Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Skar]

If Roshi was 139 how strong was Grandpa Gohan?

30 at the time of his death.

Remeber Roshi had 139 after 3 years of training for the 22nd TB.

What do you Max power Roshi's PL during the 22nd tournament when he destroyed the moon?

Again, there's no evidence for this, and therefore no reason to disregard official information.

How would Goku learn to transform at will by just training in base? When they first enter the Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku wanted Gohan to reach first so that he could help him train. I assume he meant train together in SSJ. Later on Gohan is shown training in SSJ while Goku is trying to figure out how to unlock ASSJ. This is before Goku suggests that they overcome the strain and master SSJ. If Gohan was shown training in SSJ shorty after achieving the form then I don't see what's wrong with the other Saiyans doing so before.

Uh, why couldn't they? Transforming gives them a big power boost, but it's not like they suddenly can't control that power.

i don't understand how would they suppress it below the minimum power the form gives them. If SSJ was a multiplier like Kaioken I don't think Goku could suppress a level of Kaioken without going down to a lower level or reverting back to base.

Well, first we'd need to know how strong Freeza was. If Cell's Solar Kamehaeha could bust the Sun, it would be equivalent to 165,000,000 yottatons of TNT. Assuming his technique multiplied his power by about two, Cell would be able to dish out and survive 90,000,000 yottatons normally. I have Cell x60 stronger than Freeza, so Freeza would need to be able to routinely dish out and survive 1,500,000 yottatons. This is assuming that power levels scale linearly, of course, when they're outright shown not to. I think Freeza would only rest in the range of a few hundred yottatons, myself. Maybe a bit more with amplified attacks.

Kaio-Ken is evidence that Toriyama just didn't pay attention to destructive power feats. Piccolo Daimao was exhausted after using city-busting levels of energy. Yet Piccolo Jr was a planet-buster at the beginning of DBZ despite not even having twice his dad's battle power.

It clear to me that power levels didn't follow any sort of consistent scale. If it takes 30 trillion megatons of explosives to destroy the moon then Master Roshi was trillions upon trillions of times stronger than an average human even though his power level was less than 20x higher. Using that same exponential scale then Raditz would've been trillions of times stronger than Roshi and Vegeta would've been trillions of times stronger than Raditz. Using that same scale by the time we reach a power level of 1 million the power would, I honestly don't know but something like, octillion or decillion times stronger than Vegeta? Considering their power followed an exponential scale then their speed should have as well. If it takes light 1.2 seconds to travel to the moon and Roshi's Kamehameha reached the moon in a few seconds then someone who could easily dodge his Kamehameha might almost be faster than light. Even up to the Buu saga no one was even close to lightspeed even though they had billions of times the power level. If it became linear like with Kaioken then they should have at least been lightspeed by the Buu saga if their power levels were in the billions. I don't know how to do the math but I'm pretty sure there isn't any way to make up with a consistent scale using power levels.

I have no idea how to calculate the destructive power of Frieza. The scale seemed to change again twice in the Frieza saga. The gap between Dodoria and Vegeta was much less than the gap between Frieza and SSJ Goku and we know how differently those battles were. If 100% Frieza had a PL over 800,000 higher than Roshi's PL then how much faster and stronger would he be? I guess it depends which scale we decide to use from the many we have to choose from.

He never said Goku was dangerous to him. He only said that Goku WOULD have been dangerous if he WASN'T a martial artist. Which he was.

Grandpa Gohan didn't look unscathed in that panel. If the gap between 5 and 10 is so huge and assuming Goku was less than 10 as a toddler then Grandpa Gohan couldn't have been much stronger than an average human if he had to put in some effort to win. I guess it depends which scale we choose to use here too. I don't know I figured Grandpa Gohan had a PL of at least 50.

[RandomGuy96]

How would Goku learn to transform at will by just training in base? When they first enter the Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku wanted Gohan to reach first so that he could help him train. I assume he meant train together in SSJ. Later on Gohan is shown training in SSJ while Goku is trying to figure out how to unlock ASSJ. This is before Goku suggests that they overcome the strain and master SSJ. If Gohan was shown training in SSJ shorty after achieving the form then I don't see what's wrong with the other Saiyans doing so before.

