Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't recall ever seeing that comment. Could you show me where your read that?

Ask RandomGuy96. He replied to one of my threads telling me that so he would know

What makes the gaps too "tight"? Power levels were never consistent so I'm just curious what would be consider too tight.

There'd be no point in making a PL list if I just deemed every single gap inconsistent and just made random ass pull ones.

Did the Daizenshuu really say base Goten and Trunks were almost as strong as #18? I don't recall every reading that but even so a canon movie with Toriyama being involved in the story and script should hold more water than a guidebook not written by him. There's no reason that line would've been included in the movie if it wasn't true. Beerus said he doesn't think Goku can't defeat Freeza in base and Goku doesn't argue. That would be the first time in all of Dragonball that a character was underestimated by someone and didn't prove that person wrong immediately afterwards. If that line wasn't meant to mean anything Beerus could have easily said something like "I heard you were the one who defeated Freeza. Have you gotten any stronger since then?" to avoid making comment about his base form.

First off, you don't need to throw around the term 'canon'. And here's what I don't understand, Bulma says she is 38 in the movie, no one takes that to heart. Mai says she was pretty much 12 in the first arc, no one listens to that. But Beerus says "you look like you can't beat Freeza" and everyone listens to only him? The movie was introduced 20 year after the end of the story, it would make sense AT doesn't remember everything he was thinking back during the manga's run. And what I hate most is the interpretation of the quote

What Beerus said: "Funny, you don't --->LOOK<--- like you could beat Freeza. (note the key word: look)

what everyone thinks he said: "Huh, that's funny. When you are not transformed into a super saiyan your full power is lower than Freeza's 100% max. You and every saiyan who is not transformed would lose to Freeza."

and referring to Goten and Trunks;
The daizenshuu says they exhibited strenght on par with No. 18's, and this is actually supported by the manga unlike Beerus' comment.

1. I don't know if being Gohan's daughter is enough for her to be stronger than the Buu saga Base Saiyans by age 5. I assumed that because their fathers had already unlocked SSJ Goten and Trunks had easy access to that form. Goku was FPSSJ when Goten was conceived while Vegeta was only a novice SSJ but their kids were about the same strength. If a stronger parent = stronger offspring then Goten should've been way stronger than Trunks.

Let's not forget Trunks is a year older and trained more than Goten. If neither of them trained I wouldn't be shocked if Goten was the stronger one.

2. How does coming from a different generation result in them being millions of times stronger? All the generations of Saiyans on Planet Vegeta didn't result in every new generation being much stronger than the last. Will Pan's children be many times stronger than she was at that age just because they're from the next generation?

The generation rule as in the newer generation is always stronger than their parent was at said age
Goten (age 7) >>>> Gohan (age 7) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku (age 7)
Trunks (age 8 ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vegeta (age 8 )
Pan (age 4) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gohan (age 4)
Pan >>> Videl >>> Mr. Satan
it's a common trend in DB. Pan being Gohan's daughter means she has a lot of potential. Second to Gohan's or maybe even greater than Gohan's.

3. Well the preliminaries are part of the tournament and not all the opponents are Z fighters. It seems a little farfetched that "making it far" somehow implies she's almost three times stronger than base Goten and Trunks.

There's nothing wrong with her being stronger than Goten and Trunks, I don't see your problem.

I can understand ignoring guidebook power levels but canon power levels that actually appeared in the manga? I don't know that just sounds like you're saying "the author was wrong about the numbers he came up with in his story". The gaps don't really need to work because the entire power level system was meant to be inconsistent and nonsensical. Even making the gap wider wouldn't help since power levels weren't proportionate and the scale kept changing.

I'm not calling the author wrong. And as said above, there'd be no point in making a PL list if I could just say "every single gap is inconsistent" and just make random numbers. Kills the fun. That's why I can take gaps that are usually consistent (namely the Freeza arc ones) and apply them to other arcs.

[Skar]

Ask RandomGuy96. He replied to one of my threads telling me that so he would know

Okay I was hoping you had the actual source but I'll ask next time he's here.

There'd be no point in making a PL list if I just deemed every single gap inconsistent and just made random ass pull ones.

That's a reason why I don't make a PL list since I do think every gap is inconsistent aside from the few linear power levels. What I'm saying since you are making a PL list I'm curious why you considered the Daizenshuu Frieza saga power levels too tight.

First off, you don't need to throw around the term 'canon'. And here's what I don't understand, Bulma says she is 38 in the movie, no one takes that to heart. Mai says she was pretty much 12 in the first arc, no one listens to that. But Beerus says "you look like you can't beat Freeza" and everyone listens to only him? The movie was introduced 20 year after the end of the story, it would make sense AT doesn't remember everything he was thinking back during the manga's run. And what I hate most is the interpretation of the quote

I'm not sure why you took such offense to me using the term "canon". I just referring to the manga and movies that the author worked on and decided they take place in the same universe as the manga. Anyway Bulma and Mai are women and women lie about their age. I don't see how women lying about their age discredits Beerus' statement comparing base Goku to Frieza. I agree Toriyama doesn't have the best memory but if he really made the base Saiyans that much stronger than Frieza in the Cell and Buu saga then I don't think that's something he could easily forget. I doubt Beerus is so immature that he would actually base Goku's strength on just his appearance and even if Beerus was that dumb that wouldn't explain why Goku wouldn't correct him.

The daizenshuu says they exhibited strenght on par with No. 18's, and this is actually supported by the manga unlike Beerus' comment.

That doesn't make much sense since they were fighting for less than three pages before she knocked them to the ground and then they decided to transform. I could see that meaning that the SSJ kids were on par with #18. She was told to hold back and she didn't know who they were until they turned SSJ. If the Daizenshuu is implying that base kids = #18 then that would suggest she went all out from the beginning even though she thought Mighty Mask was just a regular human.

