Non-thread-worthy discussions

[Shaddy]

You do know what "canon" means, right? And that it has zero relation to "continuity", right? Takao Koyama saying he prefers for the movies to take place in different realities has no bearing in canonicity. Even if a work takes place outside of a continuity, it can still be a canonical work.

We've been over this before. 90% of the time people say something is "canon" or "non-canon", they mean that it does or does not exist within the main continuity of a work. Whenever a series branches off into a multiverse of alternate timelines, the fact that everything is technically canon is kind of irrelevant to the fact that the overwhelming majority of every story ever written for that series will never actually intersect with the main timeline that's usually busy doing its own thing. GT being "canon" to the greater Dragon Ball multiverse means absolutely nothing when it obviously doesn't fit in the main timeline's events. It's "not canon" to the manga, or Daima, or Super or what have you. You're just making things harder for yourself when you refuse to recognize that the colloquialism is a lot more prominent than the dictionary.

[jjgp1112]

The problem, grimlock, is that the hypothesis of the discussion you want to have is that the movies are all part of one interconnected universe, but we're pointing out how not even that's possible because the movies are chock full of details that negate each other's existence in relation to each other - best evidenced by how Movies 3, 4, and 5 all reference the Frieza conflict as if they're in their direct rearview mirror and thus require uniquely different endings of that for them to even happen in the way we see them - and then Movie 5 goes with what actually happened, so there's no way to work that into 2, 3 and 4.

The way Movie 3 is setup, you'd have to think Goku showed up on Namek, took care of the Ginyu force with no hiccups, and then killed Frieza and they used the Dragon Balls to wish Yamcha, Piccolo, Tien, and Chiaotzu back.

But by Movie 4, none of that had happened in the canon series yet. Based on King Kai's comment of "Not even Frieza could stop him!" after Lord Slug goes Kaiju and Goku's abilities, now we have to presume that the Goku pulled up after Vegeta's death, fought Frieza, and Frieza either didn't have his 50% Max Powa, or the Spirit Bomb actually worked. And thus Goku beat him without ever going Super Saiyan.

But by Movie 5, none of that had happened. Instead, we have to presume that...actually there's nothing to presume because by Movie 5 we know what actually happened, and those happenings are the direct catalyst of the plot! So Movie 3 and Movie 4 can't be connected with each other because they're relying on two completely different interpretations of the preceding events per the series' chronology. And then Movie 5 is a direct follow-up to the actual canon story that Movies, 2, 3, and 4 have no way of fitting within. So thus, we already have 5 movies that are all demonstrably independent of each other.

Whatever could possibly connect these movies can only exist in somebody's imagination. Koyama himself says they're not connected. But you're unwilling to accept this premise - you think that these movies don't contradict each other, and we're showing that they clearly do.

And hey, I'm sure it'd be plenty fun to theorize what could've happened between each of the movies if they were all theoretically connected. But because you're unwilling to concede that this is only a hypothetical connection and not a factual connection that's supported by either statements or the content of the movies themselves, we're having these circular arguments. Take a step back, understand the very root of your discussion is all conjecture, approach it that way, and then this can be a discussion you'd actually want to have.

(I just spent about 10 minutes concepting my own way of connecting the movies and STILL wound up having to steamroll Movie 3 And then New Namek in Movie 6 still fucks everything up lmao )

[Grimlock]

Movies 3, 4 and 5 have the exact same issues in relation to each other as Movie 2 does to them, in that they all presume vastly different conclusions of the Frieza fight as evidenced by Frieza being directly referenced in all of them,

(Where and when exactly is Freeza mentioned in Movie 2?

As for Movie 3, one of Turles' lackeys mentions Freeza, but his line clearly says that "Freeza will be defeated and Turles will become the next emperor of the Universe" or something to that effect. Movie 3 takes place before Freeza saga, as Freeza is implied to be alive with that line. But never mind that, as I also and already conceded Movie 3 to be out of continuity, so moving on).

As for Movie 4, I don't see how it "presumes vastly different conclusions of the Freeza fight", just because Goku didn't transform into Super Saiyan? If so, I already addressed this in previous debates. Goku returned earlier to Earth, without completeing his training with the Yadorats. This is based on Goku's line that he couldn't transform into Super Saiyan at will. Unless you can find a counterargument as to why Goku arriving earlier on Earth would be a problem.

