Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:40 pm

I would say somewhere between 1.5x-2x but then again Vegeta was dominating Goku KKx2 which is only a 1.125x difference so idk

Low Tone G · Post by **Low Tone G** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:59 am

Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods power levels in my view

King Kai: 3.500
Bubbles: 1.000 (he can resist to high gravity)
Bulma: 5
Gumayo: 80
Chi-chi: 15
Master Roshi: 200
Oolong: 3
Puar: 2
Pilaf: 2
Mai: 2
Shuu:2
Mr. Satan(Mark): 9
Dende: 10
Videl: 20
Chaozu: 50.000
Yamcha: 150.000
Tenshinhan: 1.000.000
Krillin: 1.200.000
Goten: 4.000.000
Super Saiya-jin: 200.000.000
Trunks: 4.000.000
Super Saiya-jin: 200.000.000
Android 18(Lazuli): 400.000.000
Piccolo: 3.000.000.000
Vegeta: Suppressed - 18.000
Base full power: 20.000.000
Super Saiya-jin: 10.000.000.000
Super Saiya-jin 2: 40.000.000.000
Rage Super Saiyan: 500.000.000.000
Ultimate/Mystic Gohan: Suppressed: 14.000
Full power: 400.000.000.000
Goku: suppressed: 5.000
Base full power: 20.000.000
Super Saiya-jin: 10.000.000.000
Super Saiya-jin 2: 40.000.000.000
Super Saiya-jin 3: 320.000.000.000
Gotenks: 800.000.000
Super Saiya-jin: 40.000.000.000
Super Saiyan 3: 320.000.000.000
God Goku: 6
Beerus: 10
Whis: 15

In view the Super Saiyan is a multiplier just in the case of first transformation or for an untrained Saiyan. I see the x50 the entry for the basic Super Saiyan.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:42 pm

Relating to my previous post, there's also this quote:

Chapter: 490 (DBZ 296), P4.1-2
Context: after Boo smacks Gotenks
Gotenks: “Heh…hehen…! You’re pretty tough, aincha?...W-well, I pla-planned on that…!”
Boo: “Enough already. You’re weak. This isn’t any fun, so I’ll kill you.”

He sits there, doesn't even feel base Gotenks' hits, and says that he's boring, so he'll kill him. But when Gotenks transforms, Buu suddenly starts having fun and screwing around. SS Gotenks is of course much stronger than base Gotenks, but if he was still so weak that Buu still could tank him and probably kill him with his thumb, would the difference really even matter to Buu? Also, why would he be willing to suppress himself to have fun with SS Gotenks (the most common explanation I see for Gotenks surviving Buu and hurting him with the headbutt), yet not do the same with base Gotenks?

IMO it seems likely Toriyama was just drawing the story with the intention of having Buu and SS Gotenks relatively close, SS3 Gotenks not being several times stronger than SS Gotenks, and Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan not being as insanely strong as the story initially suggested (for this, among other reasons).

Another thing that may be notable: IIRC Gotenks managed to survive an indirect hit from one of his own Kamikaze Ghosts. Though that might just be a gag...

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:05 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Another thing that may be notable: IIRC Gotenks managed to survive an indirect hit from one of his own Kamikaze Ghosts. Though that might just be a gag...

Yeah, it's a gag, Piccolo was also hit by the attack(he stood right next to Gotenks).

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:06 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Another thing that may be notable: IIRC Gotenks managed to survive an indirect hit from one of his own Kamikaze Ghosts. Though that might just be a gag...
Yeah, it's a gag, Piccolo was also hit by the attack(he stood right next to Gotenks).

Alright then. I'll just out that alongside base Trunks surviving Super Buu's hit.

The rest of what I wrote still applies, though.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:41 pm

I think Piccolo mentions something about Super Buu going all out after Super Gotenks did that continous ki blast attack, but I'm not sure. In any case you might be right that Super Gotenks and Gohan aren't that far above Goku and Kid Buu. In my latest list Gohan is a Little over 6 times stronger than Goku and I used to have Super Gotenks at least 10x stronger than Goku!
If I was to give Gotenks smaller multiplers for his stronger SS forms, than Goku, then the gap would diminish even more, obviously. Something like this:

SS2 Goku(25) < SS Gotenks(50) < SS2 Gotenks = SS3 Goku(100) < Super Buu(120) < SS3 Gotenks(150) < Gohan(200).

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:09 pm

dbgtFO wrote:I think Piccolo mentions something about Super Buu going all out after Super Gotenks did that continous ki blast attack, but I'm not sure. In any case you might be right that Super Gotenks and Gohan aren't that far above Goku and Kid Buu. In my latest list Gohan is a Little over 6 times stronger than Goku and I used to have Super Gotenks at least 10x stronger than Goku!
If I was to give Gotenks smaller multiplers for his stronger SS forms, than Goku, then the gap would diminish even more, obviously. Something like this:

SS2 Goku(25) < SS Gotenks(50) < SS2 Gotenks = SS3 Goku(100) < Super Buu(120) < SS3 Gotenks(150) < Gohan(200).

