Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

No, it's too unrealistic and stupid. We can't just accept something so unrealistic just to make everything else fit.

We could just accept MaGyunia's explanation that after a certain point, SS powerups increase you by less than x50, or x2 or x4, for SSJ and 2 and 3 respectively.

Unrealistic? But Gohan getting 1,300x stronger in the Saiyan arc isn't unrealistic? The point Vegeta got stronger than SS3 Goku is where it became unrealistic. At this point, him becoming stronger than SS3 Goku or stronger than SS Vegetto is the same thing: it doesn't make sense either way.

That's making needless assumptions.

[Birusu16]

Like I said before, DB isn't supposed to be realistic. SSJ2 Vegeta becoming stronger than SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan is unrealistic to yet that's what we have. Such a boost for Vegeta may not be liked or realistic, but it's what we have, especially since Goku believed not even fusion could stand up to a Beerus who used less power on him than on Vegeta.

[SaiyanGod117]

No it's doesn't you gave SSJ3 Goku a one ,we all know that isn't true cause Beerus beat, SSJ3 Gotenks quite easily.

No, reread my post. I gave SSJ3 Goku a 0.5.

I gave SSJ3 Goku a 1 when compared to Buuhan.

I reread it was confusing but anyways fancalcs and DBZ don't mix so I still believe Whis,Beerus,SSG>SSJ3 Vegito.

[Chiki]

No, it's too unrealistic and stupid. We can't just accept something so unrealistic just to make everything else fit.

We could just accept MaGyunia's explanation that after a certain point, SS powerups increase you by less than x50, or x2 or x4, for SSJ and 2 and 3 respectively.

Unrealistic? But Gohan getting 1,300x stronger in the Saiyan arc isn't unrealistic? The point Vegeta got stronger than SS3 Goku is where it became unrealistic. At this point, him becoming stronger than SS3 Goku or stronger than SS Vegetto is the same thing: it doesn't make sense either way.

That's making needless assumptions.

That's not a good example. Gohan tapped into his hidden power to get a 1300x boost, he was a normal baby at first. I actually think that's perfectly fine and realistic, because we know that half Saiyans have amazing potential as confirmed by Toriyama. A better example would be Goku's insane zenkai boost right before he battled Frieza. Even with these unrealistic things happening, like Goku and Vegeta getting a zenkai boost, there is still some kind of logic in DBZ. For example, you don't see Krillin magically fighting Buu or Yamcha fighting Cell. SSJ2 Vegeta being above SSJ Vegito would be about as stupid as that.

...And saying that SSJ2 Vegeta can get a rage boost to put him over SSJ Vegito is an even bigger needless assumption. It's not just needless, it's also silly. One needless assumption is better than a silly assumption! MaGyunia's assumption is better than yours.

Also, there is evidence for MaGyunia's assertion that SSJ boosts become smaller as a character's base becomes stronger. Base God Goku is around a 6. We know SSGSS Goku is weaker than Beerus, who is a 10. So SSGSS Goku is probably around an 8, which gives Goku only a x1.3333 boost. As Base Namek Goku turned into Base God Goku, his SSJ boost went from x50 to x1.3333. That's pretty remarkable and that proves MaGyunia right.

So we have evidence to accept that an SSJ boost goes below x50 as a character gets more powerful, and we have zero reason to believe that raging SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ Vegito. It's clear who is right here.

I reread it was confusing but anyways fancalcs and DBZ don't mix so I still believe Whis,Beerus,SSG>SSJ3 Vegito.

I actually only used Toriyama's statement that Goku is a 6 and Beerus is a 10, and that Beerus used 10% of his power against Vegeta.

[Doctor.]

And just like Gohan got a rage boost, so did Vegeta here. The point is that Vegeta getting a rage boost in the first place is stupid. If he got a 4x boost or a 200x boost is irrelevant, the concept was still stupid. But, unfortunately, it exists.

We don't have zero reason to believe Vegeta is stronger. If Vegeta is weaker, than Vegetto ends up stronger than God Goku. Which is impossible and completely nullifies the entire point of the transformation in the first place. Vegeta has to be stronger.

If anything, Super Saiyan multipliers kept increasing. We don't know how SS multipliers work with Godly Ki so that example is irrelevant.

[Birusu16]

Why would we assume a SSJ form becomes less powerful the more powerful the users base is? The only time that happened was when the god power came into play and that could very well be the reason as to why the multiplier was less. There's no other examples to support such a claim.

I also don't see how SSJ2 Vegeta being stronger than SSJ Vegetto is anymore ridiculous than him being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, SSJ3 Goku, and Ultimate Gohan. Yes, Vegetto's more powerful than the latter 3, but all 4 are absurdly above a normal SSJ2 Vegeta, so being stronger than any of them as a SSJ2 through simple rage is absurd to begin with. The absurdity of it doesn't change the fact that it's what we have.