As for Movie 5, same thing. I'm going to ask you to go in-depth in your arguments and provide context, otherwise I will be here asking for them all the time, thus the conversation won't go smoothly.

And what does Dead Zone have to do with any of this. The other movies can't fit together, so why would Dead Zone?

Because the only argument I see for Movie 1 is "Bulma and the others know about Gohan before Raditz", which can easily be explained (and I already did in the previous post). If that's the only argument, then Movie 1 is fine and unless you explain to me how Movie 4 is problematic, then I can place Movie 1 and Movie 4 in the same continuity.

Based on King Kai's comment of "Not even Frieza could stop him!" after Lord Slug goes Kaiju and Goku's abilities, now we have to presume that the Goku pulled up after Vegeta's death, fought Frieza, and Frieza either didn't have his 50% Max Powa, or the Spirit Bomb actually worked. And thus Goku beat him without ever going Super Saiyan.

Wait, what? Why!? Slug being stronger than Freeza means nothing, there's a gap between Freeza's power level and Super Saiyan Goku's power level, Slug could be somewhere in the middle or even if he was stronger than Goku, I don't see how the outcome would be different. It would mean Goku would need to transform into Super Saiyan, and he would have defeated Slug with it, but things here happened differently. Goku doesn't need to transform to defeat stronger opponents, see Buu, whom he defeated in base form. In fact, he defeated Slug in the very same way, he had to rely on Genki-Dama.

[jjgp1112]

Wait, what? Why!? Slug being stronger than Freeza means nothing, there's a gap between Freeza's power level and Super Saiyan Goku's power level, Slug could be somewhere in the middle or even if he was stronger than Goku, I don't see how the outcome would be different. It would mean Goku would need to transform into Super Saiyan, and he would have defeated Slug with it, but things here happened differently. Goku doesn't need to transform to defeat stronger opponents, see Buu, whom he defeated in base form. In fact, he defeated Slug in the very same way, he had to rely on Genki-Dama.

Slug being at a level of power worth comparing to Frieza means that Movie 3 couldn't have happened in its continutiy, because Frieza would have had to be far weaker than that for Movie 3 to happen . And the fact that Goku in this continuity defeated Frieza without ever having reached Super Saiyan is directly contradicted by Movie 5, which goes off the actual canon conclusion of the arc where Goku actually does achieve Super Saiyan.

This other argument you're trying to present is not only irrelevant...but nonsensical in and of itself because Goku is straight up incapable of going Super Saiyan in Movie 4. Meaning he, Slug and this theoretical Frieza are nowhere near as strong as Movie 5 Goku is. Super Saiyan Goku and 100% Frieza were not the subject of my Slug comparison - post-Ginyu, pre-Super Saiyan Goku and at-best 50% Frieza was. This lawyer logic you keep trying to peddle is running on fumes of fumes of fumes.

As for Movie 4, I don't see how it "presumes vastly different conclusions of the Freeza fight", just because Goku didn't transform into Super Saiyan? If so, I already addressed this in previous debates. Goku returned earlier to Earth, without completeing his training with the Yadorats. This is based on Goku's line that he couldn't transform into Super Saiyan at will. Unless you can find a counterargument as to why Goku arriving earlier on Earth would be a problem.

As for Movie 5, same thing. I'm going to ask you to go in-depth in your arguments and provide context, otherwise I will be here asking for them all the time, thus the conversation won't go smoothly.

Okay, then, let's go with your fanfiction scenario then - Goku just can't spontaneously go Super Saiyan in neither Movies 4 nor 5...so riddle me how he spontaneously reached Super Saiyan in Movie 5, but all he could muster in 4 was a psuedo-Super Saiyan that KING KAI THINKS ACTUALLY IS SUPER SAIYAN! But let's remove King Kai from this equation since his part shatters whatever argument you're trying to make anyway. After all, Lord Slug Phantom Super Saiyan scene and Movie 5's actual Super Saiyan are literally the exact same scenario - Goku getting his ass whooped, all hope is lost, he's thinking about his friends who are counting on him and snaps. Shit, in Movie 4 Goku goes straight to thinking about a Spirit Bomb, "if only I could go Super Saiyan" never crosses his mind because...it wasn't something he was capable of in Movie 4. So no, sorry, the "He actually did achieve Super Saiyan before Movie 4 but just couldn't do it in the fight" doesn't hold up to scrutiny either.