It's possible that was just his plan from the beginning, and he only mentioned it later.

i don't understand how would they suppress it below the minimum power the form gives them. If SSJ was a multiplier like Kaioken I don't think Goku could suppress a level of Kaioken without going down to a lower level or reverting back to base.

I don't understand why they wouldn't be able to. It's still their power- it's an actual transformation, not a forced amplification technique like the Kaio-ken.

It clear to me that power levels didn't follow any sort of consistent scale. If it takes 30 trillion megatons of explosives to destroy the moon then Master Roshi was trillions upon trillions of times stronger than an average human even though his power level was less than 20x higher. Using that same exponential scale then Raditz would've been trillions of times stronger than Roshi and Vegeta would've been trillions of times stronger than Raditz. Using that same scale by the time we reach a power level of 1 million the power would, I honestly don't know but something like, octillion or decillion times stronger than Vegeta? Considering their power followed an exponential scale then their speed should have as well. If it takes light 1.2 seconds to travel to the moon and Roshi's Kamehameha reached the moon in a few seconds then someone who could easily dodge his Kamehameha might almost be faster than light. Even up to the Buu saga no one was even close to lightspeed even though they had billions of times the power level. If it became linear like with Kaioken then they should have at least been lightspeed by the Buu saga if their power levels were in the billions. I don't know how to do the math but I'm pretty sure there isn't any way to make up with a consistent scale using power levels.

I feel like it should be noted that Roshi was in his buff form when he fired the Super Kamehameha that took out the moon. Considering how everyone thought he was going to use that attack to kill Oozaru Goku, who was ten times as strong as him, it seems pretty clear that Roshi's buff form is just insanely powerful relative to his base form. But there really isn't any consistent scale to power levels. A regular human being 5 should make that obvious.

I have no idea how to calculate the destructive power of Freeza. The scale seemed to change again twice in the Freeza saga. The gap between Dodoria and Vegeta was much less than the gap between Freeza and SSJ Goku and we know how differently those battles were. If 100% Freeza had a PL over 800,000 higher than Roshi's PL then how much faster and stronger would he be? I guess it depends which scale we decide to use from the many we have to choose from.

Dodoria probably lost a lot of shuuki and yuuki because he was such a wuss, resulting in him dying very easily. Freeza, by contrast, actually tried to fight.

Grandpa Gohan didn't look unscathed in that panel.

He's just dirty.

If the gap between 5 and 10 is so huge and assuming Goku was less than 10 as a toddler then Grandpa Gohan couldn't have been much stronger than an average human if he had to put in some effort to win

There's no evidence that he actually had to. If you assume that those really are scratches rather than just dirt, then toddler Goku and Gohan were equally strong, which is... well, wrong.

I guess it depends which scale we choose to use here too. I don't know I figured Grandpa Gohan had a PL of at least 50.

He was Roshi's greatest student, even stronger than Ox-King. I guess it depends on how strong Roshi was when he was training Gohan, since one would assume he was weaker than Roshi, and Roshi is very weak (relative to his younger self and 22nd Budokai level) at the beginning of the series. Post-21st Budokai Roshi says he couldn't win against a few dozen thugs with WW2-era small arms even with back-up from Yamcha and Krillin, and was plainly no match for Tao Paipai. 22nd Budokai Roshi was much, much stronger than a guy (Post-Karin Goku) who easily dispatched those same threats.

[xmysticgohanx]

What do you guys think about having Mr. Satan at around Tao Pai Pai's level? He survived an encounter with him, Tao was apparently bloodlusted, and someone around Tao's level would still be treated as a joke in the series. Although Mr. Satan's feats top out at wall level, he was never shown to be hurt by the attacks so it's not his limit. Toriyama says he's weaker than Bob Sapp but that doesn't make any sense considering his feats and the fact that Toriyama said he survived against Tao.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What do you guys think about having Mr. Satan at around Tao Pai Pai's level? He survived an encounter with him, Tao was apparently bloodlusted, and someone around Tao's level would still be treated as a joke in the series. Although Mr. Satan's feats top out at wall level, he was never shown to be hurt by the attacks so it's not his limit. Toriyama says he's weaker than Bob Sapp but that doesn't make any sense considering his feats and the fact that Toriyama said he survived against Tao.

He also survived against Cell. Does that mean that he can kill Freeza?

Human have brains to make their own decisions. Just because Taopaipai is stronger than him doesn't mean he can't restrain himself to not kill someone.

