The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It was the wind IMO. Gohan was weakened so I find it hard to believe that he was able to go SSJ2 right then and there.

Gohan hadn't any difficulty going SS2 against Broli or Kibito. He just did it. So, why would it be hard for him to go now?

Goku is missing a certain SSJ2 trait that being an intense stair.

Since he hadn't appeared yet in the manga, there could easily have some small mistakes, like in Dende's outfit in Movie 6.

SSJ2 eyes usually dont light up like that.

True, but like you said, they usually are not like that. They don't get completely "locked" in one shape.

Furthermore Broly had a hard time with SSJ2 Gohan in this movie.

Not really. Gohan's first punch didn't even move him or hurt him, and all of Gohan's hits could barely move Broli away. Broli's injuries came only from the lava, and Goku's punch from the previous movie.

Gohan is scene breaking a hold and even kicking Broly away in base.

He just sent Broli half step back, and he didn't really break his hold, Broli was holding him with one hand at that moment, opening his hold, because he was distracted by Videl.

Even if They did somehow ascend to SSJ2 that wouldnt really prove anything.

True but who is to say that this is the case here. Toriyama may have had Dende planned out at the time but to say he had SSJ2 planned out in the Buu saga, a saga in which he just made stuff up as he went. I find it hard to believe he had SSJ2 designed in advanced since this was during the Buu saga.

Toriyama was making stuff up as he went from the very beginning of the manga, not from Boo arc. He said it himself that he almost never had things planned from before. And besides, Toei knew about Goku becoming Super Saiyan and Dende becoming the new God of Earth before the manga showed us these stuff, so I wouldn't find it surprising to know about Goku becoming Super Saiyan 2 as well.

That Daizenshuu contradicts itself I think that this was even stated by Herms.

I've read almost everything from the Daizenshuu that talk about the in-universe stuff (thanks to Herms & TripleRach), and while it does have some contradictions, I guarantee you that the Daizenshuu are safe sources.

Umm dude what Barrier are you referring to? Are you referring to his large Ki attack or thing that was Broly attempted to put up but was broken?

I'm talking about the shield. When the Kamehameha broke Broli's attack, Broli surrounded himself with a Barrier, protecting himself and the Kamehameha pushed him to the Sun.

[Fox666]

That Daizenshuu contradicts itself I think that this was even stated by Herms.

The manga also contradicts itself, that would not be the reason to not take the Daizesnhuu in account.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku (Saiyan saga, Kaio-Ken only) Vs Kewi

An odd, random fight that came to mind.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SSj EoZ Goten and Trunks Vs. Bojack (Full power)

I expect Goten & Trunks to be at the same level as they were 10 years before, and since Bojack was SS2 tier, I doubt they would manage to beat him, so Bojack wins.

Goku (Saiyan saga, Kaio-Ken only) Vs Kewi

Kiwi was said to be equal to Saiyan arc Vegeta, so I expect a similar outcome like in the Goku vs Vegeta until their beam clash. I think that Goku will use there Kaio-ken x3 & x4 too much, and get very damaged, but also damaging Kiwi a lot. I expect Goku to use Taiyo-ken to blind Kiwi, and then make a Genki Dama, killing him. The Genki Dama should be weaker than the one he had to make against Oozaru Vegeta, so he should have enough time to make it. So, Goku wins.

[dario03]

Plus Gohan and Goku going SSJ2 at the last minute doesnt really prove that Broly is stronger than Cell. Broly could be anywhere between the Pre SSJ2 Kamehameha and the post SSJ2 Kamehameha. Broly was having trouble with SSJ2 Gohan if any of you remember. Broly couldnt keep Gohan in a hold and was kicked away by Base Gohan so I doubt Broly is stronger than Cell. Plus since I believe that Cell is a Star buster I find it hard to believe that Broly could beat him based on the fact he couldnt stop an attack that didnt destroy the Sun.

