Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If it was just a regular Kaioken it would be fine, Beerus would defeat Goku despite the power disadvantage like you putted it. Kaioken x10 is a massive power advantage over Beerus, so much that whatever techniques Beerus possesses, durability and even handicaps the Kaioken provides are trumped.

If this Goku is indeed a 60, he could end Beerus in one swing.

Again, he he has learned the technique to make each part of his body move on its own, making him capable of avoiding attacks stronger than him, though he hasn't mastered it yet. We haven't seen exactly what advantage this technique gives against most powerful opponents like KKx10 SSB Goku, but based on Toriyama's words, Beerus should be capable of avoiding KKx10 SSB Goku's attacks for a time, and Goku can't maintain KK for long time periods.


Also, Hit survived multiple hits from KKx10 SSB Goku, even though he is weaker than SSB Goku. So, it appears that Goku can't use the full extent of KK yet, either because of the strain it puts to his body, or because he hasn't perfected the technique yet. So, he may be a 60, but he can't punch as hard as someone whose regular power power is at 60.

[Hugo Boss]

Freeza was relaxed, so that conclusion doesn't really make much sense. Freeza never powered-up. Most of the audience knows Freeza is a lot more powerful once he decides to power-up compared to when he's relaxed. We're given no reason to believe he was ever at full-power.

This is practically the same argument we see when confronting Beerus' line on Kaio's planet. We saw Freeza and Goku using different powerlevels in their initial states on Namek, but I don't think the plot requires that to be a perennial fact. In this case, Freeza powers-up when he decides to transform into his final form. Goku powers-up when he transforms into Super Saiyan. The idea of supressing power in the same form seems to be abandoned a long time ago.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku never powered-up to fight Ginyu, Freeza, or hell, even Yakon. Goku isn't Freeza. How they bring out their powers differ from one another. Also, the line from Beers was to show Base Goku was no match for Freeza. Why does this situation need to apply to Freeza?

Tagoma was a lot stronger than before, but he still wasn't at full-power until he flared his Chi. Freeza never fought, so it's reasonable to assume he wasn't at full-power.

[Faisal Shourov]

Again, he he has learned the technique to make each part of his body move on its own, making him capable of avoiding attacks stronger than him, though he hasn't mastered it yet. We haven't seen exactly what advantage this technique gives against most powerful opponents like KKx10 SSB Goku, but based on Toriyama's words, Beerus should be capable of avoiding KKx10 SSB Goku's attacks for a time, and Goku can't maintain KK for long time periods.


Also, Hit survived multiple hits from KKx10 SSB Goku, even though he is weaker than SSB Goku. So, it appears that Goku can't use the full extent of KK yet, either because of the strain it puts to his body, or because he hasn't perfected the technique yet. So, he may be a 60, but he can't punch as hard as someone whose regular power power is at 60.

If Goku is indeed 60, Beerus dies with a poke. Remember Whis KO Beerus with 15? Yeah, Goku kills Whis and Vados at the same time with a slap. That's how big the gap is

Unless of course the old scale is no longer relevant. Since the kaioken contradicts it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Goku is indeed 60, Beerus dies with a poke. Remember Whis KO Beerus with 15? Yeah, Goku kills Whis and Vados at the same time with a slap. That's how big the gap is

Yet Hit, who is weaker than SSB Goku, survives multiple hits from Kaio-ken x10 SSB Goku. This could mean that Goku can't use the full extent of his power.

But then again, this is Toei doing the fights, and they are usually inconsistent when it comes to power gaps. I'll wait for the manga.

[Speedster]

Yet Hit, who is weaker than SSB Goku, survives multiple hits from Kaio-ken x10 SSB Goku. This could mean that Goku can't use the full extent of his power.

Hit flat out stated he got stronger than before and he even thought for a stance to draw out his new found potential. It is worth noting that when he said he that he “grew” he didn't only refer to increasing the time limit of his tokitobashi. First he himself said that he "grew to get stronger" and then Goku who received the hit (by Hit) confirmed that too. And you also had Vegeta, Piccolo and Krillin commenting and being amazed by the fact too (referring it as powered up attack). Not only this but Hit allowed Goku to power up to Kaiokenx10 as he was confident he would “grow” to rise to that power level himself too and even wondered for how much he and Goku can keep increasing their power. So the Hit we saw at the end of the episode receiving punches from SSBKKx10 Goku is not weaker than SSB Goku anymore. He is higher than that. Plus he likely grew further anyway.