[Kamiccolo9]

What do you guys think about having Mr. Satan at around Tao Pai Pai's level? He survived an encounter with him, Tao was apparently bloodlusted, and someone around Tao's level would still be treated as a joke in the series. Although Mr. Satan's feats top out at wall level, he was never shown to be hurt by the attacks so it's not his limit. Toriyama says he's weaker than Bob Sapp but that doesn't make any sense considering his feats and the fact that Toriyama said he survived against Tao.

You can't use an encounter that we know nothing about as proof for anything. For all we know, Tao killed his master, looked at Mr. Satan lying in a pool of his own piss, laughed at him, then left.

[xmysticgohanx]

What do you guys think about having Mr. Satan at around Tao Pai Pai's level? He survived an encounter with him, Tao was apparently bloodlusted, and someone around Tao's level would still be treated as a joke in the series. Although Mr. Satan's feats top out at wall level, he was never shown to be hurt by the attacks so it's not his limit. Toriyama says he's weaker than Bob Sapp but that doesn't make any sense considering his feats and the fact that Toriyama said he survived against Tao.

He also survived against Cell. Does that mean that he can kill Freeza?

Human have brains to make their own decisions. Just because Taopaipai is stronger than him doesn't mean he can't restrain himself to not kill someone.

Outlier, otherwise 21st Budokai Roshi > Daimao. Tao never restrains himself

[Skar]

It's possible that was just his plan from the beginning, and he only mentioned it later.

Well you said nothing in the manga suggested that they trained in SSJ prior to Goku coming up with the idea of mastering SSJ so I gave an example. There's no way to know Goku planned that from the beginning because he didn't realize the drawbacks of ASSJ and USSJ until he tried them himself.

I don't understand why they wouldn't be able to. It's still their power- it's an actual transformation, not a forced amplification technique like the Kaio-ken.

When Goku was suffering from the heart virus against #19 he wasn't at full strength but still able to maintain SSJ. Him and Vegeta had some of their energy absorbed but still were able stay in SSJ so I figured they had extra ki reserves in SSJ from their training. A set multiplier might mean they could get knocked out of SSJ if their power goes below the bare minimum of that form. I don't know how it worked during the Frieza saga. Goku was on the ground and could barely stand up after the Spirit Bomb but looked fine after SSJ and outlasted Frieza.

I don't see how that contradicts anything in the manga. The 50x multiplier given in the Daizenshuu was only referring to Goku's fight against Frieza not every level of SSJ throughout the series. It was only the SEG that gave the multipliers for all the SSJ forms which came out 14 years after the manga ended. We know from the guide here on Kanzenshuu that Toriyama had little to involvement in the guidebooks. They don't seem to even be consistent with what we learned in his recent work. In the Buu saga SSJ2 Goku and Majin SSJ2 Vegeta were equal so I assume by Battle of Gods they were close to equal in base, SSJ1, and SSJ2. With one massive rage boost in SSJ1, Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku instead of transforming into SSJ2 or 3. If he was in SSJ2 then would it have resulted in an even bigger rage boost? Then Toriyama says that SSJ2 and 3 are just "powered-up variations" of SSJ1 and that Goku probably won't bother with any form besides base and SSJ1. If they were set multipliers like the SEG suggests then SSJ2 and 3 would always be higher than whatever Goku's current SSJ1 was. Then again turning SSJ1 against Beerus didn't seem to make a big difference so either the multiplier went down or just another example of unreliable power levels. Since Toriyama at least said Goku will continue to train in SSJ I think it still produces some power-up.

I feel like it should be noted that Roshi was in his buff form when he fired the Super Kamehameha that took out the moon. Considering how everyone thought he was going to use that attack to kill Oozaru Goku, who was ten times as strong as him, it seems pretty clear that Roshi's buff form is just insanely powerful relative to his base form. But there really isn't any consistent scale to power levels. A regular human being 5 should make that obvious.

