Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[fadeddreams5]

I have not read much of this thread and have no idea where people are pulling numbers from. All I know is Gohan is the strongest non-fused being at the end of the Kid Buu saga. There is no implication anywhere that can be used to debate the true power of Goku, Vegeta, or Gohan in EoZ. This seems like an argument of who people WANT to be stronger...

Gohan fanboys can't seem to accept that there are people stronger than him

Can't speak for everyone, but what I personally can't stand is the inconsistency of his power and how they continue to downgrade his abilities. It wouldn't bug me at all if it was a case of Goku flat-out surpassing him, or if they gave a reasonable explanation as to where his ultimate powers went. Since the Buu saga, they've been taking away his strength. You don't build a character up, reveal that he has infinitely more potential than his father, and then just take that all away because you like your other protagonist better. It's bad writing/story-telling.

[Truhan]

I reconsidered my stance on Goku being stronger than Gohan with Vegeta as #2 when they are at base, because #1 has been used before without considering every character.

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

Chapter: 357 (DBZ 163), P8.3
Context: considering his defeat by the androids
Vegeta: “I-I’m the prince ,the most elite of the Saiyans…Now that I’ve become a Super Saiyan, I should be #1 in the entire universe…Is it because my opponents are androids…Is this my limit?...”

Even if Majin Buu should be alive and well by the time of the "one statement to rule them all", the only people Vegeta considered were him and Goku, and that won't contradict Gohan being weaker than him at base, just like the Babidi/Buu saga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku even tells Goten that fighting Good Buu wouldn't be an issue if he didn't keep slacking off with training.

Why would Goten be unable to go Super Saiyan, or even beyond Super Saiyan, if he had trained? Goku would have transformed, if Oob had been a trained fighter.

[NeoKING]

Because other Goku, Gotenks is the only being that can access SSJ3, which - despite what we were shown - probably has the potential to become the strongest Saiyan naturally transformation. Ultimate Gohan was Gohan with all his implied powers ("You were stronger when you fought Cell") brought forth. Ultimate Gohan is probably Gohan had he not slacked in 7 years, with power inflation included, as opposed to a bland "This is all your dormant powers brought forth," because Gohan already had his dormant power released ... twice, IIRC.

Or at least something special. Give him a reason to call him "Ultimate [Warrior] Gohan," like the ability to conjure the Z-Sword and use it masterfully, or something.

[Truhan]

Or at least something special. Give him a reason to call him "Ultimate [Warrior] Gohan," like the ability to conjure the Z-Sword and use it masterfully, or something.

Go play Super Dragon Ball Z (PS2/ARC) and you'll get Ultimate Gohan in a Kai suit with a sword! I swear, it's fan service without actually being fan service. As for the rest of your post: I agree. The funny thing is that Gohan should be able to surpass his hidden potential by training and transforming, because it works more like a fixed value. Here's an interesting formula to consider:

Power Increase = max(SSJ * Base Power, Hidden Potential) / Base Power

It means that the stronger he gets at base, the more chances SSJ has to become the preferred power increase (as a multiplier of 50), and the less Hidden Potential turns out to be. Gohan got a portion of it permanently unlocked by Guru, and the ability to unleash it all by Old Kai.

[Captain Space]

Old Kai specifically said he can bring out powers beyond people's normal limits or what other potential-unlock power-ups can do. (This in response to Goku telling him he's seen potential-unlocking stuff before and it's nothing new.)

[Truhan]

Goku has to surpass Gohan, eventually, so it can't be beyond a Saiyan's normal limits. Forever, at least.

[MisterGuyMan]

Except clearly, as pointed out, Goku's strength wasn't involved for when Vegeta called him #1. He clearly states that because Goku defeated Ma-jin Buu, he's undeniably #1, yet Goku didn't defeat Buu using his own strength, which means that Vegeta considered him #1 for some reason other than being the strongest (which echoes his statements during Goku's fight with Pure Buu).....



Herms paraphrased the translation as "Boo was weakened by having his absorptions undone."

Given this, and the fact that it's specifically using Vegeta ripping Mr. Buu from his cocoon to illustrate the example, then the guide is indicating that Mr. Buu being ripped out of Evil Buu resulted in him being weakened.

1. Goku is undoubtedly #1 after he defeated Kid Buu not necessarily because he beat Kid Buu. This makes more sense especially considering beating Kid Buu was a team effort. Vegeta deserves as much credit since the plan was his is if this is like a lineal boxing title then Vegeta should be #1 too. The entire scene is about training and getting stronger as well and you can't train and automatically get a title by just passing another fighter on paper.

2. I put more stock into the Daizenshuu quote for several reasons. It's more specific and clear for one. The version of Buu is specified since we know this is the version of Buu that was beaten by Goku. It also specified the time frame when it mentioned "In the End" and "when Goku defeated Buu..." The phrase "strongest in the universe" is also a clear label. The Dragonball Forever guide is less clear. For one we're given a fact with a picture. No one doubts that losing absorptions can lead to weaker Buus. The picture itself is open to interpretation. Fat Buu and Super Buu are there. Both have already been weakened by losing absorbed people. Fat Buu lost power when Evil Buu split from him. Super Buu in that picture just lost Goten, Trunks, Piccolo and Gohan. So the pictured Buus, both of them, lost their absorbed powers. They don't have to be talking about Kid Buu at all.