If Goku is indeed 60, Beerus dies with a poke. Remember Whis KO Beerus with 15? Yeah, Goku kills Whis and Vados at the same time with a slap. Unless of course the old scale is no longer relevant.

The simple thing to say is that he scale is exponential. Goku said that he developed the technique to take on Beerus some day .... but not today. I estimate that in that scale Goku is now a "9" and can reach Beerus with KKx100.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku never powered-up to fight Ginyu, Freeza, or hell, even Yakon. Goku isn't Freeza. How they bring out their powers differ from one another. Also, the line from Beers was to show Base Goku was no match for Freeza. Why does this situation need to apply to Freeza?

Tagoma was a lot stronger than before, but he still wasn't at full-power until he flared his Chi. Freeza never fought, so it's reasonable to assume he wasn't at full-power.

Because like Base Goku, Freeza doesn't display a power-up in his first form, he simply transforms. Therefore, the reason you claim is related to a past event. The present doesn't direct imply he is hiding power in his first form.

[RandomGuy96]

I got it from that statement you just made. You're assuming that the Buu that fought Pure Buu is the same as the one who fought Grey Buu. Unless Pure Buu and Grey Buu are equal, which doesn't seem to be the case in your eyes, that doesn't make sense.

Well, isn't the same? I didn't mention Kid Boo, I said that Mr. Boo, yes the one who fought against him, don't have the same power that he had against Dabura, Gohan, Kaioshin, Goku and etc.

But you got me on doubt now, shouldn't Super Boo become Grey Boo after they release Mr. Boo inside him?

That's the point. If Grey Buu isn't identical to Pure Buu, then logically Mr. Buu isn't identical to the version that fought Grey Buu.

I've always wondered that as well. My personal theory on why Super Buu didn't become Grey Buu is as follows:

Evil Buu was the result of an imperfection fusion split. It was basically Pure Buu + some influence of Dai and South Kaioshin, hence his clothing, looks, and emaciated appearance. Good Buu, on the other hand, represented most, but not all, of the Kaioshins' influence and power. After Evil Buu absorbed his good counterpart, things were rearranged: Evil Buu was purified, with all of his Kaioshin influence being transferred to the Good Buu (who I am now calling "Mr. Buu"). Stripped of this power and influence, the base of the fusion, which had previously been Evil Buu, was now purified into Pure Buu.

The tall, intelligent, muscular Buu was essentially Pure Buu with the South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin absorbed, combined in an ideal fusion state, unlike the complete Fat Buu, who was an imperfect fusion, dumber and weaker (think fat Gotenks vs regular Gotenks). He was basically Buff Buu with Dai Kaioshin's influence tempering him: this made him slightly weaker, but it also suppressed Pure Buu's savagery and allowed him to make use of the Kaioshins' mental capabilities, more than making up for the small loss in power. This explains why Super Buu looks just like Pure Buu, but bigger. To put it more simply, he was now just Pure Buu [Mr. Buu absorbed]. After Vegeta ripped out Mr. Buu, all traces of the Kaioshin left with him, leaving only the base state of Buu: his original form.

So relaxed Freeza is just more powerful than Gohan. I have no issue with that.
That means relaxed Freeza is just stronger than Gohan.

The existence of "relaxed" Freeza as a different level isn't something supported in the series, just like the existence of "relaxed" base Goku.

Krillin never said Boo would've beaten Freeza at all. That's a spin you added. He said they have Boo on their side. The only thing that means is he's the most capable of fighting him after Goku and Vegeta

You and I both know that what you said isn't at all the case:

Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”

He doesn't just say that they have Buu on their side. He says that, despite Goku and Vegeta being gone, "things are alright, we've got Buu". That's an indirect statement that Buu can handle Freeza... otherwise things would be, you know, not alright.

As for Tagoma, I can agree that his Chi just stood out more because he powered-up.

Good. Now that that's out of the way...

However, this only means Freeza was just far more powerful than Gohan without needing to power-up. Gohan also said Tagoma was hiding power on-par with him at his best, and Ginyu later brings that power out. Gohan's best is superior to Mr. Boo, so Freeza certainly isn't weaker than him.

That's not true.