Still his max power form should've been less than 1000. Power levels not following any consistent scale is what I was getting at. That's why I have to wonder when fans argue about power levels and say a certain a character is too high or too low which scale they're using. Or which kind of scale they're using when trying to calculate Goku's Buu saga stats. The insane exponential scale used in early Dragonball? The not so extreme exponential scale used later on in Dragonball? The somewhat linear and partially exponential scale used during the Saiyan saga? The linear scale used during the Frieza saga? Which scale did you use when you said Cell had a PL 60x Frieza? In the last saga power levels were used they seemed to linear when applied to Kaioken, SSJ, and Frieza's percentages. Do you have Cell being 60x more powerful than Frieza or did you go back to an early scale and which one did you use? For him to be a solar system buster he'd definitely need to be many, many times higher than 60x Frieza. If you used a different scale then there would have to be a reason why it went from linear again in the Frieza saga to another scale during the Cell saga.

Dodoria probably lost a lot of shuuki and yuuki because he was such a wuss, resulting in him dying very easily. Freeza, by contrast, actually tried to fight.

Doesn't shuuki and yuuki only affect his ki output? His overall ki reserves should still be 22,000 but he's just too scared to use them. He still died pretty easily even though Vegeta was only about 9% stronger than him. Then again who knows which scale was being used there. The linear scale used later on in the Frieza saga or one of the exponential scales used earlier in the story? This is after Goku used Kaioken which was linear. I honestly have no idea how someone could be confident in their power levels when the scale kept changing back and forth so much .

Grandpa Gohan didn't look unscathed in that panel.

He's just dirty.

From what ? Did he just wrestle Goku to the ground?

There's no evidence that he actually had to. If you assume that those really are scratches rather than just dirt, then toddler Goku and Gohan were equally strong, which is... well, wrong.

Grandpa Gohan survived his encounter with Goku so he had to be strong enough not to die. I'd say he's much stronger but still needed to use some effort so I don't think Goku was a tiny fraction of his powerlevel.

He was Roshi's greatest student, even stronger than Ox-King. I guess it depends on how strong Roshi was when he was training Gohan, since one would assume he was weaker than Roshi, and Roshi is very weak (relative to his younger self and 22nd Budokai level) at the beginning of the series. Post-21st Budokai Roshi says he couldn't win against a few dozen thugs with WW2-era small arms even with back-up from Yamcha and Krillin, and was plainly no match for Tao Paipai. 22nd Budokai Roshi was much, much stronger than a guy (Post-Karin Goku) who easily dispatched those same threats.

What do you guys think about having Mr. Satan at around Tao Pai Pai's level? He survived an encounter with him, Tao was apparently bloodlusted, and someone around Tao's level would still be treated as a joke in the series. Although Mr. Satan's feats top out at wall level, he was never shown to be hurt by the attacks so it's not his limit. Toriyama says he's weaker than Bob Sapp but that doesn't make any sense considering his feats and the fact that Toriyama said he survived against Tao.

I figured that Mr. Satan had "toon force" since he was a gag character . He survived against Cell and Kid Buu. I'm sure both of these enemies were greatly holding back but they would have to suppress their power to like 0.0000001% or something to avoid accidentally killing him.

[Kamiccolo9]

What do you guys think about having Mr. Satan at around Tao Pai Pai's level? He survived an encounter with him, Tao was apparently bloodlusted, and someone around Tao's level would still be treated as a joke in the series. Although Mr. Satan's feats top out at wall level, he was never shown to be hurt by the attacks so it's not his limit. Toriyama says he's weaker than Bob Sapp but that doesn't make any sense considering his feats and the fact that Toriyama said he survived against Tao.

He also survived against Cell. Does that mean that he can kill Freeza?

Human have brains to make their own decisions. Just because Taopaipai is stronger than him doesn't mean he can't restrain himself to not kill someone.

Outlier, otherwise 21st Budokai Roshi > Daimao. Tao never restrains himself

You mean like he totally went all out against Upa?

[RandomGuy96]

You mean like he totally went all out against Upa?

He also outright says he wasn't using his full effort against Goku the first time.

When Goku was suffering from the heart virus against #19 he wasn't at full strength but still able to maintain SSJ. Him and Vegeta had some of their energy absorbed but still were able stay in SSJ so I figured they had extra ki reserves in SSJ from their training. A set multiplier might mean they could get knocked out of SSJ if their power goes below the bare minimum of that form. I don't know how it worked during the Freeza saga. Goku was on the ground and could barely stand up after the Spirit Bomb but looked fine after SSJ and outlasted Freeza.

Why would it mean that?