[SaiyanGod117]

I actually only used Toriyama's statement that Goku is a 6 and Beerus is a 10, and that Beerus used 10% of his power against Vegeta.[/quote]
Still a fancalc, also hasn't their been some statements from Toriyama. Saying, Beerus and Whis are the strongest in the history of Z even if he didn't say that. It is impiled, furthermore if what you're saying is true why didn't Goku just fuse to beat Beerus.

[dbzfan7]

Ah the 10% comment. The next dumb comment after 1.3 million. Considering this is not the In-Universe thread, I simply stick with they don't give a rat's ass about power levels, and make up shit as they go along. They probably thought 10% was pretty minuscule, but not too low as to make Vegeta look too bad after being beaten. I ain't gonna bother trying to rationalize this nonsense, but good luck to those who even want to try.

There's nothing to rationalize. Vegeta got stronger than Vegetto and enraged Vegetto would probably kill Beerus, that's all there is to it.

Is it stupid? Yes.

Seriously Super and the Neo era sit right next to GT on the "Fuck it" power levels list. Neither is worth any thought to try and make sense of. This kind of scaling sounds like a fanfiction come to life. Take it away Veggie

[Doctor.]

Ah the 10% comment. The next dumb comment after 1.3 million. Considering this is not the In-Universe thread, I simply stick with they don't give a rat's ass about power levels, and make up shit as they go along. They probably thought 10% was pretty minuscule, but not too low as to make Vegeta look too bad after being beaten. I ain't gonna bother trying to rationalize this nonsense, but good luck to those who even want to try.

There's nothing to rationalize. Vegeta got stronger than Vegetto and enraged Vegetto would probably kill Beerus, that's all there is to it.

Is it stupid? Yes.

Seriously Super and the Neo era sit right next to GT on the "Fuck it" power levels list. Neither is worth any thought to try and make sense of. This kind of scaling sounds like a fanfiction come to life. Take it away Veggie

I'd add the Boo arc to that list too. That's where power levels started making even less sense and where most of the discussions come from (Which is the strongest Boo? Is SS3 Goku stronger than Gotenks and Gohan? Can Vegetto go SS3? How powerful is a hypothetical Gogeta? How strong is Dabra compared to Cell? Is Gohan SS2 against Dabra? etc). Up until then, Dragon Ball did a really good job of keeping things consistent, even if some stuff, like the androids being stronger than Freeza, are a bit stupid.

[Birusu16]

If they'd of just left this rage crap out then it'd be fine, but this one aspect alone screws everything up.

Wait Doctor, why would you have God Goku weaker if Vegeta was weaker than SSJ Vegetto?

[dbzfan7]

There's nothing to rationalize. Vegeta got stronger than Vegetto and enraged Vegetto would probably kill Beerus, that's all there is to it.

Is it stupid? Yes.

Seriously Super and the Neo era sit right next to GT on the "Fuck it" power levels list. Neither is worth any thought to try and make sense of. This kind of scaling sounds like a fanfiction come to life. Take it away Veggie

I'd add the Boo arc to that list too. That's where power levels started making even less sense and where most of the discussions come from (Which is the strongest Boo? Is SS3 Goku stronger than Gotenks and Gohan? Can Vegetto go SS3? How powerful is a hypothetical Gogeta? How strong is Dabra compared to Cell? Is Gohan SS2 against Dabra? etc). Up until then, Dragon Ball did a really good job of keeping things consistent, even if some stuff, like the androids being stronger than Freeza, are a bit stupid.

Really I don't think the Boo arc is too bad. I think plenty of in manga statements are covered. It's the supplementary material (some guidebook descriptions and anime bullshit) that caused it to get fucked up and future material being very sneaky. I definitely agree the Cell arc made things very clear and was the last arc to be straight forward. Boo was the starting point of frustrations, and is the most debated arc of the old era.

[ekrolo2]

Seriously Super and the Neo era sit right next to GT on the "Fuck it" power levels list. Neither is worth any thought to try and make sense of. This kind of scaling sounds like a fanfiction come to life. Take it away Veggie

I'd add the Boo arc to that list too. That's where power levels started making even less sense and where most of the discussions come from (Which is the strongest Boo? Is SS3 Goku stronger than Gotenks and Gohan? Can Vegetto go SS3? How powerful is a hypothetical Gogeta? How strong is Dabra compared to Cell? Is Gohan SS2 against Dabra? etc). Up until then, Dragon Ball did a really good job of keeping things consistent, even if some stuff, like the androids being stronger than Freeza, are a bit stupid.