Ok so the sub I watch which are very accurate. Gohan said this about Togoma before Ginyu body change, "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what I had in my prime."

It's not "prime" in the sense of the strongest he's ever been in his entire life, but more like "peak condition", in the sense of his current personal best, when he isn't tired/wounded/etc.

Not sure why anyone ever believed this tbh, since Gohan proceeds to take down Ginyu-Tagoma with just his Super Saiyan.

It's only unlikely if you try to pretend we never saw Freeza power-up to reach his best. Saying he was at full-power despite having no reason to be makes no sense. Piccolo acknowledged Freeza as a monster with an outrageously large Chi when he arrived on Namek, then notes that his Chi was increasing once he began to power-up. There's actually instances of Freeza needing to power-up to fight at his best despite already possessing a huge Chi.

And Goku doesn't walk around at full power all the time. The point is, Krillin's statement goes uncontradicted, and we're never given a reason to believe Freeza had more power in store. If that was truly the intention, we would have gotten something, especially considering how much this arc was hyping him up.

Everyone being afraid does not require Freeza to be at full-power. Everyone being afraid requires Freeza to be stronger than them.

Care to prove he had more power?

Freeza was relaxed, so that conclusion doesn't really make much sense. Freeza never powered-up. Most of the audience knows Freeza is a lot more powerful once he decides to power-up compared to when he's relaxed. We're given no reason to believe he was ever at full-power.

None of the characters comment on misreading him. We're given no reason to believe he was ever suppressed especially when he was beating up Gohan.

I can do this too:

"Goku was relaxed, so that conclusion doesn't really make much sense. Goku never powered up. Most of the audience knows base Goku is a lot more powerful once he decides to power-up compared to when he's relaxed. We're given no reason to believe he was ever at full power". Therefore Toriyama was just trying to fool us and base Goku is actually a lot stronger than Freeza.

Goku never powered-up to fight Ginyu, Freeza, or hell, even Yakon. Goku isn't Freeza. How they bring out their powers differ from one another.

Goku had to power up to go from 5,000 to 8,000 during his fight with Nappa.

Also, the line from Beers was to show Base Goku was no match for Freeza. Why does this situation need to apply to Freeza?

The line from Krillin was to give the character temporary hope spot ("things are alright, we've got Buu") before crushing it with a contrivance ("Huh... where's Buu?"). I'm not sure what your point is here.

I like Kaboom's logic in cases like this:

No, it's common sense. You can't seem to grasp the fact that if a character says something, and you want to introduce doubt about it, then the so-called "burden of proof" that you keep talking about is on YOU. This isn't real life where people speak erroneously or just plain lie and nobody ever knows. This is a fictional story where things are purposely revealed and explained by the writers and very few things are ever left an open-ended mystery. If the writers tell us <Thing A> within a story, then <Thing A> is true until something else contradicts it.

Saying "maybe Goku was suppressed" is nothing more than baseless and pointless speculation until YOU produce something tangible to actually show that's the case, because nothing less than actual proof will counteract such a direct line. My "Goku's a clone" and "Beerus was dreaming" bits were supposed to be extreme examples to demonstrate this truth, but you still don't get it.

If some guy told you that his mother's name was Janet, would you insist that he prove it? Would you tell him that unless he brings you to meet his mother face-to-face and show photo IDs, birth certificates, and DNA test results for both of them in order to prove that they are indeed a mother and son and that the mother's name is legally "Janet," then you don't believe him? That nobody can REALLY be sure his mother's name is Janet without definite, total proof?

Well this is just as absurd. You're insisting that Beerus' line, a face-to-face observation that remains completely uncontradicted, can't just be true or trusted unless it's proven true. That's ridiculous. It's an asinine waste of time for everyone involved.

I want to drive home how inane the "Beerus was wrong because Goku was suppressed" excuse is. We've never had to assume a character is suppressed, or been left wondering if a character is holding back or not. If they are, then as I mentioned earlier they're almost always revealed to be. Here's all the examples I can remember...

