Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Completed my latest battle power list. The format was blatantly ripped off from from Zombie's newest list, though with some modifications (dividing characters by faction, listing heights for some of them because I wanted to, the presence of a handful of other movie characters, etc.). I just recently finished it and only read it over once, so I probably made a mistake or ten. Feedback and corrections are welcomed:

Powuh Levels

[Kid Buu]

Ran Fan seems pretty low. Wasn't she able to damage Nam quite a bit at the 21st...?

[RandomGuy96]

Ran Fan seems pretty low. Wasn't she able to damage Nam quite a bit at the 21st...?

She was able to hurt him, but Nam was explicitly holding back, and knocked her out with one blow (with his eyes closed) when he got serious.

[Kid Buu]

I suppose that works.

Also, Freeza powers up twice in his second form, doesn't he?

I think the order is Unweighted Piccolo > Full Power 2nd Form Freeza > Weighted Piccolo >= 2nd Form Freeza Power-Up > 2nd Form Freeza. Then again, that fight is a clusterfuck, so maybe its best to avoid confusion.

[RandomGuy96]

I suppose that works.

Also, Freeza powers up twice in his second form, doesn't he?

I think the order is Unweighted Piccolo > Full Power 2nd Form Freeza > Weighted Piccolo >= 2nd Form Freeza Power-Up > 2nd Form Freeza. Then again, that fight is a clusterfuck, so maybe its best to avoid confusion.

Yep, he does. I just didn't bother listing the three stages of his second form (initial, powered up against Gohan, powered up against Piccolo), because I didn't think they were worth listing. Just as I didn't bother listing the various percentages of power he uses in his 1st form (initial, powered up against Nail, powered up against Vegeta). That order is correct, though Piccolo being stronger without weights is merely implied by everyone's reactions rather than stated outright.

[Doctor.]

Time for my Namek powerlevels.

Spoiler:

Kuririn - 2,000
Kuririn, weighted clothing - 1,500
Kuririn, post power-up - 13,000 and rising
Kuririn, vs Ginyu - 25,000 and rising

Son Gohan - 1,400
Son Gohan, post power-up - 14,000 and rising
Son Gohan, Masenko - 22,000
Son Gohan, vs Ginyu - 27,000 and rising

Vegeta - 24,000
Vegeta, after healing - 30,000
Vegeta, Final Crash - 38,000
Vegeta, zenkai - 475,000

Kewi - 18,000
Dodoria - 22,000

Zarbon - 23,500
Zarbon, transformed - 27,500

Freeza - 530,000

Nail, suppressed - 20,000
Nail, full power - 42,000

Son Goku, suppressed - 5,000
Son Goku - 90,000
Son Goku, Kaioken x2 - 180,000

Gurd - 10,000
Recoom - 45,000
Jheese - 50,000
Butta - 50,000

Ginyu - 120,000
Ginyu, in Son Goku's body - 23,000

---------------------------------

Son Goku, post Zenkai - 3,000,000
Son Goku, Kaioken x10 - 30,000,000
Son Goku, Kaioken x20 - 60,000,000
Son Goku, Genkidama - 100,000,000
Son Goku, Super Saiyajin - 150,000,000

Freeza - 530,000
Freeza, second form - 1,200,000
Freeza, third form - 1,800,000
Freeza, final form - 3,600,000
Freeza, 50% - 60,000,000
Freeza, 70% - 84,000,000
Freeza, 100% - 120,000,000

Piccolo, arrival on Namek - 200,000
Piccolo, weighted clothing - 1,100,000
Piccolo - 1,375,000
Piccolo, with Gohan and Kuririn's Ki - 2,625,000

Vegeta - 475,000
Vegeta, post Zenkai - 2,000,000
Vegeta, final burst cannon - 3,000,000

Kuririn, vs first form - 250,000 and rising
Kuririn, vs final form - 450,000 and rising

Son Gohan, vs first form - 300,000 and rising
Son Gohan, enraged - 700,000
Son Gohan, post Zenkai - 700,000 and rising
Son Gohan, enraged - 1,450,000
Son Gohan, vs final form - 800,000 and rising

Plus the Mecha Freeza stuff:

Spoiler:

Mecha Freeza, suppressed - 72,500,000
Mecha Freeza, hypothetical full power - 145,000,000

Cold - 75,000,000

Mirai Trunks, suppressed - 5
Mirai Trunks - 3,000,000
Mirai Trunks, Super Saiyajin - 150,000,000

Son Goku - 3,500,000
Son Goku, Super Saiyajin - 175,000,000

Vegeta - 2,500,000

Piccolo, weighted clothing - 2,400,000

Son Gohan - 1,000,000

Kuririn - 850,000

Tenshinhan - 720,000

Yamucha - 520,000

Chaozu - 210,000

Thoughts?

