Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Fox666]

Dragonball battles aren't pure battle power. Freeza used a stretegy to hit Goku - he can move his "barrier" to an extend the Kamehameha can't.

[p123]

I don't see how that contradicts anything I said, strategy and tactics are definitley an important part of battle....

Point being, Freeza lost power and fought evenly with Goku because he was a superior tacticiain would be a viable response.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Goku wasn't being serious. Even after fighting with Freeza, donating Freeza energy and then releasing that huge blast to kill him, he wasn't anywhere near running out of juice. Was he even breathing hard?

I believe Goku was being serious, and that he was fighting Freeza evenly with all his power. He was coughing up after that beat-up Freeza gave him, almost got hit by his surprise punch, wasn't overpowering Freeza's ki barrier with his Kamehameha, was panting after he came back from being hit by the barrier and was taking blows from Freeza. He was most likely stronger than Freeza, but it did look like he was fighting with all his might as he was exchanging blows with him, even if he wasn't breathing hard by the end.

You also have to take into account that Freeza was losing energy because he'd burned out his ki. Goku didn't look like he was playing around and if he really wanted to humiliate Freeza and avenge Kuririn, he wouldn't be taking those blows. And besides, we didn't see the whole fight. That's why I don't buy the "Goku held back because wanted to have a good fight" theory, because the whole point of letting Freeza go 100% was so he could defeat him when he was at his strongest, and while he obviously did do that, I don't think he'd purposely hold back just for a good fight if he could let rip from the start and beat the crap out of him.

[p123]

Nothing suggests Goku was toying around on Freeza. The only issue of Goku being soft on Freeza had more or less to do with Goku actually giving Freeza a chance to live, giving him his ki and whatnot, instead of just taking him out. Goku fought his hardest until the point he thought Freeza couldn't keep up anymore. If Goku thought Freeza was nothing the entire time, he would have ended the fight a lot earlier and said the same thing.

[uzuni]

I've done a few alterations here and there...anyway, here's the new list:

Cell Arc Revised

Arrival of Trunks

Trunks: 3,500,000
Freeza: 135,000,000
King Cold: 90,000,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 175,000,000
GokuL 4,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 200,000,000

The Androids

Yamcha: 100,000
No. 20: 75,000,000
No. 19: 50,000,000
Goku: 5,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku (full power he was never able to bring out): 250,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 125,000,000
No. 19 (after absorbing Goku's chi): 100,000,000
Piccolo (suppressed): 60,000,000
Vegeta: 5,200,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 260,000,000
Gohan: 500,000
No. 20 (after absorbing Piccolo's chi): 135,000,000
Piccolo: 180,000,000
Trunks: 4,500,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 225,000,000
No. 18: 310,000,000
No. 17: 360,000,000
Tenshinhan: 150,000

Cell

Piccolo (fused with Kami): 360,000,000
Cell: 270,000,000
No. 17: 360,000,000
Cell (after absorbing countless humans): 475,000,000
No. 16: 475,000,000
Semi-Perfect Cell: 835,000,000

Cell's Perfection

Vegeta (after training in room of spirit and time): 13,500,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 675,000,000
Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1,012,500,000
Semi-Perfect Cell: 835,000,000
Trunks (after training in room of spirit and time): 13,300,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 665,000,000
Ascended Super Saiyan Trunks: 997,500,000
Perfect Cell (heavily suppressed): 1,300,000,000
Kuririn: 125,000
Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks: 1,662,500,000
Super Saiyan Goku (half-power): 1,200,000,000

History of Trunks

Super Saiyan Trunks: 2,250,000
Gohan: 3,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan: 150,000,000
No. 17: 205,000,000
Trunks (3 years later): 3,500,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 175,000,000

The Cell Game

Super Saiyan Goku: 2,400,000,000
Perfect Cell (suppressed): 2,600,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan: 2,500,000,000
Cell Jr: 1,300,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1,350,000,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 1,330,000,000
Piccolo: 720,000,000
Tenshinhan: 175,000
Kuririn: 150,000
Yamcha: 125,000
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 5,000,000,000
Perfect Cell: 4,000,000,000
Perfect Cell (power-weighted): 5,200,000,000
Super Perfect Cell: 4,600,000,000
Trunks: 26,600,000
Vegeta: 27,000,000

Save the Future

Trunks: 26,600,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 1,330,000,000
No. 18: 175,000,000
No. 17: 205,000,000
Trunks (a year later): 27,000,000
Super Saiyan Trunks: 1,350,000,000
Cell: 300,000,000

Any comments? Suggestions?