And wait, a minute, if you've already conceded that first three movies don't even fit into this continuity anyway...what are you even arguing at this point? Like, your premise is already DOA, what are we doing?????

[Grimlock]

And the fact that Goku in this continuity defeated Frieza without ever having reached Super Saiyan is directly contradicted by Movie 5, which goes off the actual canon conclusion of the arc where Goku actually does achieve Super Saiyan.

Fact? No, all of this are grounded assumptions and logical deductions. So there's no scenario where Goku defeated Freeza in base form, even in this dimension. While I am in favor of making changes to the anime to accomodate the movies, those changes must be as grounded as possible.

This other argument you're trying to present is not only irrelevant...but nonsensical in and of itself because Goku is straight up incapable of going Super Saiyan in Movie 4. Meaning he, Slug and this theoretical Frieza are nowhere near as strong as Movie 5 Goku is. Super Saiyan Goku and 100% Frieza were not the subject of my Slug comparison - post-Ginyu, pre-Super Saiyan Goku and at-best 50% Frieza was. This lawyer logic you keep trying to peddle is running on fumes of fumes of fumes.

And they never were. Even though Slug is stronger than Freeza, and he is still weaker than Coola. As for Goku, there's a gap of a few years between Movie 4 and Movie 5, meaning there's time for Goku to be as strong as he's supposed to be by that movie. I would place Movie 4 in AGE 763, the guidebook places Movie 5 at some point during the three years preceding the androids' appearances (so anywhere between AGE 764 and AGE 767).

[jjgp1112]

And the fact that Goku in this continuity defeated Frieza without ever having reached Super Saiyan is directly contradicted by Movie 5, which goes off the actual canon conclusion of the arc where Goku actually does achieve Super Saiyan.

Fact? No, all of this are grounded assumptions and logical deductions. So there's no scenario where Goku defeated Freeza in base form, even in this dimension. While I am in favor of making changes to the anime to accomodate the movies, those changes must be as grounded as possible.

This other argument you're trying to present is not only irrelevant...but nonsensical in and of itself because Goku is straight up incapable of going Super Saiyan in Movie 4. Meaning he, Slug and this theoretical Frieza are nowhere near as strong as Movie 5 Goku is. Super Saiyan Goku and 100% Frieza were not the subject of my Slug comparison - post-Ginyu, pre-Super Saiyan Goku and at-best 50% Frieza was. This lawyer logic you keep trying to peddle is running on fumes of fumes of fumes.

And they never were. Even though Slug is stronger than Freeza, and he is still weaker than Coola. As for Goku, there's a gap of a few years between Movie 4 and Movie 5, meaning there's time for Goku to be as strong as he's supposed to be by that movie. I would place Movie 4 in AGE 763, the guidebook places Movie 5 at some point during the three years preceding the androids' appearances (so anywhere between AGE 764 and AGE 767).

Check my edit because again, none of what you're saying passes the smell test

Okay, then, let's go with your fanfiction scenario then - Goku just can't spontaneously go Super Saiyan in neither Movies 4 nor 5...so riddle me how he spontaneously reached Super Saiyan in Movie 5, but all he could muster in 4 was a psuedo-Super Saiyan that KING KAI THINKS ACTUALLY IS SUPER SAIYAN! But let's remove King Kai from this equation since his part shatters whatever argument you're trying to make anyway. After all, Lord Slug Phantom Super Saiyan scene and Movie 5's actual Super Saiyan are literally the exact same scenario - Goku getting his ass whooped, all hope is lost, he's thinking about his friends who are counting on him and snaps. Shit, in Movie 4 Goku goes straight to thinking about a Spirit Bomb, "if only I could go Super Saiyan" never crosses his mind because...it wasn't something he was capable of in Movie 4. So no, sorry, the "He actually did achieve Super Saiyan before Movie 4 but just couldn't do it in the fight" doesn't hold up to scrutiny either.

And wait, a minute, if you've already conceded that first three movies don't even fit into this continuity anyway...what are you even arguing at this point? Like, your premise is already DOA, what are we doing?????

is "I've already admitted Movie 4 doesn't fit, why are you still stuck on that?" coming next?