Let's not forget Trunks is a year older and trained more than Goten. If neither of them trained I wouldn't be shocked if Goten was the stronger one.

FPSSJ Goku was probably at 20x stronger than the novice SSJ1 Vegeta that conceived Trunks. If their parent's strength is taken into consideration then Goten should have been many, many times stronger than Trunks during the Buu saga. Being one year older and training a little more shouldn't be enough to close the gap between them unless Trunks did some diehard training and Goten was only messing around. That's why I don't see that as being a good explanation for why Pan would be that strong at age 5.

There's nothing wrong with her being stronger than Goten and Trunks, I don't see your problem.

There's nothing wrong with her being weaker than Goten and Trunks either. I have a problem with it because I don't see anything in the manga implying 5 year old Pan was stronger than 100% Frieza let alone almost 17x times stronger than him.

[Darkron2151]

First off, you don't need to throw around the term 'canon'. And here's what I don't understand, Bulma says she is 38 in the movie, no one takes that to heart. Mai says she was pretty much 12 in the first arc, no one listens to that. But Beerus says "you look like you can't beat Freeza" and everyone listens to only him? The movie was introduced 20 year after the end of the story, it would make sense AT doesn't remember everything he was thinking back during the manga's run. And what I hate most is the interpretation of the quote

What Beerus said: "Funny, you don't --->LOOK<--- like you could beat Freeza. (note the key word: look)

what everyone thinks he said: "Huh, that's funny. When you are not transformed into a super saiyan your full power is lower than Freeza's 100% max. You and every saiyan who is not transformed would lose to Freeza."

and referring to Goten and Trunks;
The daizenshuu says they exhibited strenght on par with No. 18's, and this is actually supported by the manga unlike Beerus' comment.

What else would Beerus be talking about other than power? And further more, he's the God of Destruction. You'd think that he would have the ability to sense how powerful Gokuis. And even if he couldn't (which is implied due to not only his position, but also his ability to know that Goku was hiding in Kaio's house and gauge his power), but even Ginyu was able to guess Goku's battle power pretty darn close. And again, there would be no point in putting the comment there if it weren't true or later to be proven wrong, which it hasn't.

Also, just because there's a few inconsistencies (some of which can be easily explained), doesn't mean we have to dismiss it entirely. By that logic, I can dismiss the ENTIRE MANGA because of the contradictions and inconsistencies inside the material.

And as for the Daiz statement about "Mighty Mask's" power, they were anything but "on par". They couldn't lay a finger on 18 and got thrashed about. All they could do was block a couple hits. That's it. Heck, there were parts where she was moving too fast for them to see, where she disappeared and reappeared right behind them. And keep in mind, she was suppressed the entire time. Then they turned Super Saiyan and she was scared straight of a suppressed ki blast.

Ask RandomGuy96. He replied to one of my threads telling me that so he would know

Okay I was hoping you had the actual source but I'll ask next time he's here.

He's referring to how Toriyama explained how Goku would get more out of training in Base and Super Saiyan, rather than the other two forms. Nowhere is it stated to "close any gaps" between forms, but just simply to "get more out of training". And even then, since Goku absorbed the god power, he doesn't even need Super Saiyans 2 and 3 anymore.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Okay I was hoping you had the actual source but I'll ask next time he's here.

I can link you to the thread if you want.

That's a reason why I don't make a PL list since I do think every gap is inconsistent aside from the few linear power levels. What I'm saying since you are making a PL list I'm curious why you considered the Daizenshuu Freeza saga power levels too tight.

Just based on observed gaps, I find it hard to believe initial true form Freeza (3 million) is only ~2x stronger than second form Freeza. There were 2 power ups and 1 transformation where Freeza went from below Piccolo to stomping him and that's roughy a 2x gap? Not likely (IMO)

I'm not sure why you took such offense to me using the term "canon". I just referring to the manga and movies that the author worked on and decided they take place in the same universe as the manga. Anyway Bulma and Mai are women and women lie about their age. I don't see how women lying about their age discredits Beerus' statement comparing base Goku to Freeza. I agree Toriyama doesn't have the best memory but if he really made the base Saiyans that much stronger than Freeza in the Cell and Buu saga then I don't think that's something he could easily forget. I doubt Beerus is so immature that he would actually base Goku's strength on just his appearance and even if Beerus was that dumb that wouldn't explain why Goku wouldn't correct him.

If you look at the context of the scene it doesn't seem like Bulma is lying, no one had asked her age, she said out loud on her own, and she was yelling at Beerus, that doesn't seem like the ideal time to try and lie to people about your age. And Mai wasn't lying either, she didn't even mean to say her real age, she slipped up and forgot she had a kid's body. Also, Goku isn't the type to correct someone, Goku wouldn't flat out say Beerus was wrong. And also, Kaio-sama told Goku not to anger Beerus so I doubt "you're wrong I can beat Freeza" would make him happy. And I wouldn't be surprised if he forgot about base saiyans. In fact, in the Boo arc he seems to hint at Base Saiyans > Piccolo a lot.

That doesn't make much sense since they were fighting for less than three pages before she knocked them to the ground and then they decided to transform. I could see that meaning that the SSJ kids were on par with #18. She was told to hold back and she didn't know who they were until they turned SSJ. If the Daizenshuu is implying that base kids = #18 then that would suggest she went all out from the beginning even though she thought Mighty Mask was just a regular human.