Kuririn thinks Goku exerted himself against King Chappa: Goku says "nah, if I gave it my all, he'd be dead."
Tenshinhan intends to kill Goku and seems to be winning: Goku reveals he's only been using his "tournament power," and ramps it up to his "battle power."
Goku is struggling against King Piccolo: Ol' KP reveals that he's been using less than half his power.
Nappa's already anxious about fighting Goku's PL of 5,000: Goku makes it even worse for him by powering up to over 8,000.
Freeza's two scouts think Gohan and Kuririn are weaklings: They release their 1,500-ish PLs and easily beat them.
Kwi thinks Vegeta's PL is still 18,000: Vegeta reveals he learned how to change his power, then goes up to his full 24,000 and kills Kwi.
Freeza's soldiers think Future Trunks' PL is only 5: The heroes in the distance feel Trunks' power drastically increase when he easily kills the soldiers.
Future Gohan thinks he can take the Androids: Seventeen reveals he used less than half his power last time they fought, then kills him.
Super Vegeta is still doing OK against Perfect Cell: Kuririn and Vegeta both seem to realize Cell is holding back, and Cell quickly proves them right.
Goku isn't sure what Perfect Cell ahead of time: Cell eventually reveals his full power against Gohan.
Piccolo wonders if SS3 Goku could have beaten Fat Boo: Goku later reveals that yes, he could have.
Tarble scans Goku, doesn't think he can help against Avo and Cado: Goku powers up and goes Super Saiyan. Tarble's scouter explodes.

And so on and so forth. I'm sure there's others that I'm missing. But meanwhile, in Battle of Gods and Super...

[Speedster]

Goku never powered-up to fight Ginyu, Freeza, or hell, even Yakon. Goku isn't Freeza. How they bring out their powers differ from one another. Also, the line from Beers was to show Base Goku was no match for Freeza. Why does this situation need to apply to Freeza?

Tagoma was a lot stronger than before, but he still wasn't at full-power until he flared his Chi. Freeza never fought, so it's reasonable to assume he wasn't at full-power.

Because like Base Goku, Freeza doesn't display a power-up in his first form, he simply transforms. Therefore, the reason you claim is related to a past event. The present doesn't direct imply he is hiding power in his first form.

In ep. 20 when the Z fighters fly towards the point Freeza's spaceship was about to arrive were all very concerned. And were just generally feeling Freeza without knowing the form he was in. Tenshinhan in particular comments about the huge Ki of the revived Freeza and that at least has to be larger than the Mecha Freeza he sensed when he last visited Earth and fought Trunks. So First Form Freeza at that time (partially suppressed or not) was at least above his original final form (supposedly 120 million). So even if he was suppressed he was not that suppressed.

Also all that dialogue in ep.21 about having Buu being all right was BEFORE Freeza came out of the ship and saw him in his first form. They also had no reason to assume he would be in his first form given that last time he came to Earth was in his final form. So for all we know whatever they were sensing at the time they believed was the true thing (without having to multiply it by 3 transformations further) but with Buu on their side they would be able to handle it. Still to need Buu to deal with it must had been something of Cell's level at least. So much for the "suppressed" first form Freeza then. He really does a pretty shit job suppressing his power level if being at Perfect Cell's level is "suppressed". It is far more logical then to assume he was NOT suppressed. Not by a ridiculous margin at least. If he was suppressed at 20-30% (something reasonable given the lack of suppression to low levels) he would still be below Buu even when powering up to the max of his first form. Or at the very least in that ballpark. Consequently Tagoma, Piccolo, SSJ Gohan, etc are all below Mr Buu. As also implied in ep. 30 during the fighter selection.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The existence of "relaxed" Freeza as a different level isn't something supported in the series, just like the existence of "relaxed" base Goku.

So relaxed Freeza didn't have a Chi far above everyone else's on Namek before powering-up to reveal greater power? Or are you only talking about Super?

He doesn't just say that they have Buu on their side. He says that, despite Goku and Vegeta being gone, "things are alright, we've got Buu". That's an indirect statement that Buu can handle Freeza... otherwise things would be, you know, not alright.

The statement is indicating that Boo is their only other chance at dealing with Freeza outside of having Goku and Vegeta there. It's similar to what Krillin said about Gotenks:

Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”

So "I guess that's all right, we've got Boo" doesn't necessarily mean everything is all right. He just happened to be their last option. Nothing in that statement is saying Mr. Boo is more powerful than Freeza at all.

Not sure why anyone ever believed this tbh, since Gohan proceeds to take down Ginyu-Tagoma with just his Super Saiyan.

