB, so it seems you can sense God ki if you are strong enough and Hit is way above Goku and Vegeta post BoG - pre RoF.

but many people here put SS3 goku above base goku (from that time) but SS3 goku didn't sense beerus.
Gohan didn't sense beerus either.
Gotenks didn't sense beerus either.

[Chiki]

And the line was wrong like I said it was. Herms already confirmed that.

Yes there are. It doesn't matter if he can survive it and Vegeta can't. He's still being temporarily surpassed in power meaning he's being surpassed. We can go in circles all day for all I care. This argument is moot anyway since you no longer have anything to even suggest Goku with SSJB + KK is stronger than Beerus at this point.

Like I said multiple times, "we'll see when the sub comes out," There are other facts which indicate SSB x10 Goku > Beerus, such as how nervous Beerus got when he was multiplying his power lol.

====

Let me ask this question to everyone else: do you guys think Start of DBZ Piccolo is stronger than Raditz, though Piccolo's power level is around 300 and Raditz's power level is around 1100, but Piccolo's Makankosappo allows him to bring his power level up to above Raditz's?

Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz OR Raditz > Start of DBZ Piccolo?

Obviously, Raditz > Start of DBZ Piccolo, but what would you guys pick?

[TheMikado]

Piccolos ability only multiplied that one specific energy weapon and took forever to charge. If Piccolos ability increased anything he did I would definitely give it to Piccolo.

As far as I know SSB isn't allowed to have surpassed Beerus level yet.

[Draconic]

Just putting it out there that Whis said during the training episodes that the two "barely got to the level of sensing God ki", which was after training but before unlocking SSB, so it seems you can sense God ki if you are strong enough and Hit is way above Goku and Vegeta post BoG - pre RoF.

but many people here put SS3 goku above base goku (from that time) but SS3 goku didn't sense beerus.
Gohan didn't sense beerus either.
Gotenks didn't sense beerus either.

Well, then many people are wrong Joking, of course.
Personally, I don't think there is any way their bases are below SSJ3. They are higher than that but below SSJ Vegetto. That's like 5 levels of power in difference (SSJ3 Gotenks, Super Buu, Gohan, Buutenks, Buuhan), levels that we never had the chance to see actually try and sense a God. If we assume that Buuhan level is enough for that, everything fits nicely.

[Birusu16]

And the line was wrong like I said it was. Herms already confirmed that.

Yes there are. It doesn't matter if he can survive it and Vegeta can't. He's still being temporarily surpassed in power meaning he's being surpassed. We can go in circles all day for all I care. This argument is moot anyway since you no longer have anything to even suggest Goku with SSJB + KK is stronger than Beerus at this point.

Like I said multiple times, "we'll see when the sub comes out," There are other facts which indicate SSB x10 Goku > Beerus, such as how nervous Beerus got when he was multiplying his power lol.

====

Let me ask this question to everyone else: do you guys think Start of DBZ Piccolo is stronger than Raditz, though Piccolo's power level is around 300 and Raditz's power level is around 1100, but Piccolo's Makankosappo allows him to bring his power level up to above Raditz's?

Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz OR Raditz > Start of DBZ Piccolo?

Obviously, Raditz > Start of DBZ Piccolo, but what would you guys pick?

The subs already are out buddy and they confirm the same thing. It's Hit who says he can barely see Goku, not Beerus. And no, there is nothing indicating SSB + KK x10 Goku is stronger than Beerus. Beerus flat out shoots down the insinuation that he'd have trouble with Goku. You have to resort to reaching at this point because your only evidence was just shredded.

Feel free to ask everyone else. It won't change anything because you're failing to grasp the massive differences between Piccolo's SBC and Goku's KK.

[Draconic]

The difference between the Makankosappo and the Kaioken is that Kaioken acts like a transformation. It can be activated or turned off at will. It's not just a technique. It's like a weaker form of Super Saiyan that Goku can access and Vegeta, for now, can't. So I think it's fair to say Goku > Vegeta at this point.

[Hugo Boss]

Just putting it out there that Whis said during the training episodes that the two "barely got to the level of sensing God ki", which was after training but before unlocking SSB, so it seems you can sense God ki if you are strong enough and Hit is way above Goku and Vegeta post BoG - pre RoF.

Good point. This could explain why Hit was keeping up with kaioken's multipliers. By the way, Whis' explanation was after Goku's first day of training under his tutelage. At that point, Vegeta should be stronger than Goku when he fought Beerus on Kaio's planet. In another hand, Goku might have gained the ability to sense the ki of gods after fighting Beerus.

[Birusu16]

Piccolos ability only multiplied that one specific energy weapon and took forever to charge. If Piccolos ability increased anything he did I would definitely give it to Piccolo.

As far as I know SSB isn't allowed to have surpassed Beerus level yet.

The difference between the Makankosappo and the Kaioken is that Kaioken acts like a transformation. It can be activated or turned off at will. It's not just a technique. It's like a weaker form of Super Saiyan that Goku can access and Vegeta, for now, can't. So I think it's fair to say Goku > Vegeta at this point.

Both posts hit the nail on the head.

[Chiki]

Piccolos ability only multiplied that one specific energy weapon and took forever to charge. If Piccolos ability increased anything he did I would definitely give it to Piccolo.

As far as I know SSB isn't allowed to have surpassed Beerus level yet.

The difference between the Makankosappo and the Kaioken is that Kaioken acts like a transformation. It can be activated or turned off at will. It's not just a technique. It's like a weaker form of Super Saiyan that Goku can access and Vegeta, for now, can't. So I think it's fair to say Goku > Vegeta at this point.

Both posts hit the nail on the head.