Really I don't think the Boo arc is too bad. I think plenty of in manga statements are covered. It's the supplementary material (some guidebook descriptions and anime bullshit) that caused it to get fucked up and future material being very sneaky. I definitely agree the Cell arc made things very clear and was the last arc to be straight forward. Boo was the starting point of frustrations, and is the most debated arc of the old era.

Boo kind of started mudding things up once the multiple Boo's began appearing then introducing two separate types of fusion and Gohan's mystic form which no one seems to get or agree on definitely started breaking things on this end. Though, what is the "Neo era"?

[Doctor.]

If they'd of just left this rage crap out then it'd be fine, but this one aspect alone screws everything up.

Wait Doctor, why would you have God Goku weaker if Vegeta was weaker than SSJ Vegetto?

Because God Goku is 60% of Beerus. If SS Vegetto is stronger than Vegeta, that means SS Vegetto is around 10%. Meaning SS3 Vegetto would be around 80%, still weaker than Beerus sure, but Vegetto being stronger than SSG completely destroys the purpose of the transformation in the first place.

[Birusu16]

If they'd of just left this rage crap out then it'd be fine, but this one aspect alone screws everything up.

Wait Doctor, why would you have God Goku weaker if Vegeta was weaker than SSJ Vegetto?

Because God Goku is 60% of Beerus. If SS Vegetto is stronger than Vegeta, that means SS Vegetto is around 10%. Meaning SS3 Vegetto would be around 80%, still weaker than Beerus sure, but Vegetto being stronger than SSG completely destroys the purpose of the transformation in the first place.

Oh, I thought you were just referring to SS Vegetto. Guess that's why it didn't make much sense to me.

[Chiki]

And just like Gohan got a rage boost, so did Vegeta here. The point is that Vegeta getting a rage boost in the first place is stupid. If he got a 4x boost or a 200x boost is irrelevant, the concept was still stupid. But, unfortunately, it exists.

We don't have zero reason to believe Vegeta is stronger. If Vegeta is weaker, than Vegetto ends up stronger than God Goku. Which is impossible and completely nullifies the entire point of the transformation in the first place. Vegeta has to be stronger.

If anything, Super Saiyan multipliers kept increasing. We don't know how SS multipliers work with Godly Ki so that example is irrelevant.

Gohan is an untrained half-Saiyan baby with super potential, unlike Vegeta who is a trained Saiyan.

There's a distinction between an independent reason and a reason made up to fit the facts. I have an independent reason that SS multipliers become lower as a character gets stronger, and by independent I mean a reason that has nothing to do with making SSJ Vegito weaker than Beerus - Base Namek Goku vs. Base God Goku. The SSGSS multiplier is much smaller than the SS multiplier during the Namek Saga. The only reason you defend SSJ2 Vegeta being stronger than SSJ Vegito is simply to make the facts fit. It's a weak argument.

Godly ki doesn't really seem to matter much anymore. Frieza could fight against God Goku and Vegeta without godly ki. SSJ2 Raging Vegeta was almost 10% as powerful as Beerus. Drawing the distinction between normal and godly ki won't fly anymore; the only difference is that godly ki can't be sensed whereas normal ki can.

[MaGyunia]

Holy shit, I get away from the computer for one afternoon and there are two pages worth of reply to the debate we were having. There's just too much interesting stuff all of you have written in terms of power levels both to my estimates and to others', so I'm not going to reply to any of them at the moment, I'll do it probably tomorrow, there really is a lot to be thought about and written.

[Doctor.]

Gohan is an untrained half-Saiyan baby with super potential, unlike Vegeta who is a trained Saiyan.

And that matters because? Like I said, Vegeta still got a rage boost. It doesn't make sense, but he got one. The point is that it doesn't matter how much of a boost it was, because the simple concept of him getting a boost is stupid in the first place.

There's a distinction between an independent reason and a reason made up to fit the facts. I have an independent reason that SS multipliers become lower as a character gets stronger, and by independent I mean a reason that has nothing to do with making SSJ Vegito weaker than Beerus - Base Namek Goku vs. Base God Goku. The SSGSS multiplier is much smaller than the SS multiplier during the Namek Saga. The only reason you defend SSJ2 Vegeta being stronger than SSJ Vegito is simply to make the facts fit. It's a weak argument.

I have an independent reason that SS multipliers became bigger, what's your point here? I've been using SS as a 100x multiplier ever since Goku and Gohan mastered it in my PL lists for a long time, before this episode even aired. My reason being that Goku and Gohan's training would make more sense if they could master Grade 2 and 3's power in their normal Super Saiyan form and tap into it that way. It also fits in with Toriyama's comment about SS being more beneficial than SS2 or 3. But guess what, this is just my theory, it's not a fact, just like multipliers decreasing is not a fact, and should not be used in arguments debating factual stuff.