He never says that. He never mentions Buu powering up at any point at all, actually (except when tubby got mad). He just said Buu would be angry and more aggressive.

Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!”

That's similar to my current list. Though the gap between Buu and Goku should be bigger, going by Goku's "We're simply no match for his strength!" comment. Buu should be at least 130-140.

If I were to take SS Gotenks vs Buu fight at face value, and just throw transformation multiplier consistency out the window, I'd get something like this:

SS2 Goku (7.5) < base Gotenks (8) < Fat Buu (20) < SS3 Goku (30) < SS Gotenks (40) < Super Buu (50) < SS3 Gotenks (60) < Gohan (80).

As I said, the fight and dialogue seemed to place SS Gotenks stronger than SS3 Goku and in Buu's general tier, and the rest of the arc doesn't portray Goku as many times weaker (just a lot weaker). I'm not really sure of anything yet though, just throwing it out there.

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:50 pm

Do you guys think pre Zenkai Vegeta stomped first form Zarbon?

Low Tone G · Post by **Low Tone G** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:31 pm

I view SSJ Gotenks to be slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku using a living body. Goku possibly could have calculated from personal experience that Gotenks could be enough strong to replace him, but only with training in ROSAT. So I view Base Gotenks pre-Rosat weaker than SSJ Goku, and SSJ Gotenks in between SSJ2 Goku and SSJ3 Goku.

Base Goku (1) << Base Gotenks Pre-RoSAt(5) < SSJ Goku (50) < SSJ2 Goku(100) < SSJ Gotenks Pre-ROSAT(250) < SSJ3 Goku (400) < SSJ Gotenks Post-RoSAT(500) <SSJ2 Gotenks(1000) < Super Buu(3500) < SSJ3 Gotenks (4000) < Ultimate Gohan (5000)

Mjb1985 · Post by **Mjb1985** » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:05 pm

I wouldn't call Vegeta vs Zarbon a stomp. This level seems to be the first line of domination. When the weaker character is essentially helpless in their offensive abilties, yet they are strong enough that they can manage to take a beating for a while. Generally there are many battles that show this first line of domination.

First we started off with Tenshinhan vs Goku ( Weighted ) at the 23rd Budokai. When Tenshinhan decides to show off his real speed, the following battle ensues in which Goku is shocked by Ten's speed, is able to only muster up enough to put up a defensive battle and can't get anything going offensively. We see Goku punch the air and Ten's after image his way out of there.

We see this type of battle with Zarbon vs Vegeta, Goku vs Cell and so on. One fighter is the clear superior, while the other is right at that level if they were just a tad bit faster, they would be able to at least manage something.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:30 pm

So, finally found time to do the Freeza arc:

Spoiler:

My previous numbers:

Spoiler:

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:48 pm

Okay, I'll bite. What's with the numbers for Zarbon and Vegeta?

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:53 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Okay, I'll bite. What's with the numbers for Zarbon and Vegeta?

I noticed that Transformed Zarbon is probably too low (fixed), but what's wrong with Vegeta?

BTW, I also changed Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:31 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Okay, I'll bite. What's with the numbers for Zarbon and Vegeta?
I noticed that Transformed Zarbon is probably too low (fixed), but what's wrong with Vegeta?

BTW, I also changed Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu.

Daizenshuu 7 had Vegeta at 30,000. Meaning Vegeta was close enough to 30,000 that the difference wasn't even worth listing. Also, Zarbon is still too low. He should be equal with Vegeta at worst.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:21 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Daizenshuu 7 had Vegeta at 30,000. Meaning Vegeta was close enough to 30,000 that the difference wasn't even worth listing. Also, Zarbon is still too low. He should be equal with Vegeta at worst.

Well, I'm going bythe manga, and the manga says thathe is almost 30.000, and that's what my number shows.

I can't check, but wsn't Zarbon weaker than him?

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:43 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Daizenshuu 7 had Vegeta at 30,000. Meaning Vegeta was close enough to 30,000 that the difference wasn't even worth listing. Also, Zarbon is still too low. He should be equal with Vegeta at worst.
Well, I'm going bythe manga, and the manga says thathe is almost 30.000, and that's what my number shows.

I can't check, but wsn't Zarbon weaker than him?

Yes, that was what was technically stated, but by "almost 30,000" Jeice probably means something so close to 30,000 (like 29,987) that the difference was not worth mentioning. It's the same deal with Goku's "over 8,000" number in the Saiyan arc. Every official source just puts him at 8,000, because no one wants to list "8,006" and apply the multipliers to it.