[Grimlock]

Okay, then, let's go with your fanfiction scenario then - Goku just can't spontaneously go Super Saiyan in neither Movies 4 nor 5...so riddle me how he spontaneously reached Super Saiyan in Movie 5, but all he could muster in 4 was a psuedo-Super Saiyan that KING KAI THINKS ACTUALLY IS SUPER SAIYAN! But let's remove King Kai from this equation since his part shatters whatever argument you're trying to make anyway.

It doesn't shatter anything, because False Super Saiyan is a thing, explained by the scenario that Goku didn't finish his training with the Yadorats and returned earlier to Earth.

Nowhere in Movie 5 has Goku not being able to spontaneously go Super Saiyan. It was merely a decision by Toei to mimic his fight with Freeza by holding Super Saiyan up until later.

And wait, a minute, if you've already conceded that first three movies don't even fit into this continuity anyway...what are you even arguing at this point? Like, your premise is already DOA, what are we doing?????

Nope. I only conceded Movie 2 and Movie 3 specifically, you would know that if you had read my posts. That is why I keep asking to discuss Movie 1, because that one I never conceded, because we haven't talked about it yet, because you keep not addressing it despite the countless times I asked you to say how Movie 1 contradicts the other movies.

[jjgp1112]

It doesn't shatter anything, because False Super Saiyan is a thing, explained by the scenario that Goku didn't finish his training with the Yadorats and returned earlier to Earth.

Nowhere in Movie 5 has Goku not being able to spontaneously go Super Saiyan. It was merely a decision by Toei to mimic his fight with Freeza by holding Super Saiyan up until later.

Yeah, okay, I've seen enough. We're done here.

you also haven't addressed why King Kai thought Super Saiyan 0 actually was Super Saiyan

[Grimlock]

Should I? There seems to be a double standards going on. In the "base Goku can't defeat Freeza" nonsense, we have people misinterpreting Beerus' line as the truth because "it hasn't been contradicted yet". Here, you want me acknowledge that the form Goku used in Movie 4 is the actual Super Saiyan? Even though it clearly isn't!? Because the actual Super Saiyan form visual contradicts what was seen in that movie?

Bye. Oh, and next time, don't waste both of our times, more importantly, mine.

[jjgp1112]

Should I? There seems to be a double standards going on. In the "base Goku can't defeat Freeza" nonsense, we have people misinterpreting Beerus' line as the truth because "it hasn't been contradicted yet". Now here, you want me acknowledge that the transformation Goku used in Movie 4 is the actual Super Saiyan? Even though it clearly isn't!? Because the actual Super Saiyan form visual contradicts what was seen in that movie?

Bye. Oh, and next time, don't waste both of our times, more importantly, mine.

Stop twisting my words to make them mean things that are literally the exact opposite of what I'm saying. It's why multiple users have stopped thinking you're acting in good faith.

[dbgtFO]

What does everyone think about Goku slapping Chi Chi through their house and into a boulder?
It was of course an accident and there was clearly no malice presented by Goku, but Chi Chi had been screaming at Goku about not wanting Gohan to help against the android threat 3 years in the future, but after the slap, she gave concessions and allowed it.
It's supposed to be humorous, but is the takeaway, that she couldn't be reasoned with by talking, so some light domestic violence was needed to make her relent or what?

Prior to this the other time we saw her relent in regards to Gohan going down Goku's path was when Gohan told her to shut up at the hospital.
What was Toriyama reallytrying to say here?

[jjgp1112]

What does everyone think about Goku slapping Chi Chi through their house and into a boulder?
It was of course an accident and there was clearly no malice presented by Goku, but Chi Chi had been screaming at Goku about not wanting Gohan to help against the android threat 3 years in the future, but after the slap, she gave concessions and allowed it.
It's supposed to be humorous, but is the takeaway, that she couldn't be reasoned with by talking, so some light domestic violence was needed to make her relent or what?

Prior to this the other time we saw her relent in regards to Gohan going down Goku's path was when Gohan told her to shut up at the hospital.
What was Toriyama reallytrying to say here?

I can only go off the Viz translaton for what she says in the manga but assuming it's not changed too much, the anime decided to take another opportunity to make something way more problematic by having Chi-Chi say something to the effect of "Well, I guess the man of the house has spoken" which...yeah

Edit: Just checked...both Kai and the Viz manga have the line as "it's always the women left to sit at home and cry" while the original Z anime it's "The woman always backs down eventually" Still worse but admittedly not as problematic as I for whatever reason remembered it being.