[Kamiccolo9]

Personally, I like having Piccolo a bit stronger than Vegeta in the Trunks mini-arc. He's the one that takes the lead among the heroes there, and he seems more than willing to take on Vegeta, which I doubt he would be if he couldn't back it up.

Chapter: 336 (DBZ 142), P6.1-2
Context: after Piccolo says that only those with confidence in their abilities should come battle the androids
Vegeta: “Don’t make me laugh. Aren’t you’re the one with the least confidence?"
Piccolo: “What was that? You want to try me?”

And later, when Goku asks who beat Freeza, Piccolo is the one that Goku thinks may have done it first.

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P1.4
Goku: “Well at any rate, who was it who defeated Freeza? That was an incredible ki. Was it Piccolo? Or Vegeta?”
Note: obviously it wasn't either, but it might be notable that Goku at least felt it conceivable that Piccolo did it.

Although, you have them close enough where it wouldn't really matter. I'd just switch the two of them.

[Doctor.]

I do have him stronger. But not with weighted clothing though. I normally give a 1.25x increase when the weights are off, so if Piccolo took of the weights in the Mecha Freeza mini-arc, he would be at 3 million.

[ZombieVito]

Completed my latest battle power list. The format was blatantly ripped off from from Zombie's newest list, though with some modifications (dividing characters by faction, listing heights for some of them because I wanted to, the presence of a handful of other movie characters, etc.). I just recently finished it and only read it over once, so I probably made a mistake or ten. Feedback and corrections are welcomed:

Powuh Levels

Nitpicks:

1.- Karin > 22nd TB Goku?
2.- I don't get why people have Gohan at 1 million after his zenkai boost. Wouldn't Vegeta say: "THAT KID JUST SURPASSED ME!!".
3.- Any reason why you have Muri that strong?
4.- Any reason why you have Dai Kaioshin that low? He was absorbed after all. He must have been consider of worth.
5.- Zarbon 32K when transformed!?
6.- Just figured out Goku actually got stronger after the 21st TB, Krillin confirms it while Goku is fighting Blue.
7.- Any reason why Yamu is stronger than Spopovich?

Damn you must really hate BoG to list all the movies except that one.

[Doctor.]

Karin told Goku he was almost as strong as he was. Meaning Goku was still a bit weaker, Zombie.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

When is it stated that newborn Piccolo Junior >= young Piccolo Daimao?

I'm not sure if it's stated anywhere. But if Piccolo was just a weak Namekian kid, wouldn't Kami send someone (like Tenshinhan or Kame-sennin, I don't think Goku would go & kill a weak green kid) to kill him before he become strong again, instead of training Goku and letting Piccolo grow stronger during that time, risking that he may become stronger than Goku this time?

Proof? It says, right after a sentence where the main subject was his battle power of 100, "his has the destructive power of a battleship's main gun". Basic sentence structure says the entry is referring to the battle power, not physical strength. Physical strength is not mentioned here at all, unlike in the blurb for the very first battle power given... which is also the battle power right above this one.

What proof? It's talking about Oozaru Goku, who has battle power of 100. Oozaru Goku could only punch & throw rocks. Plus, it seems that the comparison with the battleship's main gun comes from Oozaru's size compared to Goku, since compared to Oozaru Goku, the battleship's main gun is like a gun against Goku.

Indeed. That's what I mean; I think a shot from a battleship's main gun would inflict decent damage on someone around 100, the equivalent of a Kamehameha of that battle power fired at someone, and they wouldn't tank it. However, merely being able to survive it would be waaaaay out of RRA Goku's league.

He survived those weapons, but as you noted, he didn't tank them. If what looks like a Panzerschreck can inflict minor damage and pain on Goku with one hit, a high powered sniper rifle can hurt him and move his head (I'd say it was about to equivalent to a clean one of Tao's punches to the face), someone in Goku's general league can be critically injured by a concussion grenade to the face (it kinda looks like a MK3A2 hand grenade), and Goku is still cautious of missiles and machine guns, then there's absolutely no way Goku should be able to survive a 406mm naval artillery shell. At all. The difference between these two weapons is HUGE. Receiving any harm from the former should mark as you fodder for the latter, just as Vegeta getting hurt by a punch from Semi-Cell demonstrates that he couldn't survive, say, a SBC from that same Cell. Because he can't be that high if an attack like that could phase him.