[h0kuten]

Goku even tells Goten that fighting Good Buu wouldn't be an issue if he didn't keep slacking off with training.

Why would Goten be unable to go Super Saiyan, or even beyond Super Saiyan, if he had trained? Goku would have transformed, if Oob had been a trained fighter.

I see no reason they wouldn't only fighting in their base forms. Goku fights a Ssj3 level opponent in base and even though he is loosing, he doesn't transform beyond his Base form. Thus, the only reasonable interpretation was that Goku's comment regarding Goten beating Buu was a reference to him using his Base form.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

They don't have a reason not to fight in Super Saiyan, Gohan's not in high school anymore.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I see no reason they wouldn't only fighting in their base forms. Goku fights a Ssj3 level opponent in base and even though he is loosing, he doesn't transform beyond his Base form. Thus, the only reasonable interpretation was that Goku's comment regarding Goten beating Buu was a reference to him using his Base form.

I see no reason for them to stick in base, and there is also no statement that Oob is as strong as Pure Boo. Goku says that Oob is as amazing as he expected him, but since he hasn't trained, Goku could mean that Oob has the potential to become as stronger, and stronger, than Pure Boo. Goku didn't transform when he started losing because he stopped the fight there, as he had seen enough from Oob.

[h0kuten]

The only reasonable interpretation for Uub's power is that it was as high as it was before, but because he can only access it while he is enraged means that he needs training to learn to control it. Regardless, while enraged he should be every bit as strong as Pure Boo was.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The only reasonable interpretation for Uub's power is that it was as high as it was before, but because he can only access it while he is enraged means that he needs training to learn to control it. Regardless, while enraged he should be every bit as strong as Pure Boo was.

According to what?

[h0kuten]

The only reasonable interpretation for Uub's power is that it was as high as it was before, but because he can only access it while he is enraged means that he needs training to learn to control it. Regardless, while enraged he should be every bit as strong as Pure Boo was.

According to what?

Logic.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The only reasonable interpretation for Uub's power is that it was as high as it was before, but because he can only access it while he is enraged means that he needs training to learn to control it. Regardless, while enraged he should be every bit as strong as Pure Boo was.

According to what?

Logic.

Could you explain?

[h0kuten]

I have in the two responses above.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't see any explanation there. You assume that Oob is as strong as Boo, so you assume that Goku is talking about base Goten surpassing Boo, and you also assume that he doesn't take transformations into account.

[h0kuten]

I don't see any explanation there. You assume that Oob is as strong as Boo, so you assume that Goku is talking about base Goten surpassing Boo, and you also assume that he doesn't take transformations into account.

a) Goku never transformed.
b) Uub is as strong as he exected.
c) Nobody turned Ssj during the second tournament.
d) It takes a far bigger assumption to think they would turn Ssj. The only other tournament we're shown in Dragonball is one where they didn't (for obvious reasons), but again, it takes a bigger assumption to believe this wouldn't still be the applicable rule. Nothing ever says it isn't so it's best to assume it's still in place.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

a) Goku never transformed.
b) Uub is as strong as he exected.
c) Nobody turned Ssj during the second tournament.
d) It takes a far bigger assumption to think they would turn Ssj. The only other tournament we're shown in Dragonball is one where they didn't (for obvious reasons), but again, it takes a bigger assumption to believe this wouldn't still be the applicable rule. Nothing ever says it isn't so it's best to assume it's still in place.

a) Because he didn't have to.
b) No, he is as amazing as he expected, but without training.
c) By nobody you mean Pan & Goku? Because these are all that we saw fighting, with the first being unable to transform, and the second not having any reason to transform.
d) No, it wouldn't. If Oob was a trained fighter, Goku would have gotten all-out, meaning that he would have transformed.

[h0kuten]

a) Goku never transformed.
b) Uub is as strong as he exected.
c) Nobody turned Ssj during the second tournament.
d) It takes a far bigger assumption to think they would turn Ssj. The only other tournament we're shown in Dragonball is one where they didn't (for obvious reasons), but again, it takes a bigger assumption to believe this wouldn't still be the applicable rule. Nothing ever says it isn't so it's best to assume it's still in place.

a) Because he didn't have to.
b) No, he is as amazing as he expected, but without training.
c) By nobody you mean Pan & Goku? Because these are all that we saw fighting, with the first being unable to transform, and the second not having any reason to transform.
d) No, it wouldn't. If Oob was a trained fighter, Goku would have gotten all-out, meaning that he would have transformed.

a) Because EOZ Goku is equal to his previous Ssj3 self from the Buu Saga.
b) Again, according to Occams Razor, this is incorrect. Goku never says anything about potential, rather, Uuub is as amazing as he expected. The only expectation he had was for someone to be as strong as Pure Boo.
c) Goku never transformed. It takes a bigger assumption to think he would. He didn't. So it's an incorrect view point.
d) Uub was winning the fight. Goku had no reason to go all out because his base form is now as powerful as his Ssj3 form was.