SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[RandomGuy96]

That's what I think.

[Bando]

Goku talked about the fusion boost in terms of addition when considering a hypothetical fusion with Mr Satan.

Actually that might just prove it's multiplication, since Satan for sure isn't close to a thousandth of Goku.

[Draken]

Goku talked about the fusion boost in terms of addition when considering a hypothetical fusion with Mr Satan.

Actually that might just prove it's multiplication, since Satan for sure isn't close to a thousandth of Goku.

Or a millionth... or by some people's bloated levels a billionth...

[Hitiro]

To be honest I don't think Goku would have suggested getting the boys to fuse if fusion was simply a addition of both their respective powers.

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

Goku points out that both Metamoran's were extremely weak but by using the fusion dance they transformed into a strong warrrior. Simple addition would not make up for such a stark contrasting difference in their power levels.

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Again, Goku is incredibly confident about them fusing. If the fusion was a simple addition then there would be no way that their fusion would be considered as an option.. If we put Goten and Trunks at Vegeta's base power level, which we know they are nowhere near because Goku snuffs at their maximum as if it isn't impressive, then that would amount to them just being as strong as Vegeta's SSJ2 form as SSJ Gotenks. Goku outright states that as SSJ2 he would be destroyed by Fat Boo, so I honestly don't see why fusion would be just and addition of their powers.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Do you have the exact quote? It can simply be interpretated as fused saiyans > saiyans. Or fusion > new Super Saiyan forms, because the base fusions never did anything.

The concept of fusion is also a form of leveling up. How did that concept come to be?
If I remember correctly, I was talking about how, as a concept, “there’s nothing stronger than a Super Saiyan”, and Katsura-kun (Masakazu Katsura-sensei), who I usually just joke around and say idiotic things with, said, “There’s no choice but for them to fuse, then.” So I said, “Whoa, sometimes even you say something good. It’s the first time you’ve ever made yourself useful.” (laughs) That’s how that plot point was born.

Could've swor the SEG said something about it being like addition. At least, I see people cite that a lot on various forums.

Nope. These is no mention of Fusion.

On p.63 it describes the Potara fusion as being closer to multiplication rather than simple addition in the way it increases power.

[Kamiccolo9]

Could've swor the SEG said something about it being like addition. At least, I see people cite that a lot on various forums.

I think that people see the Potara being said to be "like multiplication," and then just assume that the Fusion Dance is "like addition," since it's different from the Potara.

[Saiga]

I always figured that the comment meant that a fused Super Saiyan would be stronger than a non-fused Super Saiyan. If Toriyama was trying to make the point of regular fusion being stronger than Super Saiyan, don't you think he would have had his fused characters stay in base?

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah, I seriously have no idea how you interpreted that line like that. Toriyama didn't even say that fusion was stronger than SS, that was a lie. He basically said his main characters were extremely strong and he needed a way for them to get stronger ("there's nothing stronger than A Super Saiyan), and so took a joking suggestion about just adding them together to heart.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

I think fusion mutlipiler (80x-100x) > 50x SSJ multiplier puts Base Gotenks easily in the billions. Then Super Saiyan Gotenks in nearly hundred billions. It could make SSjin Gotenks stronger than SSjin 3 Goku.

[Hitiro]

Frankly. If the fusion dance offered nothing but addition of their two powers then if Goku and Vegeta were to do fusion at SSJ2 they would only be at 50% of SSJ3 Goku.. I find it highly unlikely with this knowledge Goku chose to teach two kids who are a good deal weaker than him and Vegeta the fusion dance and send them to fight Fat Boo with only SSJ as a transformation.. They may be a great deal more powerful than a regular SSJ but they would still be weaker than SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. The way Goku talked they should be closer to his SSJ3's level of power which would mean that the fusion dance isn't just simple addition. There is a modifier there somewhere. Given that, the multiplier for Goku and Vegeta to be close to SSJ3 Goku as SSJ Gogeta would need to be at least 4x. Goten and Trunks are weaker than Goku and Vegeta so the multiplier has to be higher than 4x for them to be close to SSJ3 Goku..

[RandomGuy96]

...who's saying that it's pure addition?

But the Daizenshuu at one point does seem to imply that is, indirectly saying SS2 teen Gohan =< SS Gotenks (pre) < SS2 Majin Vegeta.

SON GOTEN
A gifted child who mastered Super Saiyan at a young age.
By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten posses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan. Furthermore, he merges with Trunks through a technique known as Fusion.