Finally, Blue was going to kill RRA arc Goku and Roshi with a time bomb about the size of a man's head. They were only saved by Lunch's intervention.

I just checked the Goku vs RRA fight, and Goku doesn't get any real damage from any weapon. The sniper & bazooka hurt him a little, but they still didn't give him a scratch.

As for Taopaipai's & Blue's bombs, we don't know what kind of destructive power they had, since this is a fictional world with different, more advanced technology than our world.

[RandomGuy96]

1.- Karin > 22nd TB Goku?

Look closely at Goku's power levels again, and remember when exactly Karin said this.

2.- I don't get why people have Gohan at 1 million after his zenkai boost. Wouldn't Vegeta say: "THAT KID JUST SURPASSED ME!!".

I don't think he seemed all that mad when attacking Freeza the second time. Plus, it'd only make sense, 'cause Goku and Vegeta got even more massive zenkais, so I try not to leave Gohan out.

3.- Any reason why you have Muri that strong?

He had that power level in that movie 3 pamphlet. Same reason I have Garlic Jr and co at the levels they're at. I don't trust those numbers or anything, but I thought I'd may as well use them as a novelty since nothing contradicts them.

4.- Any reason why you have Dai Kaioshin that low? He was absorbed after all. He must have been consider of worth.

Because South Kaioshin + Dai Kaioshin = Mr. Buu. And I still did make him stronger than the other Kaioshin.

Regardless of how strong he was, Dai Kaioshin must have been very weak compared to the Buu that absorbed him, since Buff Buu = South Kaioshin + Pure Buu, and South Kaioshin > Dai Kaioshin. I assume Pure Buu just used his absorption ability for the very first time on South Kaioshin, and was so impressed by the result that he rushed off to absorb the next notable power he could find, which was Dai Kaioshin. Or he may have seen Dai Kaioshin demonstrate a useful ability; according to Daizenshuu 4, we at least know that Buu got his ability to instantly heal other people from Dai Kaioshin (which I guess means Pure Buu can't do it).

5.- Zarbon 32K when transformed!?

Yep. Vegeta seemed fairly cautious of him, and defeated him using tactics and Zarbon's arrogance. The way he spoke of Zarbon implies to me he still hadn't surpassed him, and Zarbon had a slight lead, as he never said that he was stronger than Zarbon (he just said that Zarbon would be overconfident since the last victory), and after he uses the sand trick to land a bunch of cheap shots, he says something like "now that your battle power has dropped, there's no way you can beat me!".

6.- Just figured out Goku actually got stronger after the 21st TB, Krillin confirms it while Goku is fighting Blue.

I just checked the strength checker, and you're right. I guess he got stronger from fighting everyone at the tower?


Chapter: Chapter 77, P.13.2-4
Context: Goku easily fights against Blue, not trying too hard. Blue admits he never faced such a threat.
Blue: “Gnnn... Oooh!!”
Goku: “Heh heh! No big dealio!”
Kuririn: “Goku’s amazing! He become even stronger than he was during the Tenkaichi Budoukai!!”

In any case, I'll bump him up slightly from 32 to 35.

7.- Any reason why Yamu is stronger than Spopovich?

Any reason for you that Spopovich is stronger than Yamu? Neither really do anything. But Yamu is the smaller one, which usually means he's stronger in a big guy-little guy duo. He also seemed to be in charge.

Damn you must really hate BoG to list all the movies except that one.

Huh? I only listed 3-4 movies, ones I consider "canon" (though I forgot to list 13... guess I'll add Hildegarn now). I didn't list BOG characters because I'm still not quite sure how strong they should be (or how powerful Potara SS2 and Potara SS3 would be).

Karin told Goku he was almost as strong as he was. Meaning Goku was still a bit weaker, Zombie.

Chapter: 150, P13.2-4
Context: Goku asks Karin to train him more
Karin: “Unfortunately…There’s nothing more for me to teach you…[ ] Yeah…I understand how you feel, but…You’ve already acquired enough power to surpass even me”…
Note: Previously, I had mistakenly put that Goku had almost gotten more power than Karin, due to carelessly mistaking mou sude ni/"already" for mou sugu ni/"almost"/"very soon". Sorry about that.