Well yeah Broly probably was between pre and post SS2 KHH since he was winning against pre and then lost against post. But if they were SS2 I would say he could be stronger than Cell or at least in the ball park of Cell since Goku SS2 is suppose to be stronger than kid Gohan SS2 and SS2 is only 2x SS1. And yes Gohan kicked Broly back in base but Broly was distracted and he barely moved at all, that kind of stuff has happened in the anime and maybe manga to (Krillin kicked first form Cell away and Piccolo kicked final form Freeza away). Plus the movie is inconsistent anyways, remember how Broly tanked a punch to the face like it was nothing right before Gohan broke out of that hold?

For the rest of the points I'll just copy and paste what I said from another thread of yours on a similar topic

The power of a energy attack doesn't seem to be the deciding factor on if it will destroy something or not. It seems that the attack needs to have the intent to destroy something or can somehow be contained. For instance Freeza was shown destroying planets but yet Majin Vegeta who is way way stronger self destructing on Earth some how doesn't cause any major damage to the Earth. And in GT SS4 Goku shoots Baby into the sun with a Kamehameha and it doesn't do anything to the sun.
And if power was the only deciding factor and Cell was capable of blowing up the sun then the family KHH probably could of done it even if they were only SS1. Vegeta says that Goku SS2 is stronger than Gohan when he fought Cell and SS2 is stated as being only 2x SS1. So I don't think its much of a stretch to say that a family KHH at SS1 could be around SS2 kid/teen Gohan in strength who was around Super Perfect Cell in strength.
And Broly being killed by the family KHH and the sun doesn't necessarily mean that he is weaker than Cell. He might be, or it could just be the KHH + the heat from the sun killed him. I'm not so sure DBZ characters can handle heat all that great. Freeza thought lava would kill Goku and Gohan even thought lava would kill Broly. So even if Cell could blow up the sun, he and characters around his strength might not be able to handle its heat or even have to be stronger than the sun to destory it (maybe Cell could some how disrupt it, its not like the sun is sentient and would fight back).
And personally I think disrupting the Sun is the only way he could destroy it or I think Cell was bluffing. Maybe he wasn't but the Sun is different than anything else that is destroyed in the manga so I'm not so sure he really knew if he could do it or not. Of course if we're talking about movies and anime then he most likely could since they decided that Broly could wipe out a galaxy just for the heck of it.

For the original question I always figured Gohan was SS2 and that Goku maybe was. Just makes more sense to me logically but I don't put to much thought into it any more since its a movie which makes even less sense than the show which already has enough holes.

[Pantalones]

Broly's death is actually shown in the movie. It wasn't the sun's heat or the Kamehameha that killed him--he just strained himself too much (by trying to keep that barrier up against both the Kamehamehas and the sun?) and his heart exploded.

As for heat... the important thing to notice is that Gohan thought lava could kill Broly, and it didn't. Instead, it didn't seem to actually hurt him one bit. There was a filler episode where Goku came awfully close to a sun without being nearly as affected by the heat as an ordinary human would've been, as well (and though it was filler... technically the movies fall into the same category, and it's a movie character we're talking about here after all.) Cooler also (barely) survived being launched into the sun even after being beaten up a bit beforehand, and he was nowhere near as strong as even the Androids, let alone someone like Cell or Broly. So it's not like heat (even heat as extreme as the sun's) is some kind of magical kill-all for Dragonball characters, and the idea that they somehow have little or no resistance to heat is completely ridiculous.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Broly's death is actually shown in the movie. It wasn't the sun's heat or the Kamehameha that killed him--he just strained himself too much (by trying to keep that barrier up against both the Kamehamehas and the sun?) and his heart exploded.

Interesting theory, but not a fact. Personally, I believe that it was both the heat of the Sun and the Kamehameha. If the Sun didn't play any role at Broli's death, I don't think Toei would bother to send him inside the Sun.

As for heat... the important thing to notice is that Gohan thought lava could kill Broly, and it didn't. Instead, it didn't seem to actually hurt him one bit.