In order to defeat Majin Buu, who boasted absolute strength, Goku taught Fusion to Goten and Trunks as a last resort, and thus Gotenks was born. After several failures, they finally succeeded in merging together. The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

[Hitiro]

In order to defeat Majin Buu, who boasted absolute strength, Goku taught Fusion to Goten and Trunks as a last resort, and thus Gotenks was born. After several failures, they finally succeeded in merging together. The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

To be fair, this quote doesn't exactly clarify in what areas Gotenks surpassed Vegeta. Is it talking about strength in the essence of transformations? Is it saying Base Gotenks surpassed Base Vegeta? Is it saying Base Gotenks surpassed SSJ Vegeta? Is it saying Base Gotenks surpassed SSJ2 Vegeta? Is it saying SSJ Gotenks surpassed SSJ2 Vegeta? Or is it implying that Gotenks only surpasses Vegeta with SSJ3 and that Gotenks is in fact weaker than all other forms of Vegeta. To be honest, I don't think Piccolo wouldn't have called out SSJ Gotenks if his strength was the least bit inferior to SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. Piccolo knows full well that somebody of SSJ2 Majin Vegeta's caliber isn't strong enough to beat Fat Boo. There is no way he would shrug off the fact that SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and then go on to question him about his speed; which I maintain was purely down to Piccolo wanting to know if he can beat Fat Boo in the 30 mins if their power levels are close.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Toriyama was trying to make the point of regular fusion being stronger than Super Saiyan, don't you think he would have had his fused characters stay in base?

But even if Fusion is stronger than Super Saiyan, it doesn't mean that it's stronger than Super Saiyan 2 & 3, which wouldn't make Gotenks strong enough. Combining Fusion (which is stronger than SS) & Super Saiyan would give the best result.

I don't see any problem with interpreting the line as Fusion > Super Saiyan.

[Kakarot88]

Goku talked about the fusion boost in terms of addition when considering a hypothetical fusion with Mr Satan.

Actually that might just prove it's multiplication, since Satan for sure isn't close to a thousandth of Goku.

This is a fan translation since actual print posts are not allowed
<Link to scanslations snipped by moderator>

But the two convey the same message: ie Goku thinks it will add power but given that the two become one entity it actually might make a weaker warrior than Goku on his own given Satan's lack of knowledge of ki. All in all addition, multiplication, what's it matter? Why would either make a difference when discussing why someone thinks Gotenks is greater than Goku? I mean I have never known the author to give a damn about numbers or logistics of what he wrote lol

[RandomGuy96]

To be fair, this quote doesn't exactly clarify in what areas Gotenks surpassed Vegeta. Is it talking about strength in the essence of transformations? Is it saying Base Gotenks surpassed Base Vegeta? Is it saying Base Gotenks surpassed SSJ Vegeta? Is it saying Base Gotenks surpassed SSJ2 Vegeta? Is it saying SSJ Gotenks surpassed SSJ2 Vegeta? Or is it implying that Gotenks only surpasses Vegeta with SSJ3 and that Gotenks is in fact weaker than all other forms of Vegeta. To be honest, I don't think Piccolo wouldn't have called out SSJ Gotenks if his strength was the least bit inferior to SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. Piccolo knows full well that somebody of SSJ2 Majin Vegeta's caliber isn't strong enough to beat Fat Boo. There is no way he would shrug off the fact that SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and then go on to question him about his speed; which I maintain was purely down to Piccolo wanting to know if he can beat Fat Boo in the 30 mins if their power levels are close.

All that seems extremely weaselly. It never said base Gotenks surpassed Vegeta or implied ANYTHING of the sort- it said Gotenks (in general) surpassed Vegeta (in general). Seems extremely clear and simple.

I'm not saying that's the case (it's dumb, but not impossible), I'm just saying that's what the Daizenhuu said.

[Mjb1985]

I disregard the guidebook here, completely goes against the manga.

[RandomGuy96]

As do I. One of the rare cases I do so.

[Mjb1985]

Now that's my type of fan. If it makes sense sure why not? But if it doesn't, why oh why!

[hleV]

The funny thing about that Daizenshuu statement is that it says "suprassed Vegeta and others".

• It says Vegeta, not Goku. So Gotenks didn't surpass Goku.
• It also says "others". So Gotenks surpassed not only Vegeta, but at least 2 more people that aren't Goku. Gohan & Piccolo?

So it turns out that pre-ROSAT Gotenks < Vegeta/Gohan/Piccolo < post-ROSAT Gotenks < Goku.

Whatever Gotenks/Vegeta's form it meant, it makes no sense whatsoever. So yeah, fuck Daizenshuu.

[RandomGuy96]

...I don't see why "the others" couldn't include Goku. To me it just means "other strong people"; Goku, Buu, post Z sword Gohan.