I'm not sure if it's stated anywhere. But if Piccolo was just a weak Namekian kid, wouldn't Kami send someone (like Tenshinhan or Kame-sennin, I don't think Goku would go & kill a weak green kid) to kill him before he become strong again, instead of training Goku and letting Piccolo grow stronger during that time, risking that he may become stronger than Goku this time?

I would assume he was just hiding. If Kami knew where Piccolo was along, it wouldn't matter if he were as strong as Daimao. He could do it himself, or send Popo.

What proof? It's talking about Oozaru Goku, who has battle power of 100. Oozaru Goku could only punch & throw rocks. Plus, it seems that the comparison with the battleship's main gun comes from Oozaru's size compared to Goku, since compared to Oozaru Goku, the battleship's main gun is like a gun against Goku.

Proof that it was at all talking about physical strength after neglecting to mention this right after it mentioned physical strength in another battle power blurb. The way the two sentences are phrased point to it referring to battle power. Size isn't mentioned at all.

His battle power becoming ten times its usual, he can even pulverize a 30 cm thick steel wall. His has the destructive power of a battleship’s main gun.

I just checked the Goku vs RRA fight, and Goku doesn't get any real damage from any weapon. The sniper & bazooka hurt him a little, but they still didn't give him a scratch.

If we're going by that logic, then no one ever hurts anyone else with regular punches, unless that person bleeds and bruises every single time they take any sort of hit. And the bazooka did scratch him, in addition to tearing his clothes and hurting more than a little. Which, along with the fact that someone in his general league (Tao) could be heavily damaged by a concussion grenade, should indicate that surviving a battleship's main gun (battle power equivalent: 100) is waaaaaaaaaay out of Goku's league.

As for Taopaipai's & Blue's bombs, we don't know what kind of destructive power they had, since this is a fictional world with different, more advanced technology than our world.

That's a very weak excuse to put characters at absurdly high levels compared to where they actually are in the story for no real reason. Unlike other weapons, these two bombs are never implied to be fantastical in nature, and in fact the grenade, along with most of the guns the RRA uses, seems to be based on a real world weapon. The Goku that was lethally threatened by a bomb is the same Goku who explicitly couldn't survive a shotgun blast to the face at point blank range and was hurt a lot by pistol bullets, and the Tao who was injured by that concussion grenade was the same Tao who was totally crushed by someone who could still be hurt by rocket launchers and sniper rifles. The battleship's main gun comment, when put next to both of these things, seems like a very deliberate attempt to classify the actual powers of these numbers. Which makes sense, given what that section of the Daizenshuu was about.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I would assume he was just hiding. If Kami knew where Piccolo was along, it wouldn't matter if he were as strong as Daimao. He could do it himself, or send Popo.

He is god, he can see everything. Plus, Piccolo doesn't have any ability to hide his ki while training. He & Popo couldn't go for the same reason they didn't stop Daimao: they were gods, so they couldn't interfere to the mortal world, not to mention that Kami killing him would count as suicide, which is also forbidden.

Proof that it was at all talking about physical strength after neglecting to mention this right after it mentioned physical strength in another battle power blurb. The way the two sentences are phrased point to it referring to battle power. Size isn't mentioned at all.

Because all Oozaru Goku could do was use his physical strength. Having the destructive power of a battleship's main gun comes from his feat to destroy a 30 cm-thick steel wall.

If we're going by that logic, then no one ever hurts anyone else with regular punches, unless that person bleeds and bruises every single time they take any sort of hit.

Getting hurt doesn't mean that someone gets damage.

And the bazooka did scratch him, in addition to tearing his clothes and hurting more than a little.

It just made him dirty.

That's a very weak excuse to put characters at absurdly high levels compared to where they actually are in the story for no real reason.

There is a real reason. I don't find it very realistic for an old man beyond his prime to make huge boosts in power when he is already fully trained, yet rusty, and so old, nor do I imagine Tsuru-sennin to be that much stronger than him.


I'm not sure if Goku's feats with weapons should apply to everyone. Goku is a Saiyan, and the D7 section about his BP mentions that on top of it, his body is tough enough to repel a gun bullet, implying that it's not because of his BP, but because of his Saiyan skin. The manga supports it: even though they are gag scenes, in the scenes that Goku, Kuririn, and Kame-sennin are getting shot, Goku is the only one that isn't bleeding. Bora, an Earthling, is shown repelling bullets, but he has to get ready for it. So, if Kuririn & Kame-sennin can repel bullets (I'm sure they can), they also have to get ready for it, otherwise, they'll get hurt like they do in the gag scenes.