[p123]

18 >> Cell Pre > Vegeta


18 says that Vegeta is a straight up weakling and is helpless against her. Piccolo W/weights is stated to rival 17 and 18. Which would suggest that 17 and 18 are not all that far off from each other as well. Although 17 is clearly stronger..Piccolo even after getting some of his energy absorbed and regenerating his arm, is fully confident in killing cell easily.. This Cell is stated to be superior to Vegeta by Vegeta himself.. Cell does appear to be a bit worried by Vegeta though so it shouldn't be crazy measures but...

17 = Kamiccolo
18
Kamiccolo W/weights
Cell Pre Absorbtion
SSJ Vegeta
SSJ Goku
SSJ Trunks



Also,

USSJ2 Trunks
Perfect Cell Suppressed ~ 50% MSSJ Goku
Initial Perfect Cell ~ USSJ Vegeta >= USSJ Trunks
Full Power Semi Cell
Initial Semi Cell ~ SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Trunks



In the future timeline, Trunks is a little bit stronger than Gohan was when he died..


Cell Powered Up ~ MSSJ Gohan > MSSJ Goku

Your margins are way too close, Cell would easily beat Goku with that level of power if he used his full speed like he did against Gohan.

[uzuni]

18 >> Cell Pre > Vegeta


18 says that Vegeta is a straight up weakling and is helpless against her. Piccolo W/weights is stated to rival 17 and 18. Which would suggest that 17 and 18 are not all that far off from each other as well. Although 17 is clearly stronger..Piccolo even after getting some of his energy absorbed and regenerating his arm, is fully confident in killing cell easily.. This Cell is stated to be superior to Vegeta by Vegeta himself.. Cell does appear to be a bit worried by Vegeta though so it shouldn't be crazy measures but...

17 = Kamiccolo
18
Kamiccolo W/weights
Cell Pre Absorbtion
SSJ Vegeta
SSJ Goku
SSJ Trunks



Also,

USSJ2 Trunks
Perfect Cell Suppressed ~ 50% MSSJ Goku
Initial Perfect Cell ~ USSJ Vegeta >= USSJ Trunks
Full Power Semi Cell
Initial Semi Cell ~ SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Trunks



In the future timeline, Trunks is a little bit stronger than Gohan was when he died..


Cell Powered Up ~ MSSJ Gohan > MSSJ Goku

Your margins are way too close, Cell would easily beat Goku with that level of power if he used his full speed like he did against Gohan.

This may seem like a very noobish questions but what's ~ represent? Approximately even? Something along those lines?

[p123]

Yes....

[uzuni]

How's it look now?

[Fox666]

Vegeta (after training in room of spirit and time): 13,500,000
Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1,012,500,000
Trunks (after training in room of spirit and time): 13,300,000
Ascended Super Saiyan Trunks: 997,500,000
Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks: 1,662,500,000

Hahaha, I like to avoid these crazy detailed numbers. Toriyama seems to dislike that kind of situation, his numbers are always rounded (i.e. Kaio-ken 16,000, or SSJ 150 million).

Initial Semi Cell ~ SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Trunks

I don't believe that would be the case. While #16 states Vegeta got stronger, I don't think that means Vegeta as a SSJ had any chance against Semi-perfect Cell.

[uzuni]

Vegeta (after training in room of spirit and time): 13,500,000
Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1,012,500,000
Trunks (after training in room of spirit and time): 13,300,000
Ascended Super Saiyan Trunks: 997,500,000
Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks: 1,662,500,000

Hahaha, I like to avoid these crazy detailed numbers. Toriyama seems to dislike that kind of situation, his numbers are always rounded (i.e. Kaio-ken 16,000, or SSJ 150 million).

Initial Semi Cell ~ SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Trunks

I don't believe that would be the case. While #16 states Vegeta got stronger, I don't think that means Vegeta as a SSJ had any chance against Semi-perfect Cell.