That's pretty weird, then. Gohan just ate a senzu bean, so he was pretty much at peak condition. His Super Saiyan wasn't just Super Saiyan, either; it was a means of temporarily bringing out his full-power. He can't draw out his full-power because he hasn't been training, so he had no choice but to temporarily turn Super Saiyan. Gohan only seemed to realize his lack of training prevented him from becoming Ultimate mid-way during the battle with Tagoma. Knowing this, Freeza would've already been superior to his Ultimate state regardless.

And Goku doesn't walk around at full power all the time. The point is, Krillin's statement goes uncontradicted, and we're never given a reason to believe Freeza had more power in store. If that was truly the intention, we would have gotten something, especially considering how much this arc was hyping him up.

There are many instances of Base Goku fighting at his best without doing a visible power-up. When Freeza walked around with a monstrous Chi on Namek, he still had to power-up to get to his highest level. Krillin's statement needs no contradiction because nothing was ever set in stone by it to begin with. Freeza said he was going to fight Goku at his best right off the bat because of the last battle, so there was never an opportunity to explore his first form.

Care to prove he had more power?

The fact that Freeza was already considered superior to Gohan before he realized he couldn't draw out his full-power while fighting Tagoma says as much. The fact that he was never in a situation where he had to exert himself or power-up says as much. Can you prove he was at full-power?

None of the characters comment on misreading him. We're given no reason to believe he was ever suppressed especially when he was beating up Gohan.

No opportunity for that ever arisen. He was already way above all of them without doing anything. He was able to easily torture Gohan because he was already way stronger than him. Remember when Freeza easily finger beamed Dende's little brother?

"Goku was relaxed, so that conclusion doesn't really make much sense. Goku never powered up. Most of the audience knows base Goku is a lot more powerful once he decides to power-up compared to when he's relaxed. We're given no reason to believe he was ever at full power".

Thing is, there are many instances of Base Goku fighting all-out without ever doing a power-up. When does first form Freeza ever do this?

Therefore Toriyama was just trying to fool us and base Goku is actually a lot stronger than Freeza.

Good thing this example does not apply.

Goku had to power up to go from 5,000 to 8,000 during his fight with Nappa.

And proceeds to never power-up in Base throughout Z again. Therefore, he isn't comparable to Freeza in this instance.

The line from Krillin was to give the character temporary hope spot ("things are alright, we've got Buu") before crushing it with a contrivance ("Huh... where's Buu?"). I'm not sure what your point is here.

Temporary hope doesn't really mean much. In Gohan's mind, Freeza was beyond anything he was capable of. His capabilities far exceed Mr. Boo's. That''s the point.

[Faisal Shourov]

The simple thing to say is that he scale is exponential. Goku said that he developed the technique to take on Beerus some day .... but not today. I estimate that in that scale Goku is now a "9" and can reach Beerus with KKx100.

Simple for us maybe, Toriyama has never used exponential multiplier in the show, nor any hint anywhere of being so

[apex_pretador]

Krillin never said Boo would've beaten Freeza at all. That's a spin you added. He said they have Boo on their side. The only thing that means is he's the most capable of fighting him after Goku and Vegeta

You and I both know that what you said isn't at all the case:

Kuririn: “Goku and Vegeta aren't here yet? Well, I guess that's all right, we've got Boo, and...Huh? Where's Boo?”

He doesn't just say that they have Buu on their side. He says that, despite Goku and Vegeta being gone, "things are alright, we've got Buu". That's an indirect statement that Buu can handle Freeza... otherwise things would be, you know, not alright.

He also says YET which means they will be there sooner or later and buu can handle freeza atleast that long. And again , you are forgetting that buu can bounce back from much harder hits than his own, he can regenerate almost everything, he can one shot him with a candy beam etc, he can shape-shift (Like what he did vs M vegeta).
The only instances where candy beam was deflected or dodged were against other buu's and krillin didn't see them. Also, both of them knew perfectly about the candy beam, freeza doesn't.

So, first form freeza can be >= SS3 goku (Buu arc) and fat buu can handle him like he handled kid buu.
They also have gohan and gotenks (The same gotenks who is >> Super buu) to help against freeza.

Again, why didnt krillin be glad that they also have gotenks (who's >> Super buu >> fat buu) ??