Um... they're disagreeing with you. LOL

You said Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz. They're saying no. Wow lol.

[Draconic]

Just putting it out there that Whis said during the training episodes that the two "barely got to the level of sensing God ki", which was after training but before unlocking SSB, so it seems you can sense God ki if you are strong enough and Hit is way above Goku and Vegeta post BoG - pre RoF.

Good point. This could explain why Hit was keeping up with kaioken's multipliers. By the way, Whis' explanation was after Goku's first day of training under his tutelage. At that point, Vegeta should be stronger than Goku when he fought Beerus on Kaio's planet. In another hand, Goku might have gained the ability to sense the ki of gods after fighting Beerus.

Well yeah, Goku didn't need as much time to reach that level as Vegeta having undergone the ritual. The point is, once you reach a level of power you can sense God ki.
Also, going deeper about it, I think you just need to be close to the USER of God ki. We know Dende has God ki, but was senseable, Piccolo sensed Kaioshin (Goku was in base, so that's why he couldn't and had to ask Piccolo after he forfeited). Hit is close to Blue Goku, while none of the Z fighters are, so it makes sense why they couldn't sense them. Beerus is far above everybody except Goku and Vegeta so they could sense him...

[Birusu16]

Piccolos ability only multiplied that one specific energy weapon and took forever to charge. If Piccolos ability increased anything he did I would definitely give it to Piccolo.

As far as I know SSB isn't allowed to have surpassed Beerus level yet.

The difference between the Makankosappo and the Kaioken is that Kaioken acts like a transformation. It can be activated or turned off at will. It's not just a technique. It's like a weaker form of Super Saiyan that Goku can access and Vegeta, for now, can't. So I think it's fair to say Goku > Vegeta at this point.

Both posts hit the nail on the head.

Um... they're disagreeing with you. LOL

You said Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz. They're saying no. Wow lol.

No I didn't.

I flat out ignored that in every single one of your posts because you couldn't seem to grasp the differences between Piccolo's SBC and KK. Nobody claims Piccolo surpassed Raditz because the SBC merely increased that one portion of his power while Raditz was still his better in overall fighting ability and is merely a technique while KK is more akin to a transformation that increases your ability as a whole (SSJ ring any bells here?) rather than just that one energy attack.

So yes, Goku via a temporary power increase surpassed Vegeta and would surpass Beerus in overall ability if he was stronger. Piccolo would not surpass Beerus via a SBC because he's still far inferior to the latter in terms of speed, power, durability, etc. That wouldn't be the case if KK x10 Goku was stronger than him as KK increases ALL of those stats. Like I said before, temporarily surpassing them is still surpassing them in this case.

[apex_pretador]

Just putting it out there that Whis said during the training episodes that the two "barely got to the level of sensing God ki", which was after training but before unlocking SSB, so it seems you can sense God ki if you are strong enough and Hit is way above Goku and Vegeta post BoG - pre RoF.

but many people here put SS3 goku above base goku (from that time) but SS3 goku didn't sense beerus.
Gohan didn't sense beerus either.
Gotenks didn't sense beerus either.

Well, then many people are wrong Joking, of course.
Personally, I don't think there is any way their bases are below SSJ3. They are higher than that but below SSJ Vegetto. That's like 5 levels of power in difference (SSJ3 Gotenks, Super Buu, Gohan, Buutenks, Buuhan), levels that we never had the chance to see actually try and sense a God. If we assume that Buuhan level is enough for that, everything fits nicely.

interesting.
This is where I put base saiyans myself (a bit above buuhan).
and this works well, assuming that goku didn't far surpass gohan at BoG.

[dbgtFO]

Um... they're disagreeing with you. LOL

You said Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz. They're saying no. Wow lol.

No, he didn't.
His point from the start was that surpassing someone with the Kaio-ken counts as straight up surpassing someone, thus he's in agreement with the two quoted posts.
He didn't address your Raditz example as can be seen further up on this page.

[Birusu16]

Um... they're disagreeing with you. LOL

You said Start of DBZ Piccolo > Raditz. They're saying no. Wow lol.

No, he didn't.
His point from the start was that surpassing someone with the Kaio-ken counts as straight up surpassing someone, thus he's in agreement with the two quoted posts.
He didn't address your Raditz example as can be seen further up on this page.

Thank you!

[Hugo Boss]

Just putting it out there that Whis said during the training episodes that the two "barely got to the level of sensing God ki", which was after training but before unlocking SSB, so it seems you can sense God ki if you are strong enough and Hit is way above Goku and Vegeta post BoG - pre RoF.

Good point. This could explain why Hit was keeping up with kaioken's multipliers. By the way, Whis' explanation was after Goku's first day of training under his tutelage. At that point, Vegeta should be stronger than Goku when he fought Beerus on Kaio's planet. In another hand, Goku might have gained the ability to sense the ki of gods after fighting Beerus.

Well yeah, Goku didn't need as much time to reach that level as Vegeta having undergone the ritual. The point is, once you reach a level of power you can sense God ki.
Also, going deeper about it, I think you just need to be close to the USER of God ki. We know Dende has God ki, but was senseable, Piccolo sensed Kaioshin (Goku was in base, so that's why he couldn't and had to ask Piccolo after he forfeited). Hit is close to Blue Goku, while none of the Z fighters are, so it makes sense why they couldn't sense them. Beerus is far above everybody except Goku and Vegeta so they could sense him...

We don't know if Dende changed the type of his ki, though. We only know he has the ability to sense the ki of gods. If Piccolo can't sense Beerus' ki, then he also can't sense Kaioshin's ki. He must have realized how powerful Kaioshin was using some other method.