It did hurt him, actually. He even had to raise a Barrier to protect himself.

Before getting into the lava (the big injury in his body is from Goku's punch):



After getting into the lava:

[dario03]

Broly's death is actually shown in the movie. It wasn't the sun's heat or the Kamehameha that killed him--he just strained himself too much (by trying to keep that barrier up against both the Kamehamehas and the sun?) and his heart exploded.

As for heat... the important thing to notice is that Gohan thought lava could kill Broly, and it didn't. Instead, it didn't seem to actually hurt him one bit. There was a filler episode where Goku came awfully close to a sun without being nearly as affected by the heat as an ordinary human would've been, as well (and though it was filler... technically the movies fall into the same category, and it's a movie character we're talking about here after all.) Cooler also (barely) survived being launched into the sun even after being beaten up a bit beforehand, and he was nowhere near as strong as even the Androids, let alone someone like Cell or Broly. So it's not like heat (even heat as extreme as the sun's) is some kind of magical kill-all for Dragonball characters, and the idea that they somehow have little or no resistance to heat is completely ridiculous.

Broly survived the lava due to a shield, same kind of shield that caused to much strain and made his heart explode when he was launched into the sun by the KHH. Goku was wearing a space suit in the filler episode. Cooler isn't a Saiyan or Human.

[Fox666]

I don't think Broli's heart "exploded due to stress" or whatsoever. I think his body was just being destroyed little by little.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It was the wind IMO. Gohan was weakened so I find it hard to believe that he was able to go SSJ2 right then and there.

Gohan hadn't any difficulty going SS2 against Broli or Kibito. He just did it. So, why would it be hard for him to go now?

He couldnt do it against Dabura both times because he lacked anger. It could be argued that he was still angry at Spopocitch and used his anger at him to go SSJ2. He also seemed agitated that he was gonna have to reveal himself as the golden warrior infront of everyone.

Goku is missing a certain SSJ2 trait that being an intense stair.

Since he hadn't appeared yet in the manga, there could easily have some small mistakes, like in Dende's outfit in Movie 6.

They would still need a design and from the looks of things they dont get the SSJ2 death stare wrong on any character.

SSJ2 eyes usually dont light up like that.

True, but like you said, they usually are not like that. They don't get completely "locked" in one shape.

True but they should be smaller.

Furthermore Broly had a hard time with SSJ2 Gohan in this movie.

Not really. Gohan's first punch didn't even move him or hurt him, and all of Gohan's hits could barely move Broli away. Broli's injuries came only from the lava, and Goku's punch from the previous movie.

Umm no... Broly is unable to keep him in a hold. If Broly was that much stronger than Gohan he could have kept it. Look at him he is definately trying. Furthermore he annoyed Broly and it looked like it hurt to me.

Gohan is scene breaking a hold and even kicking Broly away in base.

He just sent Broli half step back, and he didn't really break his hold, Broli was holding him with one hand at that moment, opening his hold, because he was distracted by Videl.

No in the more or less beginning of the fight Gohan breaks out of his hold and knees him in the face.

Even if They did somehow ascend to SSJ2 that wouldnt really prove anything.

True but who is to say that this is the case here. Toriyama may have had Dende planned out at the time but to say he had SSJ2 planned out in the Buu saga, a saga in which he just made stuff up as he went. I find it hard to believe he had SSJ2 designed in advanced since this was during the Buu saga.

Toriyama was making stuff up as he went from the very beginning of the manga, not from Boo arc. He said it himself that he almost never had things planned from before. And besides, Toei knew about Goku becoming Super Saiyan and Dende becoming the new God of Earth before the manga showed us these stuff, so I wouldn't find it surprising to know about Goku becoming Super Saiyan 2 as well.

The Android arc seemed a lot more planned out. The Buu arc was very spotanious if I recall.

That Daizenshuu contradicts itself I think that this was even stated by Herms.