I don't see how that contradicts anything in the manga. The 50x multiplier given in the Daizenshuu was only referring to Goku's fight against Freeza not every level of SSJ throughout the series. It was only the SEG that gave the multipliers for all the SSJ forms which came out 14 years after the manga ended. We know from the guide here on Kanzenshuu that Toriyama had little to involvement in the guidebooks. They don't seem to even be consistent with what we learned in his recent work. In the Buu saga SSJ2 Goku and Majin SSJ2 Vegeta were equal so I assume by Battle of Gods they were close to equal in base, SSJ1, and SSJ2. With one massive rage boost in SSJ1, Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku instead of transforming into SSJ2 or 3. If he was in SSJ2 then would it have resulted in an even bigger rage boost? Then Toriyama says that SSJ2 and 3 are just "powered-up variations" of SSJ1 and that Goku probably won't bother with any form besides base and SSJ1. If they were set multipliers like the SEG suggests then SSJ2 and 3 would always be higher than whatever Goku's current SSJ1 was. Then again turning SSJ1 against Beerus didn't seem to make a big difference so either the multiplier went down or just another example of unreliable power levels. Since Toriyama at least said Goku will continue to train in SSJ I think it still produces some power-up.

SEG states that x50 is for the form in general. Not just its initial version. Again, there's no reason to doubt the official information on this one.

He WAS in SS2, the anime just doesn't like to put lightning in. Toriyama and BOG are just bullshitting. BOG in particular makes the manga make no sense if that scene with Vegeta's "rage boost" is actually taken literally. As for base Goku, they're just setting him up to take Gohan's shtick.

Still his max power form should've been less than 1000. Power levels not following any consistent scale is what I was getting at. That's why I have to wonder when fans argue about power levels and say a certain a character is too high or too low which scale they're using. Or which kind of scale they're using when trying to calculate Goku's Buu saga stats. The insane exponential scale used in early Dragonball? The not so extreme exponential scale used later on in Dragonball? The somewhat linear and partially exponential scale used during the Saiyan saga? The linear scale used during the Freeza saga? Which scale did you use when you said Cell had a PL 60x Freeza? In the last saga power levels were used they seemed to linear when applied to Kaioken, SSJ, and Freeza's percentages. Do you have Cell being 60x more powerful than Freeza or did you go back to an early scale and which one did you use? For him to be a solar system buster he'd definitely need to be many, many times higher than 60x Freeza. If you used a different scale then there would have to be a reason why it went from linear again in the Freeza saga to another scale during the Cell saga.

No idea. I just used the BP scale. It's never explained how it works, but it's viewed as accurate in-universe, so why not?

Doesn't shuuki and yuuki only affect his ki output? His overall ki reserves should still be 22,000 but he's just too scared to use them. He still died pretty easily even though Vegeta was only about 9% stronger than him. Then again who knows which scale was being used there. The linear scale used later on in the Freeza saga or one of the exponential scales used earlier in the story? This is after Goku used Kaioken which was linear. I honestly have no idea how someone could be confident in their power levels when the scale kept changing back and forth so much .

What I mean is, due to losing shuuki and yuuki, he wasn't able to use the power he would normally use, so he was effectively much weaker. It's like when Goku said that Captain Ginyu could only use about a quarter of the power of the body he stole because his mind and body weren't one.

From what ? Did he just wrestle Goku to the ground?

Goku kicked up dirt on him.

Grandpa Gohan survived his encounter with Goku so he had to be strong enough not to die. I'd say he's much stronger but still needed to use some effort so I don't think Goku was a tiny fraction of his powerlevel.

Again, going by this logic BODB Goku and old Gohan are equally powerful, or the former is stronger. Which is obviously wrong.

What do you guys think about having Mr. Satan at around Tao Pai Pai's level? He survived an encounter with him, Tao was apparently bloodlusted, and someone around Tao's level would still be treated as a joke in the series. Although Mr. Satan's feats top out at wall level, he was never shown to be hurt by the attacks so it's not his limit. Toriyama says he's weaker than Bob Sapp but that doesn't make any sense considering his feats and the fact that Toriyama said he survived against Tao.

Mr. Satan doesn't actually have any impressive feats outside of the anime and gags.