The panels before 18 smashes them into the ground shows them going fist for fist, and she didn't think he was a regular human, otherwise she wouldn't have shot a ki blast at them. and SSJ kids being on par with 18 wouldn't make sense since they were on par with Teen Gohan.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

What else would Beerus be talking about other than power? And further more, he's the God of Destruction. You'd think that he would have the ability to sense how powerful Goku is. And even if he couldn't (which is implied due to not only his position, but also his ability to know that Goku was hiding in Kaio's house and gauge his power), but even Ginyu was able to guess Goku's battle power pretty darn close. And again, there would be no point in putting the comment there if it weren't true or later to be proven wrong, which it hasn't.

If were gonna go the whole "that statement wasn't proven wrong" route, I'll use the Boo arc where Vegeta said he would win the tournament in base form despite Piccolo entering. There would be no point of putting that line in if AT wanted us to believe Piccolo > Vegeta, same with Gohan who said he would win in base, why put that in if he wants us to believe C18 > Base Gohan?

Also, just because there's a few inconsistencies (some of which can be easily explained), doesn't mean we have to dismiss it entirely. By that logic, I can dismiss the ENTIRE MANGA because of the contradictions and inconsistencies inside the material.

The movie creates more plot holes than the entire series. And pretty much every 'plot hole' in the manga can actually be explained.

And as for the Daiz statement about "Mighty Mask's" power, they were anything but "on par". They couldn't lay a finger on 18 and got thrashed about. All they could do was block a couple hits. That's it. Heck, there were parts where she was moving too fast for them to see, where she disappeared and reappeared right behind them. And keep in mind, she was suppressed the entire time. Then they turned Super Saiyan and she was scared straight of a suppressed ki blast.

Not true, they were blocking her hits and they were going fist for fist at first (while Goten couldn't see or kick and Trunks was restricted to the suit). There's also no parts where she was too fast for them. And nothing suggests she was suppressed, other wise why shoot a ki blast at them??

Also, if Trunks and Goten are weaker than Freeza and C18 is atleast 2-3x Freeza, why didn't she just one-shot them out of the ring? She did it to the humans before her so why not to Mighty Mask? Why drag the fight on? For the lulz?

[Skar]

He's referring to how Toriyama explained how Goku would get more out of training in Base and Super Saiyan, rather than the other two forms. Nowhere is it stated to "close any gaps" between forms, but just simply to "get more out of training". And even then, since Goku absorbed the god power, he doesn't even need Super Saiyans 2 and 3 anymore.

I see that's what I was thinking. I remember that being the only comment from Toriyama about base and SSJ.

I can link you to the thread if you want.

That would be helpful if it's a different comment than the one Darkron2151 was referring to.

Just based on observed gaps, I find it hard to believe initial true form Freeza (3 million) is only ~2x stronger than second form Freeza. There were 2 power ups and 1 transformation where Freeza went from below Piccolo to stomping him and that's roughy a 2x gap? Not likely (IMO)

Well okay I can't argue with the 2x gap since that made a big difference early on the story but apparently changed during the Frieza saga.

If you look at the context of the scene it doesn't seem like Bulma is lying, no one had asked her age, she said out loud on her own, and she was yelling at Beerus, that doesn't seem like the ideal time to try and lie to people about your age. And Mai wasn't lying either, she didn't even mean to say her real age, she slipped up and forgot she had a kid's body. Also, Goku isn't the type to correct someone, Goku wouldn't flat out say Beerus was wrong. And also, Kaio-sama told Goku not to anger Beerus so I doubt "you're wrong I can beat Freeza" would make him happy. And I wouldn't be surprised if he forgot about base saiyans. In fact, in the Boo arc he seems to hint at Base Saiyans > Piccolo a lot.

Still Toriyama forgetting a minor detail about a secondary or minor character is much different than forgetting the main character's strength. In every instance in the manga where a character was underestimated they proved the other person wrong immediately after. King Kai told Goku not to anger Beerus but as soon as he reached SSJ3 he offered to fight in only SSJ2 so he obviously has no problem challenging or disagreeing with Beerus.

The panels before 18 smashes them into the ground shows them going fist for fist, and she didn't think he was a regular human, otherwise she wouldn't have shot a ki blast at them. and SSJ kids being on par with 18 wouldn't make sense since they were on par with Teen Gohan.

She fired a ki blast after fighting with them so she knew by then they were stronger than the average human. She couldn't have been going all out from the beginning because if that was the real Mighty Mask or any other human then they would've been dead. By "Teen Gohan" do you mean Gohan during the Cell Games or adult Gohan who lost power? You have the base and SSJ kids weaker than both Gohans in those forms.

If were gonna go the whole "that statement wasn't proven wrong" route, I'll use the Boo arc where Vegeta said he would win the tournament in base form despite Piccolo entering. There would be no point of putting that line in if AT wanted us to believe Piccolo > Vegeta, same with Gohan who said he would win in base, why put that in if he wants us to believe C18 > Base Gohan?

On the way to the tournament the Saiyans including Goten and Trunks all agreed not to transform so they wouldn't be recognized. They didn't even mention Piccolo or #18 maybe because Toriyama didn't plan for the tournament to last long enough for them to fight each other. If you want to use that line as evidence then you would have also say that Goten and Trunks > Piccolo since they also agreed without even questioning if they could challenge Piccolo without SSJ. Remember they only found out about the Junior Division once they reached the tournament so everyone assumed they would be competing with the adults. In my opinion a direct comparison between base Goku and Frieza >>> an implication without any comparison being made and at best is only half true unless you also consider base Goten and Trunks being stronger than Piccolo.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

That would be helpful if it's a different comment than the one Darkron2151 was referring to.

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t208 ... ake-sense/ -- scroll down to his comment. He has Buuhan as his avi.

Still Toriyama forgetting a minor detail about a secondary or minor character is much different than forgetting the main character's strength. In every instance in the manga where a character was underestimated they proved the other person wrong immediately after. King Kai told Goku not to anger Beerus but as soon as he reached SSJ3 he offered to fight in only SSJ2 so he obviously has no problem challenging or disagreeing with Beerus.