[RandomGuy96]

He is god, he can see everything. Plus, Piccolo doesn't have any ability to hide his ki while training. He & Popo couldn't go for the same reason they didn't stop Daimao: they were gods, so they couldn't interfere to the mortal world, not to mention that Kami killing him would count as suicide, which is also forbidden.

He had no problem doing it later. Also, he could have just gathered the Dragon Balls and wished that Piccolo were sealed.

Because all Oozaru Goku could do was use his physical strength. Having the destructive power of a battleship's main gun comes from his feat to destroy a 30 cm-thick steel wall.

No, he could use his ki as well, as obviously your punches are determined by your ki power rather than your physical strength. Battle power of 100 = destructive power of a battleship's main gun.

Getting hurt doesn't mean that someone gets damage. It just made him dirty.

Going by that logic, tons of punches never 'damage' anyone if they don't bleed. We saw him get hit by a sniper rifle bullet, and it caused him pain and made him flinch. That's usually what happened when someone gets punched. Same with the bazooka, but it also put some scuffs on him.

There is a real reason. I don't find it very realistic for an old man beyond his prime to make huge boosts in power when he is already fully trained, yet rusty, and so old, nor do I imagine Tsuru-sennin to be that much stronger than him.

REALISTIC!?

Roshi would have been stronger in his prime, but he's an old man who hasn't trained in hundreds of years. Why wouldn't he have gotten way weaker?

That reason doesn't override all of the feats we see. Even if you don't like, Tao Paipai, who can be killed by a concussion grenade, is much stronger than Roshi at this point in the story, strong enough to be somewhat comparable to someone "many times stronger" than him, even though 100 battle power = battleship's main gun and 260 battle power = small nuclear bomb. Someone as strong as Roshi can still be killed by a single shotgun blast.

I'm not sure if Goku's feats with weapons should apply to everyone. Goku is a Saiyan, and the D7 section about his BP mentions that on top of it, his body is tough enough to repel a gun bullet, implying that it's not because of his BP, but because of his Saiyan skin.

That would be the case when his battle power was still 10. As your battle power gets higher, physical attributes become irrelevant. Bora, who is much weaker than Tao Paipai, showed that humans can tank bullets (at least pistol bullets) like nothing at sufficiently high levels of ki. Goku's saiyan skin shouldn't matter past a certain point.

even though they are gag scenes, in the scenes that Goku, Kuririn, and Kame-sennin are getting shot, Goku is the only one that isn't bleeding

Gag scene. Roshi is as strong if not stronger than Goku at this time, as shown by their fight.

Bora, an Earthling, is shown repelling bullets, but he has to get ready for it. So, if Kuririn & Kame-sennin can repel bullets (I'm sure they can), they also have to get ready for it, otherwise, they'll get hurt like they do in the gag scenes.

Bora was probably just a lot stronger than Goku was at that point. Prepared or no, he took those bullets a lot better than Goku took pistol bullets from White, or was going to take a shotgun blast from Blue.

Goku gets hurt by relatively low powered bullets all the time in the first few arcs of the story, and was prior to his training lethally threatened by, among other things, concussion grenades and shotgun blasts. After his training, where he is explicitly said to have become many times stronger, he is still weak enough that sniper rifles and rocket launchers can budge and hurt him (and yes, this DOES mean something, as we see DB characters all the time not get hurt at all by attacks that are too weak, like King Piccolo with Goku's Kamehameha), missiles are implied to be lethal or heavily damaging, and a grenade can work on him if he's not prepared to take it. None of this points to "destructive power on par with a battleship's main gun". The difference between a battleship's main gun and the man-portable weapons that are regularly shown to at least hurt Goku is so massive that him being able to survive the former should be out of the question.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He had no problem doing it later. Also, he could have just gathered the Dragon Balls and wished that Piccolo were sealed.

But at that point, he had a problem in doing it.

No, he could use his ki as well, as obviously your punches are determined by your ki power rather than your physical strength. Battle power of 100 = destructive power of a battleship's main gun.

Isn't physical strength increased by increasing your ki?

Going by that logic, tons of punches never 'damage' anyone if they don't bleed.

If a ton of punches can't make someone bleed, how are they strong?

We saw him get hit by a sniper rifle bullet, and it caused him pain and made him flinch. That's usually what happened when someone gets punched. Same with the bazooka, but it also put some scuffs on him.