Not really. I think it was implied that they were at least equal. Right before they fight, Vegeta says this:

Chapter: 267 (DBZ 73), P5.1-4
Context: Vegeta is tailing Kuririn, and realizes Zarbon is tailing him.
Vegeta: “Eh?! There's a huge battle power…It's following me… I’d say Zarbon has found me! Feh!! What a nuisance…! But this is a good opportunity. I’ll take care of him for sure this time! He’s completely filled with confidence from our last battle…! He should come at me off-guard…”

The fight consisted of Zarbon taking a swing at Vegeta, Vegeta dodging, grabbing sand, flying up into the air, waiting for Zarbon to pursue, and then dropping the sand in Zarbon's eyes, blinding him. He then hit Zarbon in the back while he was off-guard, knocked him into the ground, and pounded him with a bunch of ki blasts. Zarbon emerges injured and then Vegeta says this:

Chapter: 268 (DBZ 74), P8.1-5
Context: Vegeta thinks Zarbon’s strength has fallen from the pre-emptive attack and brags about his own increase in power.
Vegeta: “Looks like my preemptive attack had an effect…Your stamina’s fallen quite a bit, hasn’t it? Zarbon, your death is close.”
Zarbon: “My d-death is close…!? Don’t make me laugh! My battle power is higher than yours!”
Vegeta: “Zarbon…Weren’t you supposed to know a lot about Saiyans? It wasn’t a good idea for you to carelessly treat me after I almost died…Don’t you think so? Saiyans can steadily increase their battle power each time they recover from near death…”
Kuririn: “So…so that’s it…! Now that he mentions it, Goku also got stronger every time he had a fierce fight…Dam-dammit! So that’s why Vegeta’s ki has risen so darn much…!”

Then they briefly fight and Vegeta kills him with one punch.

Vegeta emphasizing Zarbon's arrogance rather than his own improved battle power, being fairly cautious of someone he should be able to DOMINATE at near-equal battle powers (as shown by their first fight), and not bringing up his power increase until after Zarbon has taken so much damage all imply Zarbon was at least his equal, but likely stronger.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:40 am

Like I said, I'll go by what the manga said, and keep him at almost 30.000, like I kept Goku at over 8.000.

As for Zarbon, I guess I'll place him at exactly 29.000. It seems to me that Vegeta was stronger than him, but not by much, and that he fought the way he did to completely overpower him.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:07 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Like I said, I'll go by what the manga said, and keep him at almost 30.000, like I kept Goku at over 8.000.

As for Zarbon, I guess I'll place him at exactly 29.000. It seems to me that Vegeta was stronger than him, but not by much, and that he fought the way he did to completely overpower him.

Except there's nothing contradicting what the Daizenshuu said here. As I said, 29,999 is still technically "almost 30,000", just like how 8,001 is technically "over 8,000", but neither differences are really worth listing.

If Vegeta was stronger at all, he wouldn't have bothered with any sort of tactics. You've made them about as close as base Zarbon and Vegeta were in the first fight, and Vegeta didn't rely on tactics at all there, nor did he show caution of Zarbon's power like he did here. He just went in with no plan and easily kicked Zarbon's ass.

Also

-Raditz is 1,500. This number has been parroted in every official source, from Weekly Jump to Daizenshuu 7 to the SEG.

-I'll say it again, Tao Paipai and everyone before him are NOT that strong. He was critically injured by a single concussion grenade, and got his ass beat by someone who could still be hurt by sniper rifle bullets. Heck, Goku in his first round vs Tao Paipai could still be killed by a single shotgun blast. A x2 boost shouldn't bring you from "can barely survive a grenade" to "can survive a nuclear bomb". None of these people begin to compare with "battleship's main gun" level, nor should they be at all in striking distance of "small nuclear bomb" level.

-The gap between Tao and Goku is too small. In both cases. Another reason why having Tao that high doesn't really work.

-Chappa is too weak. Roshi, who can sense powers, was scared as shit by Goku taking him down easily. Same with Krillin and Yamcha. They all also were expecting Chappa to be a really hard fight for a Goku that had trained several years. So it's impossible for him to be weaker than Goku before any training. Another reason having Tao and Goku that strong doesn't really work.

-What's wrong with listing Kairn at 190?

-Tambourine is too strong compared to Goku. Then again, so are Krillin and Yamcha.

-Old Daimao is probably too weak too.

-Piccolo, Goku, Kami, and Popo are definitely too weak compared to Daimao. Goku and Piccolo also don't have enough of an advantage on Kami. He stood no chance against either of them; they're not barely stronger than he is.

-Nappa is supposed to be really weak compared to Goku.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:48 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Except there's nothing contradicting what the Daizenshuu said here. As I said, 29,999 is still technically "almost 30,000", just like how 8,001 is technically "over 8,000", but neither differences are really worth listing.