True, but I doubt when writing AT was thinking about their strenghts like that. I couldn't imagine him remembering how strong base Goku is in the Boo arc.

She fired a ki blast after fighting with them so she knew by then they were stronger than the average human. She couldn't have been going all out from the beginning because if that was the real Mighty Mask or any other human then they would've been dead. By "Teen Gohan" do you mean Gohan during the Cell Games or adult Gohan who lost power? You have the base and SSJ kids weaker than both Gohans in those forms.

No teen Boo arc Gohan. And I mean they're in the same general area of strenght since Goten made Gohan sweat during training and pushed him into the air. It's kinda like the Cell/Goku gap. 80%.

On the way to the tournament the Saiyans including Goten and Trunks all agreed not to transform so they wouldn't be recognized. They didn't even mention Piccolo or #18 maybe because Toriyama didn't plan for the tournament to last long enough for them to fight each other. If you want to use that line as evidence then you would have also say that Goten and Trunks > Piccolo since they also agreed without even questioning if they could challenge Piccolo without SSJ. Remember they only found out about the Junior Division once they reached the tournament so everyone assumed they would be competing with the adults. In my opinion a direct comparison between base Goku and Freeza >>> an implication without any comparison being made and at best is only half true unless you also consider base Goten and Trunks being stronger than Piccolo.

But there's a difference with Goten and Trunks. They didn't claim they were going to win. Vegeta and Gohan thought they could win w/o transforming, and no one countered them like "How are you gonna get past Piccolo or 18"
there's also Dabra saying the base saiyans hard marvelous energy while he lumped Piccolo with Kuririn as trash.

[Skar]

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t208 ... ake-sense/ -- scroll down to his comment. He has Buuhan as his avi.

Was that really it? If you using it as a rule for your PL list I thought you would at least have the actual quote. That was just someone's opinion about a fan theory. For all we know he could've been just throwing out possible ideas for the sake of discussion. I'll double check the translation section of Kanzenshuu to see if Toriyama ever mentioned anything about the gap between base and SSJ. I remember reading every interview and never reading that.

True, but I doubt when writing AT was thinking about their strenghts like that. I couldn't imagine him remembering how strong base Goku is in the Boo arc.

We have no idea what he remembered from the Buu saga. There were some things I didn't like about Battle of Gods but ifToriyama says it's canon and takes place in the same universe as the manga then I can't argue with him. I can understand if you don't want to count Battle of Gods in your own personal canon for the purpose of a fanfiction or something but we have to take it in consideration when discussing the manga.

But there's a difference with Goten and Trunks. They didn't claim they were going to win. Vegeta and Gohan thought they could win w/o transforming, and no one countered them like "How are you gonna get past Piccolo or 18"
there's also Dabra saying the base saiyans hard marvelous energy while he lumped Piccolo with Kuririn as trash.

That was exactly the point. No one brought up Piccolo or #18 when they said they would remain in base. In almost every other strength comparison in the manga both fighters were mentioned by name. Gohan lost power since the Cell Games. For him to be stronger than Piccolo he would've had to get so powerful in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber that he could afford to lose energy for seven years and still be stronger than him. During the Cell Games it showed Piccolo still standing against a Cell Jr while a weakened SSJ Goku was on the ground. Goku's lowest SSJ at the time should still be higher than his own base so Piccolo > weakened Cell Games SSJ Goku > base Goku.

It's funny that you mention the scene with Dabura. They were all suppressed so the only thing Dabura could be doing is estimating what their full power was. I don't understand how you would use this as evidence but ignore the scene with Beerus unless you think Dabura is more skilled at sensing energy than him. Dabura was proven wrong because he underestimated them while at least nothing implied Beerus was underestimating Goku.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

We have no idea what he remembered from the Buu saga. There were some things I didn't like about Battle of Gods but ifToriyama says it's canon and takes place in the same universe as the manga then I can't argue with him. I can understand if you don't want to count Battle of Gods in your own personal canon for the purpose of a fanfiction or something but we have to take it in consideration when discussing the manga.

The thing is, I still have yet to see this statement from Akira Toriyama saying it's canon. From what I've heard Toei said it's part of the official DB history. People seem to claim that since AT had involvement it's automatically canon.

That was exactly the point. No one brought up Piccolo or #18 when they said they would remain in base. In almost every other strength comparison in the manga both fighters were mentioned by name. Gohan lost power since the Cell Games. For him to be stronger than Piccolo he would've had to get so powerful in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber that he could afford to lose energy for seven years and still be stronger than him. During the Cell Games it showed Piccolo still standing against a Cell Jr while a weakened SSJ Goku was on the ground. Goku's lowest SSJ at the time should still be higher than his own base so Piccolo > weakened Cell Games SSJ Goku > base Goku.

But what I'm saying is, no one contradicted Vegeta. If I asked you to prove right now Vegeta would've lost against Piccolo you couldn't. And why can't Goku's weakest SSJ fall below his base?

It's funny that you mention the scene with Dabura. They were all suppressed so the only thing Dabura could be doing is estimating what their full power was. I don't understand how you would use this as evidence but ignore the scene with Beerus unless you think Dabura is more skilled at sensing energy than him. Dabura was proven wrong because he underestimated them while at least nothing implied Beerus was underestimating Goku.

So I can't just say Goku against was suppressed against Beerus too? Goku was hiding moments before, why would he hide at full power? And he did no visible power up, or had no aura. Future Trunks also shows us that base saiyans are usually suppressed if not fighting. I pick Dabra over Beerus since Dabra was actually from the original manga when AT actually remembered more things.