Lol, the only reason they're that specific is because of the multipliers I used.

And yes, I agree with that. If Vegeta was indeed superior to Cell in his SSJ form, he wouldn't have had to transform at all.

[p123]

Hahaha, I like to avoid these crazy detailed numbers. Toriyama seems to dislike that kind of situation, his numbers are always rounded (i.e. Kaio-ken 16,000, or SSJ 150 million).

Think your wrong here. The Daiz likes to round numbers, AT doesn't appear to feel that way... 322/334/408/416/710/924/1307/1330 are not all well rounded numbers...

But I agree, as power level guys we should try to make the numbers as pretty as possible, the harder the read, the less interested people are in them. You will notice all of my numbers have what I like to call " clean " numbers...

I don't believe that would be the case. While #16 states Vegeta got stronger, I don't think that means Vegeta as a SSJ had any chance against Semi-perfect Cell

Yea 16 doesn't offer much, but Trunks does. Nothing contradicts Trunks either, so there's no real reason to not make it happen...

And yes, I agree with that. If Vegeta was indeed superior to Cell in his SSJ form, he wouldn't have had to transform at all.

That is one way to look at it.. As long as you feel the same way about Base Vegetto then I can understand your approach. But the fact is, Trunks suggests that SSJ Vegeta is on par with Initial Semi Cell. And Vegeta transforming could be for a number of reasons, seeing as how SSJ Vegeta is on par, obviously he would want the advantage, Vegeta never likes to fight evenly.
Without Trunks suggestion I would agree with you. As I also see Buuhan >>> Base Vegetto ...




Also, this is more speculative, but don't you think Gohan attaining SSJ so quickly in the Rosat would suggest Gohan is at least near the Freeza Saga base saiyans range? 2-3 million or so? Obviously Future Kid Trunks is probably one of the weakest SSJs know to date, but I don't think Gohan from the Androids Saga would be that weak, hell you have Gohan Androids Saga about as strong as I have Gohan Post Zenkai on Namek...

[Fox666]

Think your wrong here. The Daiz likes to round numbers, AT doesn't appear to feel that way... 322/334/408/416/710/924/1307/1330 are not all well rounded numbers...

Toriyama give up on that soon.

But the fact is, Trunks suggests that SSJ Vegeta is on par with Initial Semi Cell.

I don't think Trunks suggests anything about Vegeta SSJ base...

Also, this is more speculative, but don't you think Gohan attaining SSJ so quickly in the Rosat would suggest Gohan is at least near the Freeza Saga base saiyans range? 2-3 million or so? Obviously Future Kid Trunks is probably one of the weakest SSJs know to date, but I don't think Gohan from the Androids Saga would be that weak, hell you have Gohan Androids Saga about as strong as I have Gohan Post Zenkai on Namek...

As you said yourself, future kid Trunks is very weak. As a SSJ he is no match for Gohan's base, and Gohan SSJ lost to #17 with half of his power. So there is no "minimum" for attaining SSJ.

Gohan could very well have less than 3 million (Goku base) as a SSJ.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Initial Semi Cell ~ SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Trunks

I don't believe that would be the case. While #16 states Vegeta got stronger, I don't think that means Vegeta as a SSJ had any chance against Semi-perfect Cell.

Trunks was surprised that Vegeta was going to go to Grade 2 already. He said, "He's going to do it already! He's going to transform into it!"

[p123]

Trunks was surprised that Vegeta was going to go to Grade 2 already. He said, "He's going to do it already! He's going to transform into it!"

Exactly. Which would imply that SSJ Vegeta isn't all that far off from Initial Semi Cell.

I don't think Trunks suggests anything about Vegeta SSJ base...

Does that even make sense? What the hell you talking about boy? Lol.. Either way SSJ Vegeta ~ Initial Semi Cell, is at least suggested...

Gohan could very well have less than 3 million (Goku base) as a SSJ.

Could be, seeing as how I personally brought up Future Kid Trunks, did you really find it neccessary to repeat what I said? That's quite odd. Yes, although the Future SSJs are much weaker than Goku was when he originally attained SSJ, Goku calls Gohan strong and raves about how fast he progressed.