He just said "that hurt", and moved on. He didn't have any scratch or bruise, so all it was for him was an "ouch".

Roshi would have been stronger in his prime, but he's an old man who hasn't trained in hundreds of years. Why wouldn't he have gotten way weaker?

Piccolo Daimao hadn't trained in hundred of years, yet he didn't get over 2 times weaker.

That reason doesn't override all of the feats we see. Even if you don't like, Tao Paipai, who can be killed by a concussion grenade, is much stronger than Roshi at this point in the story, strong enough to be somewhat comparable to someone "many times stronger" than him, even though 100 battle power = battleship's main gun and 260 battle power = small nuclear bomb. Someone as strong as Roshi can still be killed by a single shotgun blast.

It's not 100 BP = battleship's main gun, it's Oozaru Goku = destructive power of battleship's main gun, and it's not 260 BP = destructive power of small nuclear bomb, it's Ki blast with battle power of 260 = small nuclear bomb.

Gag scene. Roshi is as strong if not stronger than Goku at this time, as shown by their fight.

Yet he can still bleed from bullets when he isn't ready to take them, even Kuririn in the beginning of Saiyan arc.

Bora was probably just a lot stronger than Goku was at that point. Prepared or no, he took those bullets a lot better than Goku took pistol bullets from White, or was going to take a shotgun blast from Blue.

But what if he wasn't prepared to take them?

[RandomGuy96]

But at that point, he had a problem in doing it.

When is that stated? And again, why not just gather the dragon balls?

Isn't physical strength increased by increasing your ki?

When I say "physical strength", I mean purely physical power completely independent of ki. When I say "a bear is physically stronger than a human", I don't think the bear and human necessarily need to have different battle power numbers.

I just think it's pretty clear that the blurb is referring to battle power. It's the battle power section of the book, they specifically mention when non-battle power factors are at work and didn't do so here, and the two sentences are written in a way that basically outright says that the "battleship's main gun" comment was referring to the battle power displayed above the blurb.

If a ton of punches can't make someone bleed, how are they strong?

I meant "tons of punches throughout the manga" not "tons of punches on the same person". If a person gets hit once, and it moves them a little and hurts, enough that they rub the spot where they were hit, that would indicate that fighter A could probably damage fighter B if he kept punching him in the face multiple times. The same should apply for Goku taking a single bullet.

He just said "that hurt", and moved on. He didn't have any scratch or bruise, so all it was for him was an "ouch".

An "ouch" is still more than a vastly superior fighter will get from an opponent's attack. Nappa, when hit by Krillin's blast, wasn't hurt at all. Neither was King Piccolo when hit by Goku's Kamehameha.

Piccolo Daimao hadn't trained in hundred of years, yet he didn't get over 2 times weaker.

That could be put down to possible differences between Namekians and humans, and the fact that he was sealed in a jar.

It's not 100 BP = battleship's main gun, it's Oozaru Goku = battleship's main gun, and it's not 260 BP = small nuclear bomb, it's Ki blast with battle power of 260 = small nuclear bomb.

No, the sentences are clearly referring to battle power. Again, if they were not, they would just say that he has a battle power of 100, and on top of that, his physical strength gives him destructive power equivalent to a battleship's main gun. To do otherwise would be really counterproductive and inconsistent.

I'm not sure why there's a need for a distinction? If a ki blast had a battle power equivalent of 260, the person who fired it would have been 260 when the blast was launched.

Yet he can still bleed from bullets when he isn't ready to take them, even Kuririn in the beginning of Saiyan arc.

Again, gag scenes. The Krillin example is a particularly extreme gag scene, like Goku getting hurt by a rock, because at this point Krillin wasn't far off from "small nuclear bomb" level, and far beyond "battleship's main gun" level.

But what if he wasn't prepared to take them?

He would have taken minor damage, but nothing serious.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

When is that stated? And again, why not just gather the dragon balls?

He said it when he first met Goku.

When I say "physical strength", I mean purely physical power completely independent of ki. When I say "a bear is physically stronger than a human", I don't think the bear and human necessarily need to have different battle power numbers.

I'm not sure if it works like that, since ki is increased through physical training. Ki is part of one's physical strength.

I just think it's pretty clear that the blurb is referring to battle power. It's the battle power section of the book, they specifically mention when non-battle power factors are at work and didn't do so here, and the two sentences are written in a way that basically outright says that the "battleship's main gun" comment was referring to the battle power displayed above the blurb.