[Darkron2151]

The thing is, I still have yet to see this statement from Akira Toriyama saying it's canon. From what I've heard Toei said it's part of the official DB history. People seem to claim that since AT had involvement it's automatically canon.

He said it was a direct continuation from the Manga series and was fully involved in the plot-production of the movie. He even said in an interview that he had to reread the manga for this occasion. I don't like the word "canon" either, but that's way more "canon" than anyone else' fan-theories.

• Interviewer: OK then, how did you come up with Super Saiyan God?
  Akira Toriyama: Whis also mentions Super Saiyan God, and I had to reread all of the comics again, then I was able to come up with the idea. I made Super Saiyan God look simple because that’s the Saiyan God.

But what I'm saying is, no one contradicted Vegeta. If I asked you to prove right now Vegeta would've lost against Piccolo you couldn't.

If anyone, Vegeta would contradict himself. Think about it. He knows that Goku has 24 hours left on this planet and also Goku's the only reason Vegeta even entered this tournament. Do you think Vegeta would risk his, seemingly last, battle with Goku to lose in Base in a fight with Piccolo? That's not Vegeta's character. Knowing him, if he was paired up with Piccolo, he would've turned SSJ without a care in the world, plowed through Piccolo, and continue the tournament for the chance to fight with Goku. He probably made that promise to not turn SSJ just to shut everyone up. Plus, Goku would probably do the same thing, and he didn't even know about the "No SSJ" rule.

So I can't just say Goku against was suppressed against Beerus too? Goku was hiding moments before, why would he hide at full power? And he did no visible power up, or had no aura. Future Trunks also shows us that base saiyans are usually suppressed if not fighting. I pick Dabra over Beerus since Dabra was actually from the original manga when AT actually remembered more things.

You could say that, but you'd be forgetting that Goku was just training prior to Beerus' arrival and the fact that he, knowing Goku, was already hyped to fight with Beerus anyways. Plus after SSJ was revealed in the series, we never see anyone power up in "Base" again, so that's not really a good argument. When the Z-Fighters were reducing their power levels to be undetected (Which means it would be 0 in order to be undetected), Dabura still picked out the 3 characters that coincidentally can increase their power 50+ Fold. And Vegeta never was shown to power up from that scene onward. By your logic, since Vegeta was shown not to have powered up from 0, he could STILL beat Pui Pui when his battle power was THAT low. Same thing with Goku and Yakon before he turned SSJ. Heck, Goku and co. probably did what he did in the Ginyu Saga and amp up his ki in a split-second in order to dodge the Ginyus so fast, they couldn't see him. By your logic, Goku did that all with a power of 5,000 because there was no shown increase, but there is one stated.

[Skar]

The thing is, I still have yet to see this statement from Akira Toriyama saying it's canon. From what I've heard Toei said it's part of the official DB history. People seem to claim that since AT had involvement it's automatically canon.

.
Toriyama retconned Beerus as the one who sealed Old Kai in the Z Sword and the one who destroyed King Kai's original planet. He couldn't do that if he didn't include Battle of Gods as canon and taking place in the same timeline as the manga.

But what I'm saying is, no one contradicted Vegeta. If I asked you to prove right now Vegeta would've lost against Piccolo you couldn't. And why can't Goku's weakest SSJ fall below his base?

The thing is Piccolo wasn't even brought up. You can't use that evidence to claim only base Vegeta was stronger than Piccolo but not Gohan, Trunks, and Goten even though they all agreed not to use SSJ.
We've seen that when a SSJ loses too much energy they snap out of the form and revert back to base. Goku was still able to maintain SSJ even though he was weakened so that would mean he's still stronger than his base at the time. To transform at all they would have to power-up all the way in base.

So I can't just say Goku against was suppressed against Beerus too? Goku was hiding moments before, why would he hide at full power? And he did no visible power up, or had no aura. Future Trunks also shows us that base saiyans are usually suppressed if not fighting. I pick Dabra over Beerus since Dabra was actually from the original manga when AT actually remembered more things.

I agree that Goku may have been suppressed when he met Beerus but I think you're missing the point. Dabura estimated the Saiyans power when they were suppressed and it was shown later on that he underestimated them. Beerus estimated Goku's base power and, unlike Dabura, he was never shown to have underestimated him. All Goku would have to say is "well in the past I needed SSJ to defeat Frieza but I've trained a lot so now I can defeat him without it" or "I'm only suppressed right now but if I were to power-up I could defeat Frieza without SSJ". That's more respectful than what he says later on when he's challenging Beerus and offering to use only SSJ2 instead of SSJ3. In that case he's implying Beerus is too weak for his SSJ3 while in the other case he would just be correcting someone who made an honest mistake because he didn't know how much Goku trained since defeating Frieza.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He said it was a direct continuation from the Manga series and was fully involved in the plot-production of the movie. He even said in an interview that he had to reread the manga for this occasion. I don't like the word "canon" either, but that's way more "canon" than anyone else' fan-theories.

• Interviewer: OK then, how did you come up with Super Saiyan God?
  Akira Toriyama: Whis also mentions Super Saiyan God, and I had to reread all of the comics again, then I was able to come up with the idea. I made Super Saiyan God look simple because that’s the Saiyan God.

I understand he read through prior to writing. I'm still looking from the quote from Toriyama saying that the movie is a continuation from the manga. From what I've heard, only Toei says that.

If anyone, Vegeta would contradict himself. Think about it. He knows that Goku has 24 hours left on this planet and also Goku's the only reason Vegeta even entered this tournament. Do you think Vegeta would risk his, seemingly last, battle with Goku to lose in Base in a fight with Piccolo? That's not Vegeta's character. Knowing him, if he was paired up with Piccolo, he would've turned SSJ without a care in the world, plowed through Piccolo, and continue the tournament for the chance to fight with Goku. He probably made that promise to not turn SSJ just to shut everyone up. Plus, Goku would probably do the same thing, and he didn't even know about the "No SSJ" rule.

