Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Noah]

I just noticed something. Old news, but:

Super, Episode 21, Minute: 3
Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”
Gohan: “You see... Apparently, once he falls asleep, he won't wake up for some time…Even if you shake, hit, or tickle him, nothing works...”

This conversation pretty much confirms that Mr. Buu would wipe the floor with Freeza's 1st form, if nothing else.

Pretty much. It gets reinforced in episode 30 when Goku calls Boo's power amazing when angered.

So Mr. Boo that is half strong as he used to be before split in two in Boo Arc, would still be stronger than First Form Freeza (RoF) that effortelessly defeated "Ultimate" Super Saiyan Gohan?

[ZombieVito]

I just noticed something. Old news, but:

Super, Episode 21, Minute: 3
Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”
Gohan: “You see... Apparently, once he falls asleep, he won't wake up for some time…Even if you shake, hit, or tickle him, nothing works...”

This conversation pretty much confirms that Mr. Buu would wipe the floor with Freeza's 1st form, if nothing else.

Pretty much. It gets reinforced in episode 30 when Goku calls Boo's power amazing when angered.

So Mr. Boo that is half strong as he used to be before split in two in Boo Arc, would still be stronger than First Form Freeza (RoF) that effortelessly defeated "Ultimate" Super Saiyan Gohan?

A lot of assumptions here.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah. For starters, literally the only time we've seen this Buu fight is when he put up a half-decent battle against SS3-tier Pure Buu. Secondly, Gohan still isn't "Ultimate", and I have no idea why people keep trying to insist that he is. Third, Buu could be half as powerful as the pre-split fatty and still be way stronger than 1st form Freeza. 1st form Freeza doesn't need to be any stronger than, say, SS Goku from the Buu arc. All he did was pierce a weakened SS Gohan with a bunch of Death Beams and beat up Piccolo.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't think it has anything to do with being "faster than time", if that makes sense. Goku knows how Hit moves after his tokitobashi, so he can react accordingly. That's possible because he watched how he attacked Vegeta. His reaction time while using kaioken is so insane that even if Hit stops time, Goku acted far ahead, seeming that he is moving during frozen time.

That really isn't what's shown though, Goku is actually shown to be frozen and then as Hit tries to attack him Goku starts moving again, and blocks Hit then punches him in the gut. It's nothing to do with reactions as Goku was shown in a defenceless position when he is frozen but like I said he starts moving, and he actually moves faster than Hit during Hits Tokitobashi. Hits new time skip is impossible to react to anyway, he hit Goku numerous times in 0.5 seconds so there was no way Goku could react to that, he could block one of Hits attacks, maybe, but the other lot would hit him.

I didn't say Goku was moving during frozen time, I said he moved before the activation of Tokitobashi.

Well before Goku used SSJB Kaiokenx10, Hit said his time extended up to 0.5 seconds and he proceeded to land a barrage of attacks on a Goku that was frozen in place which put him on his knees. This was when the background turned to crystal.

After Goku uses Kaiokenx10 there's a brief moment where Hit uses the power again and the background turns to crystal again but this time Goku isnt frozen and he's able to move even.

So he can still move even when Hit has apparently stopped time for everyone else. Though I don't really know why but he seems more like what Hit was doing is not stopping time but greatly slowing down time for everyone else but now Goku is fast enough for it to not stop him entirely.

I think he only seems to be moving during frozen time, because Hit's (and ours) perception is delayed. Goku predicted what Hit would do, blocked and punched all within the split-second before time stopping. In a nutshell, he countered Tokitobashi before its activation.

[Noah]

So Mr. Boo that is half strong as he used to be before split in two in Boo Arc, would still be stronger than First Form Freeza (RoF) that effortelessly defeated "Ultimate" Super Saiyan Gohan?

A lot of assumptions here.

Probably in Gohan part, because nobody knows if his Super Saiyan form still has some of his "Mystic" power-up, but about Mr. Boo, isn't clear that:

Fat Boo > Mr. Boo?

Fat Boo split in two = Grey Boo and Mr. Boo

You can argue that both had the same power or was something like 60% or 40%, anyway... Mr. Boo is not strong was he was in his first appearance.