Tao Paipai [FP] > Tao Paipai [initial] > RRA arc Goku >= 21st Budokai Goku > 21st Budokai Krillin > 21st Budokai Yamcha > BODB Goku > 9mm pistol bullet > Mr. Satan

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Fusion Reborn

Spoiler:

Goku - 620,000,000
---Super Saiyan - 31,000,000,000
---Super Saiyan 3 - 248,000,000,000

Gohan - 2,200,000,000

Goten - 365,000,000
---Super Saiyan - 18,250,000,000

Trunks - 385,000,000
---Super Saiyan - 19,250,000,000

Janempa - 205,000,000,000
---Super Janemba (suppressed) - 338,000,000,000
---Super Janemba (full power) - 500,000,000,000

Vegeta - 620,000,000
---Super Saiyan 2 - 62,000,000,000

Super Gogeta - 1,860,000,000,000

Gotenks (Super Saiyan) - 1,095,000,000,000

Boo arc for reference

Spoiler:

Gohan (post Zeta sword training) - 2,200,000,000
---Mastered Super Saiyan - 110,000,000,000
---Super Saiyan 2 - 220,000,000,000

Majin Boo - 198,000,000,000
---Angered to the point of splitting - 350,000,000,000
---Good Boo - 122,500,000,000
---Evil Boo - 227,500,000,000

Gotenks (post RoSaT training) - 438,000,000,000
---Super Saiyan - 1,095,000,000,000
---Kamikaze Ghost Attack ~ 10,000,000,000,000
---Super Saiyan 3 - 8,760,000,000,000

Goten - 365,000,000
---Super Saiyan - 18,250,000,000

Trunks - 385,000,000
---Super Saiyan - 19,250,000,000

Gohan (post Elder Kaioshin ritual) - 11,000,000,000,000

Super Boo - 7,300,000,000,000
---Bootenks - 16,060,000,000,000
---Boohan - 18,000,000,000,000
---Kamikaze Ghost Attack ~ 180,000,000,000,000

Kibitoshin - 135,000,000,000

Goku - 620,000,000
---Super Saiyan 3 - 248,000,000,000

Vegeta (post-Majin) - 620,000,000
---Super Saiyan 2 - 62,000,000,000

[Skar]

Why would it mean that?

What do you mean? Sorry I didn't understand what part of the comment you were asking about.

SEG states that x50 is for the form in general. Not just its initial version. Again, there's no reason to doubt the official information on this one.

He WAS in SS2, the anime just doesn't like to put lightning in. Toriyama and BOG are just bullshitting. BOG in particular makes the manga make no sense if that scene with Vegeta's "rage boost" is actually taken literally. As for base Goku, they're just setting him up to take Gohan's shtick.

I'm not doubting official information because the SEG was not written by Toriyama. They don't even claim these numbers came from Toriyama in the guidebooks. I didn't think it made much sense that SSJ1 or SSJ2 Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku with a rage boost consider he never had one of those in the series but a movie where the author was involved in and helped with the story > a guidebook not written by that author. I'm not sure if it was SSJ1 or 2. I don't remember if Goku had any lightning when he powered up to SSJ2 and SSJ3 against Beerus on King Kai's planet.

No idea. I just used the BP scale. It's never explained how it works, but it's viewed as accurate in-universe, so why not?

That doesn't really answer the question. In-universe the power level scale was consistently inconsistent. It was just a bunch of increasing numbers thrown out without being consistent to any sort of scale because that scale kept changing back and forth. I'm asking which scale you decided to use for your post-Frieza saga power levels. If you used the exponential scale from early Dragonball then 60x the power levels makes Cell several trillion times the power of Frieza. If you used the lesser exponential scale from later on in Dragonball then it 60x the power level might translate to a few hundred or thousand times the power. If you use the apparent linear scale from the Frieza saga then 60x the power level would only be 60x the power. Toriyama didn't take power levels seriously and never intended for them to be taken seriously. As fans who are trying to make sense of them the numbers won't have any meaning unless you clarify which scale you're using from the series.

What I mean is, due to losing shuuki and yuuki, he wasn't able to use the power he would normally use, so he was effectively much weaker. It's like when Goku said that Captain Ginyu could only use about a quarter of the power of the body he stole because his mind and body weren't one.

I don't know I thought Ginyu couldn't use Goku's power because he had trouble getting used to the body. Goku has more control over himself but he had trouble getting used to Ginyu's body.

