Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Lord Frieza]

According to the above if their base states are now equivalent to SSJ3 then Vegeta should be able to lift that in base or about 1.1 Billion tons.
For perspective that is equivalent to about 1.36% of the Moon's total mass meaning Magetta would need to weight more than that and if he ever landed on Earth's Moon would likely offset its rotation and elliptical orbit with his weight alone.

Sigh, I love power level discussions for this reason.

I would hate to imagine what would happen if Magettta fell to earth at terminal velocity into a city!

[Bullza]

Well if you go by the minimum figure by assuming those weights were Iron and weighed 55,200 tons then as a SSJ3 he can lift 22 million tons.

SSJ Gotenks was about as strong as SSJ3 Goku (or stronger) so as a SSJ3 he should be able to lift at least 176 million tons.

Buuhan would have to be over twice as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Vegito was even stronger but for simplicities sake just say Super Vegito was twice as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks. SSJ3 Vegito should be able to lift at least 1.4 billion tons.

SSJG Goku was even stronger. SSJB was even stronger still and with Kaiokenx10 he should be able to lift 14 billion tons minimum.

IF Base Goku was indeed as strong as SSJG then he should be able to lift at least 1.4 billion tons.

IF SSJ still makes them 50x stronger then SSJ Goku should be able to lift 70 billion tons. SSJ3 Goku should be able to lift 560 billion tons and SSJB is stronger.

So SSJB Goku using Kaioken x10 should be able to lift a minimum of 5.6 trillion tons if base Goku is currently God level.

[TheMikado]

Using the above calculation Goku in the form could lift an Earth moon on earth finger and not be remotely worn out. In fact he could lift a stack of over 50 Earth moons over his head.

[Bullza]

Well if the weights were Iron then based on what I said Goku at his strongest could possibly lift a few dozen trillion tons.

That is assuming that Base Goku is equal to SSJG Goku and that SSJB Goku using Kaioken x10 is several thousand times stronger though.

On the other hand if you went with the calculation that assumes the weights are made out of the same material as the 40 ton weights then SSJG Goku should be able to lift at least 2.26 trillion tons in base. And so SSJB Goku using Kaioken x10 should be able to lift at least 22.6 trillion tons.

If Base Goku was equal to SSJG then it could mean that Goku at his max could lift at least 9 quadrillion tons and more likely a few dozen quadrillion tons.

Either way it isn't close to the 5.97 sextillion tons Superman bench prenched for 5 days straight. Still a hell of a lot though.

[Khin]

Speaking of lifting feats.Vados casually carried six Neptune-sized balls with telekenisis in episode 29.

[Saiyan007]

Speaking of lifting feats.Vados casually carried six Neptune-sized balls with telekenisis in episode 29.

Did it at FTL speeds which makes it all the more impressive

[Bullza]

There was that too. Theres been a few good telekinesis feats. Like that time when Cell did this.



You can't get a good sense of how big it really is in that image because there were. a few building on it and Cell just casually lifted it and cut it to pieces. That was probably millions of tons of rock there.

Vados' feat is on a whole other level though. She could casually lift up Mars and drop it on Earth to kill everyone.

[Chiki]

There was that too. Theres been a few good telekinesis feats. Like that time when Cell did this.



You can't get a good sense of how big it really is in that image because there were. a few building on it and Cell just casually lifted it and cut it to pieces. That was probably millions of tons of rock there.

Vados' feat is on a whole other level though. She could casually lift up Mars and drop it on Earth to kill everyone.

Um, aren't those trees? Lol that's not a very impressive feat.

[Bullza]

It's very impressive, he's casually lifting up an enormous amount of bedrock like it was nothing. That's more than anyone has actually lifted with muscle strenght in the entire series.

Goku puhsed a big boulder once which is a miniscule fraction of that landmass.

[Volk]

They have enough power to destroy planets, but lifting a sword still holds to be one of the toughest things the Saiyins have done

[apex_pretador]

Well if you go by the minimum figure by assuming those weights were Iron and weighed 55,200 tons then as a SSJ3 he can lift 22 million tons.