[RandomGuy96]

So Mr. Boo that is half strong as he used to be before split in two in Boo Arc, would still be stronger than First Form Freeza (RoF) that effortelessly defeated "Ultimate" Super Saiyan Gohan?

A lot of assumptions here.

Probably in Gohan part, because nobody knows if his Super Saiyan form still has some of his "Mystic" power-up, but about Mr. Boo, isn't clear that:

Fat Boo > Mr. Boo?

Fat Boo split in two = Grey Boo and Mr. Boo

You can argue that both had the same power or was something like 60% or 40%, anyway... Mr. Boo is not strong was he was in his first appearance.

Why do you assume that Good Boo is the same as Mr. Boo? Grey Boo wasn't the same as Pure Boo, so this split is obviously different than that one.

[Sora Saiyan]

I don't think it has anything to do with being "faster than time", if that makes sense. Goku knows how Hit moves after his tokitobashi, so he can react accordingly. That's possible because he watched how he attacked Vegeta. His reaction time while using kaioken is so insane that even if Hit stops time, Goku acted far ahead, seeming that he is moving during frozen time.

That really isn't what's shown though, Goku is actually shown to be frozen and then as Hit tries to attack him Goku starts moving again, and blocks Hit then punches him in the gut. It's nothing to do with reactions as Goku was shown in a defenceless position when he is frozen but like I said he starts moving, and he actually moves faster than Hit during Hits Tokitobashi. Hits new time skip is impossible to react to anyway, he hit Goku numerous times in 0.5 seconds so there was no way Goku could react to that, he could block one of Hits attacks, maybe, but the other lot would hit him.

I didn't say Goku was moving during frozen time, I said he moved before the activation of Tokitobashi.

Yes I know. I said that not what happened. Goku is actually shown to be moving during frozen time. If you watch the scene again you will see Hit activate Tokitobashi and Goku is totally frozen in place, but as Hit starts moving over to Goku and attempts to throw a punch Goku somehow starts moving again even though he was clearly shown as frozen before. There's clearly no reaction on Gokus part as it would be impossible to react once he was frozen, we in fact see Goku frozen stance when Hit activates Tokitobashi and it's definitely not a position where he was trying to block Hits attacks. He somehow resisted time stop, be it Goku being faster than time, or he's that strong he has hax resistance, similar to Candy ball Vegetto. I said before anyway, no matter how fast Goku can react it would actually be impossible to stop Hits 0.5 second time stop as he hits an insane amount of times, just based on reactions Goku would only be able to move into one position, then once Hit freezes time he would be stuck in that position and hit would punch him elsewhere like a hundred times.

[Khin]

I just noticed something. Old news, but:

Super, Episode 21, Minute: 3
Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”
Gohan: “You see... Apparently, once he falls asleep, he won't wake up for some time…Even if you shake, hit, or tickle him, nothing works...”

This conversation pretty much confirms that Mr. Buu would wipe the floor with Freeza's 1st form, if nothing else.

That is indeed a good implication.I'm surprised that i never noticed this.At best,I'd put First Form Freeza more or less on par with Mr.Buu.

Though Goku can't track Freeza's ki when he was trying to use IT.While SSj Gohan was sensed,so either...

1. Freeza was suppressing his Ki.
2. Gohan got stronger than Freeza [1st Form] at that time.

[Hugo Boss]

I didn't say Goku was moving during frozen time, I said he moved before the activation of Tokitobashi.

Yes I know. I said that not what happened.

Goku actually explains what he did, he can't move in frozen time, so he antecipated all Hit's movements. Thus, what Goku does in Hit's perspective is an illusion. Hit's senses were not as fast as Goku's movements.

Spoiler:

Context: Hit attempts to use his time-skip.

　20:28 | Goku: "It's no use. I've already moved far beyond your time-skip."

Significance: Goku's 10x SSB Kaiō-ken allows him to be "far ahead" (はるか先) of Hit's 0.5 second timeskip.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That doesn't actually confirm Mr. Boo>Freeza. All it really says is he's the only one who could potentially deal with Freeza. Even Tagoma's Chi stood out more than Freeza's. He was suppressed.