Again, going by this logic BODB Goku and old Gohan are equally powerful, or the former is stronger. Which is obviously wrong.

That's true but the fact that Grandpa Gohan had to use any effort at all would mean Goku was already stronger than an average human when he arrived on Earth. Did he go from a six or seven to a power level of ten in the nine years he trained with Grandpa Gohan? So if Goku crash landed in the desert and lived by himself then would he have barely been stronger than an average human by the time he reached the age of 12?

[kuartus4]

This is my PL list. The m=million.

Mecha arc:

Spoiler:

King Cold: 115 m
Suppressed Mecha Frieza:112
Mecha Frieza: 160 m
SS Trunks: 200 m
SS Goku: 240 m

Future timeline-

One arm SS Gohan:185 m
Future Android 17: 430m
Future Android 18: 430 m

Android arc:

Spoiler:

Base Android 19: 128 m
Base Android 20: 128 m
Android 19 Post Goku: 225 m
Android 19 Post Vegeta: 311 m
Android 20 post Yamcha: 144 m
Android 20 post Vegeta blast: 147.2 m
Android 20 post Suppressed Piccolo: 253.86 m

Yamcha: 16 m
Tien: 28.8 m
Krillin: 35.2 m
Base Gohan: 80 m
Base Goku: 95 m
Base Vegeta: 100 m
Weighted Suppressed Piccolo: 106.66 m
Unweighted Suppressed Piccolo: 118.4 m
FP Piccolo: 320

Sick SS Goku standing: 112 m
Sick SS Goku: 160 m
Sick SS Goku post khh: 125 m
SS Trunks: 360 m
Healthy SS Goku: 380 m
SS Vegeta standing: 192 m
SS Vegeta : 400 m

Ginger Town Imperfect Cell: 480 m
Post humans Imperfect Cell: 1000 m
Android 16: 960 m
Android 17: 640 m
Android 18: 600 m
Weighted Kamiccolo: 600 m
FP Kamiccolo: 640 m

Cell arc:

Spoiler:

Initial Semi Perfect Cell: 1,800 m
FP Semi Perfect Cell: 2,400 m
Suppressed SS Vegeta: 1,600 m
SS Vegeta: 2,880 m
ASS Vegeta 3,600 m
SS Trunks: 2,640 m
ASS Trunks: 3,300 m
USS Trunks: 7,920 m
SS Goku: 720 m
ASS Goku: 960 m
USS Goku: 2,160 m
Initial Perfect Cell: 3,200 m
1st power up Perfect Cell: 6,600 m
50% MSS Goku: 6,000 m

-Cell Games

Kamiccolo: 1,800 m
MSS Trunks: 8,000 m
MSS Vegeta: 8,300 m
MSS Goku: 12,000 m
MSS Gohan: 16,000 m
2nd power up Perfect Cell: 13,330 m
3rd power up Perfect Cell: 18,000 m
FP Perfect Cell: 27,000 m
Giant Buff Perfect Cell: 36,000 m
Rage boosted SS2 Gohan: 72,000 m
Non rage boosted SS2 Gohan: 48,000 m
Super Perfect Cell: 54,000 m

Buu arc:

Spoiler:

Piccolo: 2,300 m
Kaioshin: 4,000 m
Kibito: 2,500 m
Base Goten: 600 m
Base Trunks: 640 m
Android 18: 640 m
MSS Goten: 2,400 m
MSS Trunks: 2,560 m
MSS Gohan: 16,000 m
MSS Vegeta: 18,000 m
MSS Goku: 26,000 m = 3,000 kiri
Pui Pui: 2,500 m
Yakon: 7,000 m = 800 kiri

SS2 Gohan: 48,000 m
Dabra: 45,000 m
SS2 Goku: 78,000 m
SS2 Majin Vegeta: 78,000 m

Fat Buu:
-Initial: 58,000 m
-1st Power up: 85,000 m
-2nd Power up: 100,000 m
-Post Angry explosion: 156,000 m

SS3 Goku: 234,000 m

Pre Rosat Base Gotenks: 65,000
Pre Rosat SS Gotenks: 260,000

Grey Buu: 100,000 m
Good Buu: 56,000 m

Initial Super Buu: 380,000 m
-1st Power up: 1,500,000 m
-Full Power: 11,700,000 m
Post Rosat base Gotenks: 360,000 m
Post Rosat SS Gotenks: 1,440,000 m
SS3 Gotenks: 12,960,000 m

Mystic Gohan: 17,700,000 m
Gotenks Buu: 24,633,000 m
Piccolo Buu: 11,705,000 m
Gohan Buu: 29,405,000 m

Base Vegetto: 30,000,000 m
SS Vegetto: 120,000,000 m

Kibitoshin: 70,000 m
Buff Buu: 18,000,000 m
Pure Buu: 235,000 m
Mr. Buu: 156,000 m

[Skar]

This is my PL list.