SSJ Gotenks was about as strong as SSJ3 Goku (or stronger) so as a SSJ3 he should be able to lift at least 176 million tons.

Buuhan would have to be over twice as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Vegito was even stronger but for simplicities sake just say Super Vegito was twice as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks. SSJ3 Vegito should be able to lift at least 1.4 billion tons.

SSJG Goku was even stronger. SSJB was even stronger still and with Kaiokenx10 he should be able to lift 14 billion tons minimum.

IF Base Goku was indeed as strong as SSJG then he should be able to lift at least 1.4 billion tons.

IF SSJ still makes them 50x stronger then SSJ Goku should be able to lift 70 billion tons. SSJ3 Goku should be able to lift 560 billion tons and SSJB is stronger.

So SSJB Goku using Kaioken x10 should be able to lift a minimum of 5.6 trillion tons if base Goku is currently God level.

power levels and lifting relation is not linear.
Otherwise farmer with shotgun can lift and throw over a ton. (23rd TB goku threw over 100 ton piccolo like nothing)

Hell, BoDB goku was throwing away cars lifting them overhead. Power levels can't be used that way.

[buutenks]

Well if you go by the minimum figure by assuming those weights were Iron and weighed 55,200 tons then as a SSJ3 he can lift 22 million tons.

SSJ Gotenks was about as strong as SSJ3 Goku (or stronger) so as a SSJ3 he should be able to lift at least 176 million tons.

Buuhan would have to be over twice as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Vegito was even stronger but for simplicities sake just say Super Vegito was twice as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks. SSJ3 Vegito should be able to lift at least 1.4 billion tons.

SSJG Goku was even stronger. SSJB was even stronger still and with Kaiokenx10 he should be able to lift 14 billion tons minimum.

IF Base Goku was indeed as strong as SSJG then he should be able to lift at least 1.4 billion tons.

IF SSJ still makes them 50x stronger then SSJ Goku should be able to lift 70 billion tons. SSJ3 Goku should be able to lift 560 billion tons and SSJB is stronger.

So SSJB Goku using Kaioken x10 should be able to lift a minimum of 5.6 trillion tons if base Goku is currently God level.

power levels and lifting relation is not linear.
Otherwise farmer with shotgun can lift and throw over a ton. (23rd TB goku threw over 100 ton piccolo like nothing)

Hell, BoDB goku was throwing away cars lifting them overhead. Power levels can't be used that way.

Aww you just ruined the fun.

[Bullza]

There's no way Giant Piccolo was 100 tons. A Brachiosaurus only weighs about 60 tons and that thing was much bigger than Piccolo. The biggest Elephants on Earth weigh about 7 tons.

Piccolo was probably the weight of several Elephants maybe 50 tons.

If anything twice the power level equals more than twice the power.

Goku with a power level of a 10 was more than twice as strong as a regular human. Oozaru Goku is more than ten times as strong as normal Goku. Tao's power level wouldn't have been double Bora's and Bora couldn't even budge his spear.

It does seem to scale linearly with Kaioken though because when Goku used Kaioken the narration said that he'd doubled his strenght.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This shows that the two base theory is the only way to go if you accept the 6-10-15 scale.

1. The argument that "oh it's too complicated for viewers!!" doesn't work anymore (it never worked to begin with but w/e) because the power levels are extremely complicated right now thanks to Kaioken x10 SSB Goku and the 10% Vegeta statement not matching up very well. This is far more complicated than the two base theory itself. Isn't that why you abandoned the two base theory to begin with?
2. You put Piccolo as a 1.2, this is impossible. If SS2 Raging Vegeta was a 0.4, SSJ3 Goku was a 0.2, then SSJ Goku would be a 0.2/8 = 0.025. Assume Piccolo was = SSJ BoG Goku during RoF, which is unlikely but w/e. Then Piccolo got a 1.2/0.025 = x48 power boost which is basically like he went SSJ or something. Not saying these numbers are accurate or exact at all, they aren't, but they should give you an idea of his power boost which is ridiculous.