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Hit flat out stated he got stronger than before and he even thought for a stance to draw out his new found potential. It is worth noting that when he said he that he “grew” he didn't only refer to increasing the time limit of his tokitobashi. First he himself said that he "grew to get stronger" and then Goku who received the hit (by Hit) confirmed that too. And you also had Vegeta, Piccolo and Krillin commenting and being amazed by the fact too (referring it as powered up attack). Not only this but Hit allowed Goku to power up to Kaiokenx10 as he was confident he would “grow” to rise to that power level himself too and even wondered for how much he and Goku can keep increasing their power. So the Hit we saw at the end of the episode receiving punches from SSBKKx10 Goku is not weaker than SSB Goku anymore. He is higher than that. Plus he likely grew further anyway.

When did I ever say that KKx10 SSB Goku was weaker than SSB Goku?

[dbgtFO]

Hit flat out stated he got stronger than before and he even thought for a stance to draw out his new found potential. It is worth noting that when he said he that he “grew” he didn't only refer to increasing the time limit of his tokitobashi. First he himself said that he "grew to get stronger" and then Goku who received the hit (by Hit) confirmed that too. And you also had Vegeta, Piccolo and Krillin commenting and being amazed by the fact too (referring it as powered up attack). Not only this but Hit allowed Goku to power up to Kaiokenx10 as he was confident he would “grow” to rise to that power level himself too and even wondered for how much he and Goku can keep increasing their power. So the Hit we saw at the end of the episode receiving punches from SSBKKx10 Goku is not weaker than SSB Goku anymore. He is higher than that. Plus he likely grew further anyway.

When did I ever say that KKx10 SSB Goku was weaker than SSB Goku?

? I think you misunderstood. speedster is saying Hit is no longer weaker than SSB Goku, but stronger.

[RandomGuy96]

So relaxed Freeza didn't have a Chi far above everyone else's on Namek before powering-up to reveal greater power? Or are you only talking about Super?

Talking about Super.

The statement is indicating that Boo is their only other chance at dealing with Freeza outside of having Goku and Vegeta there. It's similar to what Krillin said about Gotenks:
So "I guess that's all right, we've got Boo" doesn't necessarily mean everything is all right. He just happened to be their last option. Nothing in that statement is saying Mr. Boo is more powerful than Freeza at all.

Totally different situations. In that situation, not only is Krillin clearly stammering and unsure as he says it, but he's immediately contradicted by Piccolo. Here, we're never given any reason not to believe him.

Yes, it is. Krillin is saying that things will be fine as long as Buu is there. Meaning he can handle Freeza. You can argue all you want about how correct he is, but if you seriously can't admit that he's saying that, then there's no point to this conversation.

That's pretty weird, then. Gohan just ate a senzu bean, so he was pretty much at peak condition. His Super Saiyan wasn't just Super Saiyan, either; it was a means of temporarily bringing out his full-power. He can't draw out his full-power because he hasn't been training, so he had no choice but to temporarily turn Super Saiyan. Gohan only seemed to realize his lack of training prevented him from becoming Ultimate mid-way during the battle with Tagoma.

No, you're just making stuff up again. He explicitly says that he can't access his true power. He doesn't say "I can't put out my full power, actually just kidding I can, I can do that with just Super Saiyan now, even though I never mentioned this before and will never mention it again".

Episode 20 Minute: 16
Gohan: "I can't put out my full power... Is it because I slacked off on my training?"
Gohan: "I have no choice..."
Freeza: "A Super Saiyan?!"
Gohan: "The question is, how long can my body last at this point?"

Significance: More or less a confirmation that Gohan lost his Ultimate state, which he received in the Majin Boo arc. When he finds himself unable to tap into his full power, he resorts to Super Saiyan instead, which as we see is more than enough to handle Tagoma. Nothing to worry about, folks!

Where in any of this do you get the impression that he's as strong as he was at the end of the Buu arc? Especially after you admitted Buu was superior to him? Super Saiyan Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan. Super Saiyan Gohan is not as strong as Ultimate Gohan. I shouldn't even need to explain this.

Knowing this, Freeza would've already been superior to his Ultimate state regardless

There's nothing supporting that assertion at all. In fact the available evidence from the tournament arc and the EOZ suggests that even fourth form Freeza wouldn't surpass Ultimate Gohan. A weakened Frost is still stronger than the base saiyans (Vegeta has to go SS to beat him), yet not dimensions above Piccolo, who is still weaker than Buu per episode 30, probably by a lot if we use common sense. The Uub epilogue still happens and that depicts a Pure Buu level fighter as being stronger than Goku's base form, even though now Goku's base form is strong enough to smack around post-training 4th form Freeza.