Interesting list. Are you using the same scale from the Frieza saga or one of the earlier ones? There is no scale but it helps me "visualize" and add some meaning to the numbers if they were meant to be linear or some other scale from earlier in the story.

Anyway some of them during the Buu saga seem a little high like base Goten and Trunks being 600 million and Pui Pui being 2.5 billion. We know from Battle of Gods base Goku is still weaker than Frieza so of course the base kids would have to be weaker than base Goku.

[ZombieVito]

Kibito > Piccolo.....

[kuartus4]

What's wrong with Kibito>Piccolo?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What's wrong with Kibito>Piccolo?

Kibito is stated in the Daizenshuu to be weaker than base Gohan.

[Skar]

What's wrong with Kibito>Piccolo?

Kibito is stated in the Daizenshuu to be weaker than base Gohan.

Base Gohan was able to wield the Z Sword while Kibito couldn't even pick it up. I'm pretty sure that's how the Daizenshuu came to that conclusion. It's stated that the Daizenshuu wasn't written by Toriyama so the only way they could've known that is by checking the manga as their source same as all the fans.

[Kaboom]

Kibito was never specifically said to be weaker than Gohan, technically. Just that his power level is pretty high, enough to give base Gohan a tough fight. Which could even mean stronger, but at least that they're close. I do think it's best to consider Kibito just moderately weaker, enough that Gohan would have to go all-out (sans Super Saiyan) to defeat him in a serious fight.

The Z-Sword bit, if one wishes to explain it, could easily be chalked up to a larger difference in physical strength than in battle power. Gohan's part Saiyan, a brutish race built for fighting, while the Core-People like Kibito are more "mystical" and reliant on strange powers. Makes sense to me.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's stated that the Daizenshuu wasn't written by Toriyama so the only way they could've known that is by checking the manga as their source same as all the fans.

The Daizenshuu writers don't have the same resources as normal fans. They most likely have things like Toriyama's memos, and even Toriyama himself to ask if necessary. Toriyama didn't write the Daizenshuu, but he was involved with them. Not saying that their source about Kibito's power wasn't just the manga (this could very well be the case), we just can't know if they pulled it from their manga, from Toriyama, or from their asses.

[Skar]

The Z-Sword bit, if one wishes to explain it, could easily be chalked up to a larger difference in physical strength than in battle power. Gohan's part Saiyan, a brutish race built for fighting, while the Core-People like Kibito are more "mystical" and reliant on strange powers. Makes sense to me.

That's possible but when Toriyama said "There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”." I thought that characters already hit their limit in physical strength early on in the story. Ki has to be linked with physical strength somehow since they've been shown to increase their overall ki by training in higher gravity, lifting weights, wearing weighed clothes, doing push-ups, etc. I agree that Saiyans are physically stronger than other races without taking ki into consideration but it seems like by the Buu saga everyone's physical strength is being amplified by ki. Gohan transformed to SSJ to increase his strength in order to pull out the Z Sword so it might've been harder to pull it out than wield it normally since he did that in base.

The Daizenshuu writers don't have the same resources as normal fans. They most likely have things like Toriyama's memos, and even Toriyama himself to ask if necessary. Toriyama didn't write the Daizenshuu, but he was involved with them. Not saying that their source about Kibito's power wasn't just the manga (this could very well be the case), we just can't know if they pulled it from their manga, from Toriyama, or from their asses.

The Daizenshuu documented all of Toriyama's interviews and notes, memos, rough drafts, etc. It would be in their best interest to provide as much information from Toriyama as they can to add credibility. I'm pretty sure if Toriyama didn't directly say it in an interview or some kind of note then the Daizenshuu writers got that information from the manga since that would be the only remaining source.