[Khin]

Even Tagoma's Chi stood out more than Freeza's.

Good point.Tagoma's ki attracted Goten and Trunks to step in the battlefield,implying Freeza was suppressed.Not to mention,Goku can't track Freeza's ki when he's trying to IT to earth and need SSj Gohan for it.

[Sora Saiyan]

I didn't say Goku was moving during frozen time, I said he moved before the activation of Tokitobashi.

Yes I know. I said that not what happened.

Goku actually explains what he did, he can't move in frozen time, so he antecipated all Hit's movements. Thus, what Goku does in Hit's perspective is an illusion. Hit's senses were not as fast as Goku's movements.

Spoiler:

Context: Hit attempts to use his time-skip.

　20:28 | Goku: "It's no use. I've already moved far beyond your time-skip."

Significance: Goku's 10x SSB Kaiō-ken allows him to be "far ahead" (はるか先) of Hit's 0.5 second timeskip.

Gotta start off with saying Hits senses can't be slower than Gokus movements since Gokus movements were frozen once Hit activated time skip. Also, I dont think the quote meant that as Toei had shown us what happened once Hit activated Tokitobashi, it was given in black and white IMO, so Goku saying that doesn't mean he anticipated Hits movements (because it would be impossible to stop 100 attacks once he's been frozen because he would be stuck in the position he was frozen in, which we actually got to see), it just means he's somehow resisted hax ala candy Vegetto. I don't believe he's faster than time, but once he was shown as frozen there was no way he could move without hax resistance or the being faster than time thing.

The only thing I can take the quote to mean is that Goku is that stupidly powerful he can move beyond frozen time, but I don't like that view to be fair, but maybe it's the only one that fits with what was shown. Anyway, I'll leave it here, I've repeated my view three times now so it's bound to get tedious.

[Chiki]

Goku's counter to Hit's Tokitobashi makes no logical sense whatsoever. We know Hit can actually hit his opponent several times in the 0.1 seconds that time is frozen, as we saw vs Frost (we also saw him hit Goku dozens of times with 0.5 seconds, by simple division you can infer that he can hit multiple times in 0.1 seconds).

Goku predicts where Hit is going to hit him even before he hits him, once the Tokitobashi ends. But Hit can hit Goku before the Tokitobashi ends multiple times, so..?

10x Kaioken SSB Goku is also so much stronger than Hit that Tokitobashi has no effect on him. Can you imagine Krillin beheading Frieza or something with the Tokitobashi and Kienzan? No, the power gap is too great.

[RandomGuy96]

That doesn't actually confirm Mr. Boo>Freeza. All it really says is he's the only one who could potentially deal with Freeza. Even Tagoma's Chi stood out more than Freeza's. He was suppressed.

Not really. If he was suppressed the entire time, then none of them would have been able to tell how powerful he was and how outclassed they were, which they clearly did. They obviously got a read on his power at some point, and it's never stated that they underestimated him (a stock phrase when such a thing happens).

I just noticed something. Old news, but:

Super, Episode 21, Minute: 3
Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”
Gohan: “You see... Apparently, once he falls asleep, he won't wake up for some time…Even if you shake, hit, or tickle him, nothing works...”

This conversation pretty much confirms that Mr. Buu would wipe the floor with Freeza's 1st form, if nothing else.

That is indeed a good implication.I'm surprised that i never noticed this.At best,I'd put First Form Freeza more or less on par with Mr.Buu.

Though Goku can't track Freeza's ki when he was trying to use IT.While SSj Gohan was sensed,so either...

1. Freeza was suppressing his Ki.
2. Gohan got stronger than Freeza [1st Form] at that time.

He was probably suppressing his ki then, but not when he first arrived. Everyone commented on how huge it was and how screwed they were, even Gohan, which wouldn't be the case if it was suppressed below Tagoma's. Also, of course when Freeza's ship is in orbit, they all comment on his strength, not Tagoma's.

[Khin]

He was probably suppressing his ki then, but not when he first arrived. Everyone commented on how huge it was and how screwed they were, even Gohan, which wouldn't be the case if it was suppressed below Tagoma's. Also, of course when Freeza's ship is in orbit, they all comment on his strength, not Tagoma's.