[MasenkoHA]

As for Movie 4, I don't see how it "presumes vastly different conclusions of the Freeza fight", just because Goku didn't transform into Super Saiyan? If so, I already addressed this in previous debates. Goku returned earlier to Earth, without completeing his training with the Yadorats. This is based on Goku's line that he couldn't transform into Super Saiyan at will. Unless you can find a counterargument as to why Goku arriving earlier on Earth would be a problem.

Because, as had been explained to you a million times just in this thread alone

Movie 4- Goku does not have the ability to become a Super Saiyan. When he becomes a Pseudo Super Saiyan Kai wonders if he's become a Super Sayan. Meaning, and stay with me on this, HE'S NEVER SEEN GOKU BECOME A SUPER SAIYAN BEFORE

Movie 5- Goku becomes a Super Saiyan. This isn't his first time as Coola even says "I see how you defeated my brother" or something to that effect.

Reiterate

Movie 4- Goku defeated Freeza without becoming a Super Saiyan. And his False Super Saiyan form is treated as maybe the first time he became a Super Saiyan

Movie 5- Goku defeated Freeza as a Super Saiyan and his Super Saiyan transformation against Coola isn't treated as his first time

As for Movie 5, same thing. I'm going to ask you to go in-depth in your arguments and provide context, otherwise I will be here asking for them all the time, thus the conversation won't go smoothly.

He did as has everyone else, you just continue to do your insufferable schtick of arguing in bad faith, moving the goalpost, and completely disregard what is being said to you.

Because the only argument I see for Movie 1 is "Bulma and the others know about Gohan before Raditz", which can easily be explained (and I already did in the previous post). If that's the only argument, then Movie 1 is fine

Unless your explanation is "Everyone got their memories wiped" no no you cannot. In Z episode 2 Bulma and the others are just meeting Gohan for the first time. In Z movie 1 they already know who he is. Also Goku and Piccolo are shocked at Gohan's display of power against Raditz which they shouldn't be if the first movie had occured in the same timeline (because it didn't)

and unless you explain to me how Movie 4 is problematic, then I can place Movie 1 and Movie 4 in the same continuity.

Other than Raditz never came to earth in movie 1 and movie 4 still requires everything up until Goku fights Freeza to still happen.....sure?

You can certainly pretend that the Saiyan arc happened after movie 1 but differently but the thing everyone has told you is the movies do not all fit in one universe. There is no Movieverse. Z movie 2-5 all take.place after Freeza/Namek but only movie 5 shows Goku with the ability to become Super Saiyan. Movie 6-9 all take place after the Androids but only movie 9 has Goku dead and Gohan with the ability to become Super Saiyan 2. Movie 10-13 all take place after Boo (or at least after the Tenkaichi Budokai in the case of movie 10 and 11) but only movie 13 has Goku and Vegeta alive again

Wait, what? Why!? Slug being stronger than Freeza means nothing, there's a gap between Freeza's power level and Super Saiyan Goku's power level, Slug could be somewhere in the middle or even if he was stronger than Goku, I don't see how the outcome would be different. It would mean Goku would need to transform into Super Saiyan, and he would have defeated Slug with it, but things here happened differently. Goku doesn't need to transform to defeat stronger opponents, see Buu, whom he defeated in base form. In fact, he defeated Slug in the very same way, he had to rely on Genki-Dama.

Do you just completely ignore context so you can be selective with your arguments? (Rhetorical question, obviously you do)

Kaio refers to Slug as stronger than Freeza in THE VERY SAME MOVIE where he wonders if Goku had became a Super Saiyan, something he wouldn't have questioned if he had already seen Goku turn Super Saiyan on Namek.

You can pretend that Goku became a Super Saiyan on Namek in movie's 4 timeline and was just only.able to attain an intermediate form against Slug but you have to completely ignore that Kaio acts like Goku may have possibly became a Super Saiyan for the first time against Slug and he's not sure.

Just like you can pretend Movie 1 takes place before Raditz but you have to ignore that Bulma and the others already know who Gohan is and that he's Goku son and somehow Piccolo and Goku are completely shocked about how strong Gohan is, despite allegedly seeing his powers against Garlic Jr.