Not a solid thing, but I would think that would be more likely. Hardly anything factual here though. Just saying 500k seems awfully low, seeing as how Gohan is already around 200k range against 1st form Freeza, then gets a significant zenkai, then trains for 3 years on top of that...

[Fox666]

I don't think Trunks suggests anything about Vegeta SSJ base...

Does that even make sense? What the hell you talking about boy? Lol.. Either way SSJ Vegeta ~ Initial Semi Cell, is at least suggested...

Yeah, sorry, I meant "SSJ base power", confusing I know.

Yes, although the Future SSJs are much weaker than Goku was when he originally attained SSJ, Goku calls Gohan strong and raves about how fast he progressed.

Compared to himself at Gohan's age, Gohan is a lot strong. As I remember Goku even said that.

Trunks was surprised that Vegeta was going to go to Grade 2 already. He said, "He's going to do it already! He's going to transform into it!"

I always read that line as mere drama about the form beying saiyans.

[p123]

Yeah, sorry, I meant "SSJ base power", confusing I know.

There's no such thing as a SSJ base at this point. I think your referring to a suppressed SSJ power from Vegeta right? MSSJ is the first time suppression of SSJ power is ever really suggested. So SSJ Vegeta against Initial Semi Cell should indeed be SSJ Vegeta's full power...

Compared to himself at Gohan's age, Gohan is a lot strong. As I remember Goku even said that

Could be the case... But like I said, natural progression should override all of that. Gohan is definitley 200k range against Freeza. Big Zenkai on top of that. Then, 3 years of training on top of that.. 500k seems very measly after going through all of that to just be around Vegeta's power against 1st form Freeza? You know?

I always read that line as mere drama about the form beying saiyans

Think about it this way... This is what I'm good at IMO... Ask yourself two questions...


1) What did Trunks say?

He's going to do it already!


2) Why did Trunks say it...

The only realistic option is to think that Trunks is aware of SSJ Vegeta not needing to transform at this moment. If Vegeta needed to transform to combat Cell at this level at this point, Trunks would hardly be suprised. He would think oh, of course Vegeta is going to transform , he is significantly weaker at the moment. Logically, Vegeta as a SSJ being on Initial Semi Cell's level of strength or somewhere near it, makes the statement make sense.

[Fox666]

Well, Cell simply ignored Vegeta. Vegeta was already in SSJ state, and Cell was like to not care about Vegeta no matter what.

[Senzu_Bean]

Initial Semi Cell ~ SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Trunks

I don't believe that would be the case. While #16 states Vegeta got stronger, I don't think that means Vegeta as a SSJ had any chance against Semi-perfect Cell.

Trunks was surprised that Vegeta was going to go to Grade 2 already. He said, "He's going to do it already! He's going to transform into it!"

Trunks could very well be referring to the fact they don't know how strong Cell really is now and emphasizing how Vegeta isn't even going to try his chance with Super Saiyan.

Also, this is more speculative, but don't you think Gohan attaining SSJ so quickly in the Rosat would suggest Gohan is at least near the Freeza Saga base saiyans range? 2-3 million or so? Obviously Future Kid Trunks is probably one of the weakest SSJs know to date, but I don't think Gohan from the Androids Saga would be that weak, hell you have Gohan Androids Saga about as strong as I have Gohan Post Zenkai on Namek...

I personally have Gohan's normal full power the same as his enraged power on Namek, basically 1 million and half, when he attacked Freeza's 3rd transformation. Just like I have his normal full power against the Saiyans around 1300, his enraged power against Raditz. The fact is Gohan is pretty much useless compared to the likes of everybody but Yamcha at that time.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Trunks was surprised that Vegeta was going to go to Grade 2 already. He said, "He's going to do it already! He's going to transform into it!"

Trunks could very well be referring to the fact they don't know how strong Cell really is now and emphasizing how Vegeta isn't even going to try his chance with Super Saiyan.

I think that's a stretch. Besides, if they don't know how strong Cell is now, wouldn't the best strategy be to go to SSj Grade 2, rather than risk getting killed before he can even use his full power? As we saw, second form Cell hadn't even shown his full power until Super Vegeta was smoking him.