Tagoma was also suppressed.His suppressed state was only above the Ginyu Force as stated by Sorbet,he powered up after that which attracts Goten and Trunks.After Freeza and his goons arrived,they saw Freeza was only in his First Form,which means they could possibly taking into account that Freeza can transform,which means they think they're ultimately screwed without Goku and Vegeta.

[Alee9977]

Does tokitobashi stop time or makes time pass slowly??
If it makes time go really really slow then Goku SSB KKx10 is so fast that even slowing time won't make him stop moving

[RandomGuy96]

He was probably suppressing his ki then, but not when he first arrived. Everyone commented on how huge it was and how screwed they were, even Gohan, which wouldn't be the case if it was suppressed below Tagoma's. Also, of course when Freeza's ship is in orbit, they all comment on his strength, not Tagoma's.

Tagoma was also suppressed.His suppressed state was only above the Ginyu Force as stated by Sorbet,he powered up after that which attracts Goten and Trunks.After Freeza and his goons arrived,they saw Freeza was only in his First Form,which means they could possibly taking into account that Freeza can transform,which means they think they're ultimately screwed without Goku and Vegeta.

That wouldn't really make any sense though. It's not like any of them have a formula for how strong Freeza's forms are in relation to each other, or that they can't attack him before he transforms. Plus, everyone's comments before they actually see Freeza suggest he was outputting a large amount of power in his 1st form. So either he wasn't suppressed, as he had no reason to be and this wasn't implied anywhere, or he was suppressed to an oddly specific level, but not enough for it to actually serve any kind of purpose. I don't see any reason to make the assumptions necessary to make the latter true.

The statement of "that's alright, we still have Boo" just seems really straightforward, as it comes right after multiple comments on how strong 1st form Freeza is. Let's look at it as a scene: multiple people say that Freeza's really strong. Krillin hopes Goku and Vegeta will handle him, but they're not there. Then he has a temporary hope spot by remembering they still have Buu, only to be told that, unfortunately, Buu isn't there either. Then it's established that Gohan can't handle Freeza- again, immediately after Krillin stated that Mr. Buu could. Then, later, we see 1st form Freeza beat up Gohan. If Freeza was suppressed while everyone was making those "what an enormous ki"/"we can't handle this"/"he's in a different dimension"/"if only Goku and Vegeta were here" statements, then the scenes don't really work in context (especially since the point of bringing Buu up and then dismissing him is pretty clearly "things are fine ---> crap ---> now they're not", rather than "things are fucked ---> things are fucked").

[Sora Saiyan]

Does tokitobashi stop time or makes time pass slowly??
If it makes time go really really slow then Goku SSB KKx10 is so fast that even slowing time won't make him stop moving

It's stated that he freezes time for everyone but himself for however long his time skip lasts.

[Helios518]

Does tokitobashi stop time or makes time pass slowly??
If it makes time go really really slow then Goku SSB KKx10 is so fast that even slowing time won't make him stop moving

It's a time stop.

[Hugo Boss]

The only thing I can take the quote to mean is that Goku is that stupidly powerful he can move beyond frozen time, but I don't like that view to be fair, but maybe it's the only one that fits with what was shown. Anyway, I'll leave it here, I've repeated my view three times now so it's bound to get tedious.

Fine, but nowhere in the scene Goku suggests he can move while time is frozen. It was Hitto (and us) who didn't realize what Goku did until he points out. All his movements which were shown during Tokitobashi were performed before we see it. Hit stopped time the moment Goku punched him, but for us it seemed like Goku was still a few meters ahead. He seems to be moving, but he is not, he already moved. When time resumes, Goku is in the same place where he started. In a nutshell, Hit stops time for everyone but himself, but that doesn't mean he can stop the information going through his nervous system.

See Guldo, for example. When he stopped time, Gohan and Kuririn weren't in the place he thought they were when the ability was activated, meaning they were faster than Guldo could see. Even before going tenfold, Hit couldn't see twofold, so the situation is even more extreme in this case.