Well, I don't think so. It's the battle power section, but it doesn't talk purely about numbers. Otherwise, it would have a list of numbers, with fighters with that BP as examples.

That could be put down to possible differences between Namekians and humans, and the fact that he was sealed in a jar.

The fact that he was sealed in a jar, and wasn't even a warrior-type Namekian, makes it even more unrealistic for Piccolo to only get that much weaker, while Kame-sennin grew as weak as you think.

I'm not sure why there's a need for a distinction? If a ki blast had a battle power equivalent of 260, the person who fired it would have been 260 when the blast was launched.

SS Goku can't destroy Earth with a punch, that's why.

Again, gag scenes. The Krillin example is a particularly extreme gag scene, like Goku getting hurt by a rock, because at this point Krillin wasn't far off from "small nuclear bomb" level, and far beyond "battleship's main gun" level.

Yeah, but he has normal human's skin. Your skin doesn't become more durable through training, it's the ki that protects it, like it protects the clothes. When he isn't using his ki, he can get hurt like any other human. Goku's skin, on the other hand, is durable enough to take the bullets by itself.

He would have taken minor damage, but nothing serious.

You can't know that.

[RandomGuy96]

He said that he didn't kill Piccolo because it wasn't his

And did he say he just suddenly decided to right before the Budokai began?

And again, why not use the dragon balls?

I'm not sure if it works like that, since ki is increased through physical training.

Toiryama stated that past a certain level, you'll have to train your ki rather than your muscles.

Well, I don't think so. It's the battle power section, but it doesn't talk purely about numbers. Otherwise, it would have a list of numbers, with fighters with that BP as examples.

Why doesn't it talk purely about numbers? What implies that? Why didn't it actually point out that Goku's physical strength was what was equivalent to a battleship's main gun, and instead basically say that it was the number 100? "His has the destructive power of a battleship's main gun". His battle power. Why didn't it bring up physical attributes at all when in the very last blurb, it went out of its way to point that the battle power number of 10 couldn't actually take a bullet, and that was due to Goku's saiyan body?

The fact that he was sealed in a jar, and wasn't even a warrior-type Namekian, makes it even more unrealistic for Piccolo to only get that much weaker, while Kame-sennin grew as weak as you think.

Not if Namekians don't decrease in power like humans do.

And by your levels, which run on the unfounded assumption that Roshi had to be at a certain level at the beginning of the series, someone nearly half as strong as "small nuclear bomb" level in terms of battle power can still be killed by a single hand grenade, and someone far stronger than him can still be hurt by bullets.

SS Goku can't destroy Earth with a punch, that's why.

You know that how? It shouldn't matter whether he's punching or throwing a ki blast, they're both using the same sources of energy, and both do the same amount of damage to whatever fighter they hit.

Yeah, but he has normal human's skin. Your skin doesn't become more durable through training, it's the ki that protects it, like it protects the clothes. When he isn't using his ki, he can get hurt like any other human. Goku's skin, on the other hand, is durable enough to take the bullets by itself.

And you're assuming that everyone walks around at a battle power of 5 without protecting themselves at all? If that were the case, any random asshole could kill any Z-fighter (except Buu) just by shooting them in their sleep.

You can't know that.

You know that it won't?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And did he say he just suddenly decided to right before the Budokai began?

Yes. He was training Goku so that he can get strong enough to kill Piccolo, but after Goku learned that killing Piccolo would also kill Kami, Kami knew that Goku wouldn't kill Piccolo, so he got desperate and stole Shen's body to seal Piccolo, but he failed. He even tried to kill him after Goku KOed him, but he was stopped.

And again, why not use the dragon balls?

Because it would count as "God interferes to the mortal worlds' problems" I guess.

Toiryama stated that past a certain level, you'll have to train your ki rather than your muscles.

To increase the strength of your muscles.

Why doesn't it talk purely about numbers? What implies that? Why didn't it actually point out that Goku's physical strength was what was equivalent to a battleship's main gun, and instead basically say that it was the number 100? "His has the destructive power of a battleship's main gun". His battle power. Why didn't it bring up physical attributes at all when in the very last blurb, it went out of its way to point that the battle power number of 10 couldn't actually take a bullet, and that was due to Goku's saiyan body?

Because it doesn't talk purely about numbers, it talks about people & their numbers.

Not if Namekians don't decrease in power like humans do.