There are many instances of Base Goku fighting at his best without doing a visible power-up. When Freeza walked around with a monstrous Chi on Namek, he still had to power-up to get to his highest level.

That's assuming he even "had" to power up, rather than that he was just flaring his aura/flexing because he was mad or wanted to show off. In that very same arc, we have Gohan and Krillin 'powering up' to fight Recoome, even though we know for a fact that they can access their full power without doing that.

Krillin's statement needs no contradiction because nothing was ever set in stone by it to begin with.

Basic story structure is at work here. Quoting the same logic Kaboom used:

No, it's common sense. You can't seem to grasp the fact that if a character says something, and you want to introduce doubt about it, then the so-called "burden of proof" that you keep talking about is on YOU. This isn't real life where people speak erroneously or just plain lie and nobody ever knows. This is a fictional story where things are purposely revealed and explained by the writers and very few things are ever left an open-ended mystery. If the writers tell us <Thing A> within a story, then <Thing A> is true until something else contradicts it.

Saying "maybe he was suppressed" is nothing more than baseless and pointless speculation until YOU produce something tangible to actually show that's the case, because nothing less than actual proof will counteract a direct line. My "Goku's a clone" and "Beerus was dreaming" bits were supposed to be extreme examples to demonstrate this truth, but you still don't get it.

If some guy told you that his mother's name was Janet, would you insist that he prove it? Would you tell him that unless he brings you to meet his mother face-to-face and show photo IDs, birth certificates, and DNA test results for both of them in order to prove that they are indeed a mother and son and that the mother's name is legally "Janet," then you don't believe him? That nobody can REALLY be sure his mother's name is Janet without definite, total proof?
...
Well this is just as absurd. You're insisting that Beerus' line, a face-to-face observation that remains completely uncontradicted, can't just be true or trusted unless it's proven true. That's ridiculous. It's an asinine waste of time for everyone involved.

I want to drive home how inane the "Beerus was wrong because Goku was suppressed" excuse is. We've never had to assume a character is suppressed, or been left wondering if a character is holding back or not. If they are, then as I mentioned earlier they're almost always revealed to be. Here's all the examples I can remember...
[YUGE list]
And so on and so forth. I'm sure there's others that I'm missing. But meanwhile, in Battle of Gods and Super...

You simply lack any evidence for your assertion.

The fact that Freeza was already considered superior to Gohan before he realized he couldn't draw out his full-power while fighting Tagoma says as much.

He already acknowledges before they even enter the battle that he's not even sure if he can turn Super Saiyan, and Krillin considers him inferior to Mr. Buu in that same scene. Being as strong as "Ultimate" Gohan was out of the question from the beginning. Next.

The fact that he was never in a situation where he had to exert himself or power-up says as much.

No it doesn't, you're using circular logic. "He never powered up, therefore he was suppressed", without giving a reason why he needed to power up to begin with rather than being at full power the whole time.

Why is he walking around at a specific level way above everyone else yet way below his supposed 'max', which is never seen and never implied to exist anywhere? From both an in and out of universe view, what the heck is the point of that? The problem with trying to use the Namek arc as support is that, when Freeza's power level changed, we were explicitly told so. There's nothing like that here.

BTW: on Namek, even before Freeza powered up, he was heavily implied to be above Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta, who we know from V-Jump to have battle powers of 200,000, 75,000, and 250,000 respectively. So even if we assumed that this is working exactly like the Namek arc, and that he was suppressed the whole time, he still wouldn't be suppressed by that much. Maybe around half of his full strength.

Chapter: 294 (DBZ 100), P2.2
Piccolo: “I feel an outrageously large ki far away…! Is th-this the monster called Freeza…!? There’s three huge ki close by…! That must be Gohan and the others…!”
[Piccolo's reaction to Freeza's ki is clearly more extreme than his reaction to the others: "outrageously large ki" + "a monster" vs "three huge ki"; also note that his immediate reaction isn't "oh wow, this supposed monster has ki even lower than that of Gohan, we're fine"].