All we can do is speculate. If Piccolo got in the ring with Vegeta, would Vegeta have transformed? Who knows? But as of right now Vegeta's statement of winning without SSJ still stands. Maybe he said it to shut everyone up, maybe he was serious, we don't know for sure.

You could say that, but you'd be forgetting that Goku was just training prior to Beerus' arrival and the fact that he, knowing Goku, was already hyped to fight with Beerus anyways.

Goku wasn't really 'training'. He was jogging around the planet with bubbles, then he was with Kaio-sama being told about Beerus, then he was hiding. If Goku didn't want Beerus to know he was there, why be at full power?

Plus after SSJ was revealed in the series, we never see anyone power up in "Base" again, so that's not really a good argument. When the Z-Fighters were reducing their power levels to be undetected (Which means it would be 0 in order to be undetected), Dabura still picked out the 3 characters that coincidentally can increase their power 50+ Fold. And Vegeta never was shown to power up from that scene onward. By your logic, since Vegeta was shown not to have powered up from 0, he could STILL beat Pui Pui when his battle power was THAT low. Same thing with Goku and Yakon before he turned SSJ. Heck, Goku and co. probably did what he did in the Ginyu Saga and amp up his ki in a split-second in order to dodge the Ginyus so fast, they couldn't see him. By your logic, Goku did that all with a power of 5,000 because there was no shown increase, but there is one stated.

But the thing is, Vegeta one-shotting Pui Pui and Goku fighting Yakon suggest they're using their full power, and as you said, Goku was stated to be using bursts against the Ginyus. Nothing at all suggests or states Goku was at full power against Beerus, it seems a lot more likely Goku was suppressed given the fact he was trying to remain hidden moments before. And how would Dabra know about super saiyan? He hasn't seen it before.

[Skar]

@SSJ2FutureGohan
I was wondering if you saw my post? I tried addressing what you brought up in your last comment and this one.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Toriyama retconned Beerus as the one who sealed Old Kai in the Z Sword and the one who destroyed King Kai's original planet. He couldn't do that if he didn't include Battle of Gods as canon and taking place in the same timeline as the manga.

Didn't Elder Kaioshin say that the person who sealed him in the sword was weaker than Boo tho? Or something along those lines?

The thing is Piccolo wasn't even brought up. You can't use that evidence to claim only base Vegeta was stronger than Piccolo but not Gohan, Trunks, and Goten even though they all agreed not to use SSJ.

Vegeta's claiming he's stronger than Gohan, Trunks, Goten, and Piccolo. That's all I'm saying. His statement was never contradicted so I don't see why to throw it out.

I agree that Goku may have been suppressed when he met Beerus but I think you're missing the point. Dabura estimated the Saiyans power when they were suppressed and it was shown later on that he underestimated them. Beerus estimated Goku's base power and, unlike Dabura, he was never shown to have underestimated him. All Goku would have to say is "well in the past I needed SSJ to defeat Freeza but I've trained a lot so now I can defeat him without it" or "I'm only suppressed right now but if I were to power-up I could defeat Freeza without SSJ". That's more respectful than what he says later on when he's challenging Beerus and offering to use only SSJ2 instead of SSJ3. In that case he's implying Beerus is too weak for his SSJ3 while in the other case he would just be correcting someone who made an honest mistake because he didn't know how much Goku trained since defeating Freeza.

But we don't know if Beerus can sense potential or hidden energy or whatever you wanna call it, he could've made his estimate on what Goku was just exerting. Heck, Goku could've been suppressed to 10,000 and Beerus could've meant 1st form Freeza for all we know.
I agree the Dabra argument may not work, thinking about it, it seems more like a plot device to me to get the saiyans and kaioshin together, and Piccolo would serve no purpose to the story and would be dead weight to AT.

[Skar]

Didn't Elder Kaioshin say that the person who sealed him in the sword was weaker than Boo tho? Or something along those lines?

From the Herms strength checker:
Elder Kaioshin: “That’s ri~~~ight. Lo~~~ong, lo~~~ong ago, there was this ridiculously strong and ba~~~ad dude. Well, he wasn’t as bad as this Majin Boo guy now, but still~~~. He did it, he se~~~ealed me away inside that sword. Me here. He was freaked out by how fearsome I am. Yep, sure wa~~~as.”
He says the guy was ridiculously strong and bad but not as bad as Buu. That could mean he's weaker than Buu but since he already mentioned he was strong before saying he was bad he might've only meant "not as evil" as Buu. It was Toriyama who retconned Beerus as the one who sealed Old Kai and it doesn't seem to contradict anything in the manga going by that interpretation.

Vegeta's claiming he's stronger than Gohan, Trunks, Goten, and Piccolo. That's all I'm saying. His statement was never contradicted so I don't see why to throw it out.

You can't really use part of the scene as evidence. If you believe Vegeta was serious about winning in base then that would have to apply to Gohan and the kids. Either all of them were confident they could defeat Piccolo and #18 in base since they all had no problem agreeing or that wasn't the point of that scene since no even brought up Piccolo or #18's name.

But we don't know if Beerus can sense potential or hidden energy or whatever you wanna call it, he could've made his estimate on what Goku was just exerting. Heck, Goku could've been suppressed to 10,000 and Beerus could've meant 1st form Freeza for all we know.