"Trying to make facts fit" is a bad thing, apparently? Like I said, Vegetto has to be weaker than God Goku. Reason being that Super Saiyan God's existence would be completely pointless if that wasn't the case, since Goku said he couldn't defeat Beerus with fusion and SSG is a realm of power Goku said he could never achieve. Unless you believe that, for some reason, Vegetto can't use SS3, then SS Vegetto has to be weaker than Rage Vegeta in order for things to make sense. I don't really care if it's unrealistic to you, it's either Vegeta's rage boost being super unrealistic, or the story being wrong. And the story isn't wrong, so that only leaves one option.

Godly ki doesn't really seem to matter much anymore. Freeza could fight against God Goku and Vegeta without godly ki. SSJ2 Raging Vegeta was almost 10% as powerful as Beerus. Drawing the distinction between normal and godly ki won't fly anymore; the only difference is that godly ki can't be sensed whereas normal ki can.

I don't see why that matters. Godly Ki has different properties to normal Ki, so I don't see why it's obligatory that SS multipliers work the same way. They don't, obviously.

[dbzfan7]

I'd add the Boo arc to that list too. That's where power levels started making even less sense and where most of the discussions come from (Which is the strongest Boo? Is SS3 Goku stronger than Gotenks and Gohan? Can Vegetto go SS3? How powerful is a hypothetical Gogeta? How strong is Dabra compared to Cell? Is Gohan SS2 against Dabra? etc). Up until then, Dragon Ball did a really good job of keeping things consistent, even if some stuff, like the androids being stronger than Freeza, are a bit stupid.

Really I don't think the Boo arc is too bad. I think plenty of in manga statements are covered. It's the supplementary material (some guidebook descriptions and anime bullshit) that caused it to get fucked up and future material being very sneaky. I definitely agree the Cell arc made things very clear and was the last arc to be straight forward. Boo was the starting point of frustrations, and is the most debated arc of the old era.

Boo kind of started mudding things up once the multiple Boo's began appearing then introducing two separate types of fusion and Gohan's mystic form which no one seems to get or agree on definitely started breaking things on this end. Though, what is the "Neo era"?

I still think the things that caught people off most was not having the final foe be at the most powerful stage like usual, and the anime/supplementary material. We also have the Dabura vagueness and SSJ/2 Gohan vagueness that doesn't help. I didn't say Boo was good, but not too terribly difficult to put together. Neo era is the resurgence era of Dragon Ball. Arguably starts from either Yo Son Goku and Friends, or Battle of Gods.

[MaGyunia]

Like I said before, DB isn't supposed to be realistic. SSJ2 Vegeta becoming stronger than SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan is unrealistic to yet that's what we have. Such a boost for Vegeta may not be liked or realistic, but it's what we have, especially since Goku believed not even fusion could stand up to a Beerus who used less power on him than on Vegeta.

Pretty much. Vegeta and Goku have both been deemed fighting geniuses on numerous occasions throughout DBZ (by each other and by others), but both of them lack Gohan's inherent "ability" to go berserk when pushed to his emotional limits, giving him not only a massive power boost in his numerous "tantrums" in the first half of the series but also resulting in a temporary psychotic episode (as in, loss of control over one's actions, to the point of not even remembering having performed them), the Cell Games Super Saiya-jin 2 trigger being the only instance in which he seems to be able to maintain some degree of control over his emotional stability while he thrashes the Cell Juniors and Cell himself (perhaps due to having achieved a natural, age-related emotional maturity).

The word "mutation" present in the title of episode 7 is pretty much the perfect term to describe what Vegeta undergoes in episodes 7 and 8 of DBSuper, instead of an actual, physical "transformation", since what he experiences is a freakish, temporary occurrence which allows him, very temporarily, to go beyond the power limits "imposed" to/by the Super Saiya-jin 2 stage. Going beyond the power limits of a particular Super Saiya-jin stage is so rare an occurrence in anyone except Gohan that it's the entire reason why Vegeta's power boost in BoG and DBSuper after Beerus hits Bulma has been over-debated to death. Weird stuff does happen here and there, not only to Gohan. The fusion technique is another example of presenting and producing entirely freakish results in the ultimately fused warrior (such as Vegitto being far stronger than any Super Saiya-jin 2 or even Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku even in his BASE form). Going back to Vegeta, despite losing his shit to the point of, for a few seconds, losing his pupils, he doesn't tap into any hidden power as a result, simply because he doesn't have it the way Gohan does (and Vegeta has numerous instances of emotional instability and going berserk with anger and/or frustration, without it resulting in any power boost whatsoever - actually, his pathological pride gets in the way and prevents him from using his trademark intelligence and strategic fighting mind, whenever he comes across an adversary who surpasses him after he - once again - proclaims himself to have surpassed Kakarotto and become the strongest warrior in the Universe.

[Bullza]

Wait why exactly are there people saying Vegeta is stronger than Vegito?