You'rs absolutely free to create your Grimlock movieverse but you still have to ignore key information for it to all fit.

[Grimlock]

Not that I care about what any of you random ones think of me, I'm just going to leave a few evidences of long conversations that went smoothly.

So the problem, as greatly evidenced, isn't me. It's just that if I don't outright and right away agree with your preferences, then you paint me as "the villain" of the conversation. In fact, the fact that one of them was about this very subject proves that this can be discussed in "good faith". Speaking of which, that's your only argument, isn't? "Arguing in bad faith" is the only thing you say to me, because you are incapable of saying anything worthwhile. One of them lasted over a month, one can wonder how that conversation lasted so long if I'm always "arguing in bad faith" (and look how it ended). Anyway, the evidences speak for themselves, it's utter and completely clear who's really in bad faith here. I'll be more wary from now on about who to talk to, I feel like I'm surrounded by kids in the kindergarten if this needs to be done, but so be it.

[VegettoEX]

So the problem, as greatly evidenced, isn't me.

No, it is.

Your posts are very frustrating to read. You frustrate other users. I am frustrated by you, and by your posts. They do not read as someone who wants to have a genuine conversation, and they do not read as someone who is a fun person to converse with. I do not get anything new out of them, because they don't serve that purpose, seemingly by design.

I am being direct with you because I believe you need this direct feedback, and because I believe it has the potential to change your contributions. Please consider this as you make further posts. As it stands, I do not look forward to reading your posts. I would prefer that this was not the case.

[Grimlock]

But you do get something new out of every "this not canon" that pops up? I'm proposing a "different lens" due to the current "hot theme" we are experiencing today in pop culture in how we approach the Dragon Ball movies, but that's not new? No, it is not. New is to keep saying what is canon and what is not incessantly without anyone getting called out. How those posts are very interesting and not at all embarrasing and frustrating to read. Let's all strive for more of those posts, please!

With the evidences that you conveniently ignored, you can count on me to be making certain considerations. Thank you.

[jjgp1112]

Not that I care about what any of you random ones think of me, I'm just going to leave a few evidences of long conversations that went smoothly.

So the problem, as greatly evidenced, isn't me. It's just that if I don't outright and right away agree with your preferences, then you paint me as "the villain" of the conversation. In fact, the fact that one of them was about this very subject proves that this can be discussed in "good faith". Speaking of which, that's your only argument, isn't? "Arguing in bad faith" is the only thing you say to me, because you are incapable of saying anything worthwhile. One of them lasted over a month, one can wonder how that conversation lasted so long if I'm always "arguing in bad faith" (and look how it ended). Anyway, the evidences speak for themselves, it's utter and completely clear who's really in bad faith here. I'll be more wary from now on about who to talk to, I feel like I'm surrounded by kids in the kindergarten if this needs to be done, but so be it.

Unless my comprehension ability is going away at my ripe old age of 32...onky two of the threads you linked to went smoothly at all, as otherwise you kept getting repeatedly shot down by everybody and continuing just talk around their arguments. The only difference is KBABZ isn't a psychopath with a pathological need to "win" arguments like I am and didn't lose his patience.

But you do get something new out of every "this not canon" that pops up? I'm proposing a "different lens" due to the current "hot theme" we are experiencing today in pop culture in how we approach the Dragon Ball movies, but that's not new? No, it is not. New is to keep saying what is canon and what is not incessantly without anyone getting called out. How those posts are very interesting and not at all embarrasing and frustrating to read. Let's all strive for more of those posts, please!

With the evidences that you conveniently ignored, you can count on me to be making certain considerations. Thank you.

I post this screenshot with the hope that it will be very illuminating to you:

[Kid Buu]

Always had it in my head-canon that Movie 4 took place in a universe where the Genki Dama defeated Freeza.

[Zephyr]

Unrelated to whether or not all of the movies exist in the same timeline as one another, the Garlic Jr. arc does at least ask the viewer to believe that DBZ Movie 1 and the Saiyan arc both happened in the same timeline. Somehow.

[JulieYBM]

Unrelated to whether or not all of the movies exist in the same timeline as one another, the Garlic Jr. arc does at least ask the viewer to believe that DBZ Movie 1 and the Saiyan arc both happened in the same timeline. Somehow.

I mean, repetitiveness aside, is it that big a stretch?