Personally, I view the manga version of Champa arc (and beyond) as the true continuation of the original manga & the movies (and with Toriyama's involvement & the way he talks about it in the latest interview, this seems to be the case), so until we see something different, I believe that Goku has 2 base forms. But the anime seems to have taken a different direction & has weakened base Goku with SSG powers while eliminating his regular form. So, it goes like this:

Spoiler:

...............Saiyan → Super Saiyan→ → → →
..................↓.................................↓
Saiyan with Super Saiyan God power → Super Saiyan Blue

Spoiler:

Saiyan → Super Saiyan → Super Saiyan Blue

With SS=SSG=x50 base

As for Piccolo, I really don't care if his boost is ridiculous. The Super anime is Toei's baby in Toei's world, which is full of bullshit power-ups, and IMO Piccolo is portrayed to be on that level in the anime.

[Speedster]

There was that too. Theres been a few good telekinesis feats. Like that time when Cell did this.

Spoiler:

You can't get a good sense of how big it really is in that image because there were. a few building on it and Cell just casually lifted it and cut it to pieces. That was probably millions of tons of rock there.

The scene of Cell you are referencing is not in the manga. It is only in the anime. And in the anime there was a bigger direct lifting feat. See Goku lifting against added force by Freeza an entire island that was thrown to him by Freeza at supersonic velocities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxRZm-wUcGk

There's no way Giant Piccolo was 100 tons. A Brachiosaurus only weighs about 60 tons and that thing was much bigger than Piccolo. The biggest Elephants on Earth weigh about 7 tons. Piccolo was probably the weight of several Elephants maybe 50 tons.

You are forgetting that 60% of that creature’s height is just a long neck. A fairer comparison to Giant Piccolo (not Super Giant Piccolo-just Giant Piccolo) in terms of volume would be a large blue whale that has a mass of 170 tonnes. Giant Piccolo (the regular giant Piccolo-not the Super Giant Piccolo) was about 18.5 metres tall, 5.5 metres wide and 2 metres deep. So a volume of about 200 cubic metres. Average human density (including air cavities, bones, etc) is more or less like water’s (human body half-floats on sea water). So average human density of human body is a ton per cubic metre. Thus Piccolo was 200 tonnes. And that based on the drawings alone. Because Daizenshuu puts Piccolo’s giantification at x10 his height so since Piccolo is 2.26metres tall his giant form was 22.6metres. But I am not even using this. And even if you want to extremely lowball and say Piccolo was only 15m tall, 4 metres wide and 1.75 metres deep (goku was under Piccolo’s feet after all) that is still 130cubic metres hence 130 tonnes.

Not just this but Goku toppled Piccolo as well as able to press against Piccolo's feet while he was under his feet being squashed. Both of these feats require much more force than just the weight of Piccolo. When Piccolo ws stomping Goku it was Picclo’s weight PLUS the extra force generated by Piccolo’s muscles pushing down. And when Goku toppled him from his finger he needed a greater force to generate the required torque. As a matter of fact he needed about at least 7.5x bigger force.

Goku with a power level of a 10 was more than twice as strong as a regular human. Oozaru Goku is more than ten times as strong as normal Goku.

Yep that part is correct. Which should show to you that doubling your power level results to far greater increases in actual strength and destructive capacity than 2x. Biggest example Piccolo/Roshi destroyed the moon with a power level of maximum 1000. Goku with 10 destroyed a car. An 100fold increase in power level resulted in 100 sextillion times increase in destructive capacity. Does this sounds linear to you? Not even close!

It does seem to scale linearly with Kaioken though because when Goku used Kaioken the narration said that he'd doubled his strength.

No. Kaioken was flat out stated to double the battle power level.

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

Besides Kaiokenx3 resulted to Goku going from over 8 thousand to over 21,000 blowing up the scouter and still rising (hence 24,000). And Goku with Kaioken on Namek had a power level of 180,000 while Ginyu estimated (without using his scouter) max Goku's base to be around 85,000 (he was just off by 5000).

Additionally when Goku described Kaioken to Krillin (referring to just the regular Kaioken) he said that Kaioken multiplies ones strength, speed, etc by several times over. Not just 2.

Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

Anyway bottom line is that both Beerus and scouter scales don't relate linearly to strength. And they also don't have to be similar scales either. Why should Beerus be using the scouter scale anyway? Does Champa use the same calendar as Earth's? So for example for every tenfold increase in scouter power level you just go up by 0.5 unit. So if SSB Goku in U6 arc is say '8.0' then with KKx10 he goes to '8.5' and gets "closer" to Beerus "10". Similarly if you still want to use that SSJ1 is x50 multiplier that would be adding 2.5 units in Beerus scale. And SSG/SSGSS is x100 on top of that so adding 5 units.

So you can have
base Goku=0.5
SSJ Goku=base+2.5=3
SSGSS Goku=SSJ+5=8
SSGSS KKx10=SSGSS+0.5=8.5

Also I need to say that we still don't have overlapping of the KK usage in the manga (we have to wait at two months for that). Given Toei has used everyone's "forgotten" tenchiques (Piccolo Makankosappo, Vegeta Gallick Gun and Final Flash) I have a feeling that his Kaioken may not be in Toriyama's original "thick" plot. That plot only seems to contain the design of the characters, some bio information, some cool things they do, their special tenchique, the final outcome of each fight and its exact end (Goku throws Botamo out of the ring, Goku gets poisoned and knocked out of the ring, Piccolo doing well and losing only after getting poisoned similarly to Goku, Vegeta defeating Frost by hitting him hard out of the ring, Magetta losing his composure after being insulted).

[LightBing]

Personally, I view the manga version of Champa arc (and beyond) as the true continuation of the original manga & the movies (and with Toriyama's involvement & the way he talks about it in the latest interview, this seems to be the case), so until we see something different, I believe that Goku has 2 base forms. But the anime seems to have taken a different direction & has weakened base Goku with SSG powers while eliminating his regular form. So, it goes like this:

In the manga Goku didn't absorbed the SSJG power. Shenlong says the form is temporary, Goku isn't mentioned to have absorb it.

I again argue that Mr.Toriyama said he tried to write Super as simple as the manga. I'm only at chapter 5 now, but from I remember no chapter explains or points towards two bases.
In the anime and movie, yeah one can say Goku absorbs the God Ream, here he didn't. So which is it?

There's also no 70% talk, going away from the movie even more. SSJG level is left very open.

[apex_pretador]

There's no way Giant Piccolo was 100 tons. A Brachiosaurus only weighs about 60 tons and that thing was much bigger than Piccolo. The biggest Elephants on Earth weigh about 7 tons.

Piccolo was probably the weight of several Elephants maybe 50 tons.

If anything twice the power level equals more than twice the power.

Goku with a power level of a 10 was more than twice as strong as a regular human. Oozaru Goku is more than ten times as strong as normal Goku. Tao's power level wouldn't have been double Bora's and Bora couldn't even budge his spear.

It does seem to scale linearly with Kaioken though because when Goku used Kaioken the narration said that he'd doubled his strenght.

Piccolo's fingers are long as goku's body, who is around 56" tall by now.

So, piccolo's fingers ~= 55"

Piccolo's body length must be around 20x his finger length atleast = 1100"

Piccolo's height & weight are 89" and 116 kg respectively. (guidebooks)

So, with linear scaling , we get 219 tons weight for piccolo & goku threw him away. This is already more impressive than lifting.
__________-

Even if my scaling is, say, off by a factor of 2 (I.e., if we only assume it is HALF the weight of what I calculated), even then it is well over 100 tons.

[Volk]

Do you guys think that when they referred to "doubling" the power that they were talking about Kaioken x1? Maybe that means that Kaioken x10 is Goku x 10^10 stronger? At least that's how I feel

[Khin]

Do you guys think that when they referred to "doubling" the power that they were talking about Kaioken x1? Maybe that means that Kaioken x10 is Goku x 10^10 stronger? At least that's how I feel

There is no such thing as Kaioken x1.Kaioken x2 and Kaioken are the same thing.

[apex_pretador]

Do you guys think that when they referred to "doubling" the power that they were talking about Kaioken x1? Maybe that means that Kaioken x10 is Goku x 10^10 stronger? At least that's how I feel

even if you go by that, KK x10 won't be 10^10, but only 2^10 which is about 10^3