I don't see why they would be different.

And by your levels, which run on the unfounded assumption that Roshi had to be at a certain level at the beginning of the series, someone nearly half as strong as "small nuclear bomb" level in terms of battle power can still be killed by a single hand grenade, and someone far stronger than him can still be hurt by bullets.

When he isn't protected by ki, yes, I do believe so.

You know that how? It shouldn't matter whether he's punching or throwing a ki blast, they're both using the same sources of energy, and both do the same amount of damage to whatever fighter they hit.

Cell punched the ground with all his might, and the Earth is still there.

And you're assuming that everyone walks around at a battle power of 5 without protecting themselves at all?

No, I'm assuming that ki doesn't protect them all the time.

If that were the case, any random asshole could kill any Z-fighter (except Buu) just by shooting them in their sleep.

They can even poison them.

You know that it won't?

I don't believe he will survive.


I don't think there is any point in continuing this discussion. Apparently, we view things differently: you measure everything in a number, while I believe there is more to a fighter than his number. It's pointless.

[RandomGuy96]

Yes. He was training Goku so that he can get strong enough to kill Piccolo, but after Goku learned that killing Piccolo would also kill Kami, Kami knew that Goku wouldn't kill Piccolo, so he got desperate and stole Shen's body to seal Piccolo, but he failed. He even tried to kill him after Goku KOed him, but he was stopped.

What's the timeline here? When did Goku learn about that, again?

Sending Goku to kill Piccolo would essentially be suicide, no different than sending Popo.

Because it would count as "God interferes to the mortal worlds' problems" I guess.

Piccolo isn't a mortal world problem. He's a demon created by Kami himself.

To increase the strength of your muscles.

...by pumping them with ki. The muscles themselves don't matter. Krillin is five feet tall, yet by the end of the Freeza arc could easily kill, say, Oozaru Nappa.

Because it doesn't talk purely about numbers, it talks about people & their numbers.

No, it doesn't. It is a section in the book talking specifically about battle powers. It says that someone with a battle power of 100 has a certain amount of destructive power. Unlike with a few other characters, it doesn't mention ANYTHING about him other than his battle power of 100. Not his size, not his strength, not his biology, just his battle power. In a sentence right after one talking about his battle power, and how this form has a much higher battle power than his base form, it says "his has the destructive power of a battleship's main gun".

It is blindingly obvious that it is referring to BATTLE POWER. Again: if it was talking about anything other than battle power, it would have been mentioned, just like the blurb RIGHT BEFORE this one mentioned that Goku's physical attributes helped him survive bullets.

I don't see why they would be different.

My question to you is "why would they be even remotely similar?". Namekians are not humans. They are from another planet. They are from another galaxy. They have extremely long natural life spans. They survive entirely on water. They are naturally far more powerful.

When he isn't protected by ki, yes, I do believe so.

He WAS being protected by his ki. He didn't just suddenly decide to power down to a level of 5 in that exact moment, mid-battle, for no reason. Yet the grenade still messed him up badly. Which fits perfectly with RRA Goku being vulnerable to one shotgun blast, post-training Goku getting hurt by rocket launchers and sniper rifles, and 406mm naval artillery being far beyond both of them.

Cell punched the ground with all his might, and the Earth is still there.

...for the same reason every single ki attack thrown by anyone past Vegeta doesn't destroy the planet they're on.

No, I'm assuming that ki doesn't protect them all the time.

Nothing suggests that, except gag scenes. If this were the case, then simply being caught off guard from any attack would be instant death.

They can even poison them.

That has nothing to do with physical durability.

I don't believe he will survive.

You can't know that.

Apparently, we view things differently: you measure everything in a number, while I believe there is more to a fighter than his number.

No, I think there is far more to a fighter than the number. But, in a very simple, straight forward test of durability, yes, the number should pretty much tell you everything.

I am not one of those people who obsesses over percentage gaps or insists that every battle with the same numbers has to play out the exact same way. I'm just getting extremely frustrated by you repeatedly twisting statements and feats from the manga and guidebooks to take away their whole original meaning (many times stronger doesn't actually mean many times stronger, a grenade nearly killing Tao doesn't mean anything since he suppressed himself mid battle for some reason, a power comparison made in a section about battle power in a paragraph that references nothing but battle power right under a battle power is not referring to battle power, etc.) just to fit your pre-established notions and your numbers, as well as your preference that Roshi not be much weaker at the 21st than he was at the 22nd because... realism?