Thing is, there are many instances of Base Goku fighting all-out without ever doing a power-up. When does first form Freeza ever do this?

When does he ever indicate that he can't? Everyone else who can change their power level can. Including Freeza himself in his fourth form. It seems that "powering up" is optional to begin with, as Goku is able to change his power level without a power-up yet still does so against Nappa.

Can you prove he was at full-power?

I don't need to. It's common sense. "If a character says something, and you want to introduce doubt about it, then the burden of proof is on you". Where's the evidence that he was suppressed?

Good thing this example does not apply.

Too bad it does. It's nearly an identical situation actually.

And proceeds to never power-up in Base throughout Z again.

He does it as late as the JSAT special. Anyway, this is irrelevant. How often he does it doesn't change the fact that he does it.

Temporary hope doesn't really mean much. In Gohan's mind, Freeza was beyond anything he was capable of. His capabilities far exceed Mr. Boo's.

Freeza was beyond anything he was capable of because he lost his Ultimate state and was reduced to Super Saiyan. He was never said to be above Buu. The only statement we have indirectly comparing them says the opposite, that he wouldn't have been a problem if Buu was there. There's also Gotenks' statement that he can beat down Freeza with SS, which again is never contradicted.

He also says YET which means they will be there sooner or later and buu can handle freeza atleast that long. And again , you are forgetting that buu can bounce back from much harder hits than his own, he can regenerate almost everything, he can one shot him with a candy beam etc, he can shape-shift (Like what he did vs M vegeta).
The only instances where candy beam was deflected or dodged were against other buu's and krillin didn't see them. Also, both of them knew perfectly about the candy beam, freeza doesn't.

None of this helps him against foes much stronger, in any of the fights he gets in. Krillin clearly wasn't talking about that.

So, first form freeza can be >= SS3 goku (Buu arc) and fat buu can handle him like he handled kid buu.
They also have gohan and gotenks (The same gotenks who is >> Super buu) to help against freeza.
Again, why didnt krillin be glad that they also have gotenks (who's >> Super buu >> fat buu) ??

Because they think that the boys will screw up their opportunity by doing something reckless. Which is exactly what happens. Plus, the only reaction shot we get from Krillin is him looking comically confused along with the others. Then we have 30 seconds of Gotenks bragging, then he defuses.

[Bullza]

Anyone wanna guess why

Base Gohan > Piccolo

but then

Frieza > Base Goku

[dbgtFO]

Anyone wanna guess why

Base Gohan > Piccolo

but then

Frieza > Base Goku

What's the problem?

[Khin]

Again, it wasn't just Tenshinhan freaking out. Gohan and Piccolo were freaking out before they even physically saw Freeza; right after Tenshinhan and Piccolo comment on how huge Freeza's ki is, Gohan makes this face

And again.That face doesn't neceessarilly mean Gohan is creeping out.Goku had the same reaction against 3rd Form Frost and they fought on par.

Why would they consider other forms before they even saw them and when they know they can just bumrush him because it takes a while for him to transform?

Again.Gohan only confirmed that he would bee useless against Freeza when he saw him in his first form.Which means he could possibly considering his other forms.

That doesn't make any sense. He can't be both stronger than Gohan and strong enough to easily kick his ass.

Again.Freeza was clearly implied to be suppressing his power when arrived.If he didn't,Goten and Trunks would've been attracted by his ki,instead,they were attracted by Tagoma's ki.So Freeza's suppressed when he arrived ---> Then powered up against Gohan [?] ---> Then suppressed his power again [?].Plus,Goku can't track Freeza and everyone's ki until Gohan went Super Saiyan again,which further supports the idea.

To add something.There's been some cases in the series where characters can tell wether someone is suppressed or not [Vegeta knows that Hit is suppressed],but unless they clearly check his body or fight him for a while,they wouldn't know how strong he really is at full power.[GInyu and Beerus for example]

[Khin]

I just noticed something while watching episode 37 again.

Context : Vegeta turns SSB and said that Cabba might be able to reach this level someday.
Cabba : "I could gain this much power ?"

Cabba's line seems to imply that he can sense God ki.Everyone in BoG including SS3 Goku can't sense god ki.So SS3 Goku < SS Cabba confirmed at least ?

[Bullza]

What's the problem?

Why is base Gohan several times stronger than base Goku?