And my number is almost 30.000. I don't care what the Daizenshuu state in this case, I want to go literally by the manga. But I guess I'll make him at 29.900, to make it even closer.

If Vegeta was stronger at all, he wouldn't have bothered with any sort of tactics. You've made them about as close as base Zarbon and Vegeta were in the first fight, and Vegeta didn't rely on tactics at all there, nor did he show caution of Zarbon's power like he did here. He just went in with no plan and easily kicked Zarbon's ass.

I guess I should make the gap smaller (29.500 sounds fine), and it's his tactics that made him win easily, not that made him win, period. The fight was small, and Vegeta didn't land many hits on Zarbon, so I don't see a weaker Vegeta having the strength to do that much to him.

-Raditz is 1,500. This number has been parroted in every official source, from Weekly Jump to Daizenshuu 7 to the SEG.

According to the manga, and even Toriyama himself, Raditz's BP rivals that of the Saibaimen, and he is slightly superior. At 1.500, it isn't rivaling anymore.

-I'll say it again, Tao Paipai and everyone before him are NOT that strong. He was critically injured by a single concussion grenade, and got his ass beat by someone who could still be hurt by sniper rifle bullets. Heck, Goku in his first round vs Tao Paipai could still be killed by a single shotgun blast. A x2 boost shouldn't bring you from "can barely survive a grenade" to "can survive a nuclear bomb". None of these people begin to compare with "battleship's main gun" level, nor should they be at all in striking distance of "small nuclear bomb" level.

-Chappa is too weak. Roshi, who can sense powers, was scared as shit by Goku taking him down easily. Same with Krillin and Yamcha. They all also were expecting Chappa to be a really hard fight for a Goku that had trained several years. So it's impossible for him to be weaker than Goku before any training. Another reason having Tao and Goku that strong doesn't really work.

I'll change them after I'm done with the Boo arc.

-The gap between Tao and Goku is too small. In both cases. Another reason why having Tao that high doesn't really work.

-Tambourine is too strong compared to Goku. Then again, so are Krillin and Yamcha.

-Old Daimao is probably too weak too.

-Piccolo, Goku, Kami, and Popo are definitely too weak compared to Daimao. Goku and Piccolo also don't have enough of an advantage on Kami. He stood no chance against either of them; they're not barely stronger than he is.

I'll check these after I'm done with the Boo arc.

-What's wrong with listing Kairn at 190?

Accident from the past list I made, will be corrected later.

-Nappa is supposed to be really weak compared to Goku.

We've debated this to death multiple times. Nappa fought like shit against Goku at first, but then fought like a fighter after that, and proved to be a match for Goku. I know you disagree with me, and you won't change my mind because I've already seen your points, and I just can't agree with them, not because I'm too stubborn, but because I just disagree. So let's not talk about this for yet another time.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:59 pm

According to the manga, and even Toriyama himself, Raditz's BP rivals that of the Saibaimen, and he is slightly superior. At 1.500, it isn't rivaling anymore.

According to who? Certainly not anyone in any official capacity, given that Freeza and Goku were listed with the exact same gap proportional gap. Certainly not Toriyama himself, as he thinks power levels of 85 and 100 can have a really good fight.

BTW, Raditz's 1,500 number was printed in the same Weekly Jump issue that had the Goku-Vegeta beam struggle. Since Toriyama was handing out memos containing power statements to the anime staff at this time, I highly doubt he'd just let that page be put there if the numbers were wrong. It's very likely that he's the one who put them there.

I guess I should make the gap smaller (29.500 sounds fine), and it's his tactics that made him win easily, not that made him win, period. The fight was small, and Vegeta didn't land many hits on Zarbon, so I don't see a weaker Vegeta having the strength to do that much to him.

He landed tons of hits, in the form of those ki blasts. Equals or even inferiors can totally critically damage their opponents at a good opportunity. Remember Piccolo vs Goku? Or Cell vs Gohan?

EDIT: Also, I made some changes to my own list. Mostly, I scaled everyone weaker than 22nd Budokai Ten/Goku lower (e.g. post-Karin Goku is now 65, 22nd Budokai Krillin is 80, General Blue is now 20). I think that fits better with how conventional weaponry was portrayed before the Piccolo Daimao arc (e.g. one point blank shotgun blast to the face can kill RRA arc Goku who is stronger than Blue/Krillin/Yamcha, one grenade can critically injure Tao Paipai, rockets can still hurt and scratch an on-guard post-Karin training Goku). The Daizenshuu comment on 100 battle power = battleship's main gun really limits things in that regard, as that's ludicrously more powerful than any attack we see before the 22nd Budokai.

Kanzenshuu

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