There's no way to know how much Goku was suppressed in base or if he was suppressed at all. He could've been suppressed down to 5 like Future Trunks was when he confronted Frieza or 5000 when he was suppressed against the Ginyu Force. The only way to know if Beerus was wrong is if Goku corrected him. There would be no point in including this line AND have Goku not say anything if it was intended to be wrong. This line wasn't really relevant to the plot since Beerus just wanted to fight Goku so all he had to do was ask Goku if he has gotten stronger than when he defeated Frieza. There wasn't a reason to bring up his base at all unless the author just wanted to throw that piece of information in there.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

From the Herms strength checker:
Elder Kaioshin: “That’s ri~~~ight. Lo~~~ong, lo~~~ong ago, there was this ridiculously strong and ba~~~ad dude. Well, he wasn’t as bad as this Majin Boo guy now, but still~~~. He did it, he se~~~ealed me away inside that sword. Me here. He was freaked out by how fearsome I am. Yep, sure wa~~~as.”
He says the guy was ridiculously strong and bad but not as bad as Buu. That could mean he's weaker than Buu but since he already mentioned he was strong before saying he was bad he might've only meant "not as evil" as Buu. It was Toriyama who retconned Beerus as the one who sealed Old Kai and it doesn't seem to contradict anything in the manga going by that interpretation.

Upon reading about this at DB Wikia, apparently it says he sealed Old Kaioshin in the zeta sword because they got into an argument over some trifling thing and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction, Beerus, sealed Old Kai away inside the Z Sword. That doesn't seem to match up with what Old Kaioshin said. Also, if Beerus is a god of destruction and has godly ki, why would he be scared of Old Kaio's power? Not even Ultimate Gohan was close to Beerus and Gohan has the most potential seen in the show. Also, even if that happened in the manga, that doesn't necessarily mean this movie had to happen also. Besides this movie messes up the End of Z as well.

You can't really use part of the scene as evidence. If you believe Vegeta was serious about winning in base then that would have to apply to Gohan and the kids. Either all of them were confident they could defeat Piccolo and #18 in base since they all had no problem agreeing or that wasn't the point of that scene since no even brought up Piccolo or #18's name.

You're missing the point. Goten and Trunks never said "we'll still win". Gohan thought he would win since he had such a big lead over Goku and Vegeta at the Cell Games, and Vegeta knew Gohan was slacking off, so he thought he was stronger. Nothing says Base Goten/Trunks > Piccolo, because they didn't say they'd stay in base AND win.

There's no way to know how much Goku was suppressed in base or if he was suppressed at all. He could've been suppressed down to 5 like Future Trunks was when he confronted Freeza or 5000 when he was suppressed against the Ginyu Force. The only way to know if Beerus was wrong is if Goku corrected him. There would be no point in including this line AND have Goku not say anything if it was intended to be wrong. This line wasn't really relevant to the plot since Beerus just wanted to fight Goku so all he had to do was ask Goku if he has gotten stronger than when he defeated Freeza. There wasn't a reason to bring up his base at all unless the author just wanted to throw that piece of information in there.

Why would he throw that piece of info in there if it conflicts with the manga? 18 and the kids?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Another reason Freeza > Base Goku doesn't work in BoG is that Goku is implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan, who was stronger than SSJ 3 Gotenks who was (going by official multipliers) 8x stronger than SSJ 3 Goku. So that would at the very least, mean Goku in BoG is 10x stronger his Boo arc self (at least). So if Goku is still weaker than Freeza even in BoG, that would mean base Goku in the Boo arc would be ~10,000,000, which is ridiculous.

[Darkron2151]

Why would he throw that piece of info in there if it conflicts with the manga? 18 and the kids?

It's not conflicting with anything. The Daiz said that the kids were on par with 18 (who was suppressed), but looking back at the fight, they couldn't touch her. They traded blows for a panel or two, big whoop. She then moved faster than they could follow and smack them to the ground as well. Not really seeing the "on par" going on there. Plus the Daiz also says Gohan's power didn't change over the 7 year gap, but by your power levels, it shrunk. So now we can just choose what we believe and not believe about the Daiz now? Same thing with the SEG?

I understand he read through prior to writing. I'm still looking from the quote from Toriyama saying that the movie is a continuation from the manga. From what I've heard, only Toei says that.

So? There's an official source stating that it's a continuation of the manga, while he doesn't state to refute it one bit, unlike ALL the other movies. Also, you can infer based on that information even if Toriyama doesn't directly say it. By your logic, that means all the things from the Daiz and the other guidebooks can be ignored without question because Toriyama didn't specifically state it.

All we can do is speculate. If Piccolo got in the ring with Vegeta, would Vegeta have transformed? Who knows? But as of right now Vegeta's statement of winning without SSJ still stands. Maybe he said it to shut everyone up, maybe he was serious, we don't know for sure.

Says who? You just said we could just all speculate and it could be either scenario. How is some "statement", which you just said could be interpreted either way, still stand?

Goku wasn't really 'training'. He was jogging around the planet with bubbles, then he was with Kaio-sama being told about Beerus, then he was hiding. If Goku didn't want Beerus to know he was there, why be at full power?

Then ask yourself, if Goku suppressed his power (most likely to 0) in order to be undetected, how did Beerus find him so easily? Dabura did the same thing against the suppressed Z-Warriors, yet no one has a problem with that. And he also knows full well how strong Freeza is in order to compare Goku to Freeza. So it's most likely the case that Beerus can not only sense energy, but also very well, as he can detect surrounding lifeforms that are hiding their ki.

But the thing is, Vegeta one-shotting Pui Pui and Goku fighting Yakon suggest they're using their full power, and as you said, Goku was stated to be using bursts against the Ginyus. Nothing at all suggests or states Goku was at full power against Beerus, it seems a lot more likely Goku was suppressed given the fact he was trying to remain hidden moments before. And how would Dabra know about super saiyan? He hasn't seen it before.

You're missing the point. My point is that you think a power increase in Base has to be noted in order for the Saiyans to be at full power, yet there's countless examples where the suppress themselves and then immediately do perform feats that would be impossible to do if they were still suppressed at that level (Vagata vs. Pui Pui, Goku vs Yakon, Goku vs. Ginyus, etc.). But unlike the latter, the battles against Babidi's minions weren't stated to have power ups in base. So by your logic, because it wasn't stated that Vegeta and Goku were at Full power or increased to a level beyond 0, Vegeta and Goku (until Goku turned SSJ) were at 0 the entire time, which you just said that they were implied not to be.

And as you said, Goku was hiding. WAS is the key term here. He then is discovered and has no need to be suppressed anymore.

And as for Dabura and Super Saiyan, he didn't know. But then how was he able to decipher that the 3 Saiyans (who coincidentally could get 50+ times stronger) were stronger than Piccolo or Krillin when they all were hiding their ki (0)?

Another reason Freeza > Base Goku doesn't work in BoG is that Goku is implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan, who was stronger than SSJ 3 Gotenks who was (going by official multipliers) 8x stronger than SSJ 3 Goku. So that would at the very least, mean Goku in BoG is 10x stronger his Boo arc self (at least). So if Goku is still weaker than Freeza even in BoG, that would mean base Goku in the Boo arc would be ~10,000,000, which is ridiculous.

Where is this even implied?

And even then (shown by the case I showed about the SEG, Daiz, etc. above), that's only IF you think the SEG multipliers are correct.

Actually, this might seem interesting. I'll attempt to make a PL list that makes Goku go from 3 million on Namek to 10 million by Buu. Not making any promises, but we'll see.

[Skar]

Upon reading about this at DB Wikia, apparently it says he sealed Old Kaioshin in the zeta sword because they got into an argument over some trifling thing and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction, Beerus, sealed Old Kai away inside the Z Sword. That doesn't seem to match up with what Old Kaioshin said. Also, if Beerus is a god of destruction and has godly ki, why would he be scared of Old Kaio's power? Not even Ultimate Gohan was close to Beerus and Gohan has the most potential seen in the show. Also, even if that happened in the manga, that doesn't necessarily mean this movie had to happen also. Besides this movie messes up the End of Z as well.

It wouldn't make much sense to retcon the character, Beerus, into the manga but not the movie he come from. If Toriyama decided the movie took place in the manga then we can't really argue with him.

You're missing the point. Goten and Trunks never said "we'll still win". Gohan thought he would win since he had such a big lead over Goku and Vegeta at the Cell Games, and Vegeta knew Gohan was slacking off, so he thought he was stronger. Nothing says Base Goten/Trunks > Piccolo, because they didn't say they'd stay in base AND win.

I guess I am missing the point that Vegeta is confident he'll win without knowing how strong Goku was and not questioning if Piccolo improved at all. Vegeta and Gohan must've been so confident that they didn't even bother telling Goku about their agreement not to use SSJ. You must also feel base Gohan and Vegeta were as strong as the Cell Jrs since Piccolo was still standing against one during the Cell Games. You didn't argue with Piccolo > weakened SSJ Goku > base Goku so I guess you agreed with that and assume base Vegeta was stronger than a weakened FPSSJ Goku as well.

Why would he throw that piece of info in there if it conflicts with the manga? 18 and the kids?

We already discussed that already but okay. She was told to hold back and since she thought Mighty Mask was just an average human she couldn't have been using full strength from the beginning. That explanation fits just fine with the base Saiyans being weaker than Frieza. The only way that explanation wouldn't work is if you choose to assume she was going all out from the beginning against a person she thought was an average human.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It wouldn't make much sense to retcon the character, Beerus, into the manga but not the movie he come from. If Toriyama decided the movie took place in the manga then we can't really argue with him.

Even if it does take place in the manga, read my above post.

I guess I am missing the point that Vegeta is confident he'll win without knowing how strong Goku was and not questioning if Piccolo improved at all. Vegeta and Gohan must've been so confident that they didn't even bother telling Goku about their agreement not to use SSJ. You must also feel base Gohan and Vegeta were as strong as the Cell Jrs since Piccolo was still standing against one during the Cell Games. You didn't argue with Piccolo > weakened SSJ Goku > base Goku so I guess you agreed with that and assume base Vegeta was stronger than a weakened FPSSJ Goku as well.

Well for one, they could've easily told Goku off screen, since Gohan was stressing to everyone else not to use SSJ to keep attention away, and there would be no point in making a whole panel to show that. There's also the fact Goku wouldn't use SSJ on Gohan or Vegeta if they themselves didn't use it. Vegeta was also confident he would've been able to take on Goku and later realizes he won't catch up when watching Goku's fight w/ Yakon. The Cell Jr. argument isn't the greatest argument, they were all toying, if they were all going full force, the humans would've been dead. We also don't know to what extent each of them were toying. One could've used 1% on Krillin while one could've used 50% on Piccolo. Also, we don't know how low tired MSSJ Goku was. He could've only been 5-10% stronger than Base Goku, just enough that he didn't revert to base. And Vegeta should be more than 5-10% stronger than base Cell Games Goku, since he was confident he could take him on. It's also likely Piccolo didn't improve much over the 7 years, and that he's maxed out, otherwise he would've used the rosat twice.

We already discussed that already but okay. She was told to hold back and since she thought Mighty Mask was just an average human she couldn't have been using full strength from the beginning. That explanation fits just fine with the base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza. The only way that explanation wouldn't work is if you choose to assume she was going all out from the beginning against a person she thought was an average human.

Here's my question: If Android 18 was really multi-folds stronger than the kids, why didn't she just do this to them?

Spoiler:

Why just go up in the air and pretty much dance with Goten and Trunks? For the fun of it?