I've read almost everything from the Daizenshuu that talk about the in-universe stuff (thanks to Herms & TripleRach), and while it does have some contradictions, I guarantee you that the Daizenshuu are safe sources.

I'm aware that the Daiz are usually safe but that one seems contradictory and again if I recall it was stated by Herms to be contradictory

Umm dude what Barrier are you referring to? Are you referring to his large Ki attack or thing that was Broly attempted to put up but was broken?

I'm talking about the shield. When the Kamehameha broke Broli's attack, Broli surrounded himself with a Barrier, protecting himself and the Kamehameha pushed him to the Sun.

Umm the barrier broke when the Kamehameha hit him. Secondly the barrier has to be twice as strong as the opponents attack to work. I highly highly highly doubt Broly was twice as strong as the Family Kamehameha when he barely managed SSJ2 Gohan alone.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Umm the barrier broke when the Kamehameha hit him.

No, it didn't. Or at least we didn't see the Barrier getting broken, that's up to you to decide for yourself. Again, I'm not talking about Broli's ki blast, I'm talking about this:



We never saw this getting broken.

Secondly the barrier has to be twice as strong as the opponents attack to work. I highly highly highly doubt Broly was twice as strong as the Family Kamehameha

He doesn't have to be twice stronger than the combined Kamehameha. Ki techniques are often more powerful than the user. Just compare Goku's battle power with his Kamehameha or Piccolo's battle power with his Makankosappo against Raditz.

he barely managed SSJ2 Gohan alone.

But Broli didn't barely managed to fight Gohan. Gohan couldn't even hurt Broli. He literally couldn't do shit with his strength. No punch or kick from SS2 Gohan damaged or hurt Broli to the least. I think you have to re-watch the fight.

[Pantalones]

Huh, I'm not sure how I missed that second explosion of blood (I guess that green stuff coming out in massive amounts is supposed to be blood, anyway) from Broly's back after the initial heart-explodes part... must have just been a while since I've seen the movie, or it happens quickly enough that it's possible to just miss it if you haven't watched the movie very many times.

I'm really not sure what would make the guy's body randomly bust open at several points and spew green blood everywhere like that, though... Kamehamehas and the sun both generally burn up/disintegrate their victims. Just Broly being really weird again, I guess (he did explode after Goku's punch in the first movie, after all...)

[Fox666]

Well, it is not so different from the first movie:

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm the barrier broke when the Kamehameha hit him.

No, it didn't. Or at least we didn't see the Barrier getting broken, that's up to you to decide for yourself. Again, I'm not talking about Broli's ki blast, I'm talking about this:



We never saw this getting broken.

I wasnt referring to that barrier.

Secondly the barrier has to be twice as strong as the opponents attack to work. I highly highly highly doubt Broly was twice as strong as the Family Kamehameha

He doesn't have to be twice stronger than the combined Kamehameha. Ki techniques are often more powerful than the user. Just compare Goku's battle power with his Kamehameha or Piccolo's battle power with his Makankosappo against Raditz.

Umm yes it does you just showed me that thing on the Barrier technique and it stated that the user has to be twice as strong as the opponent to repel physical and Ki attacks. I'm sorry but what? a persons power level cant be higher than his power level makes no sense. Piccolo's Mankankosappo is using a vast amount of energy he isnt increasing the amount of Ki he has that again makes no sense.

he barely managed SSJ2 Gohan alone.

But Broli didn't barely managed to fight Gohan. Gohan couldn't even hurt Broli. He literally couldn't do shit with his strength. No punch or kick from SS2 Gohan damaged or hurt Broli to the least. I think you have to re-watch the fight.

You are mistaken he managed to hurt him once from my view point. That knee to the face wasnt exactly comfortable. Furthermore Broly couldnt keep him in that hold now could he? I've watched the fight plenty of times.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Umm yes it does you just showed me that thing on the Barrier technique and it stated that the user has to be twice as strong as the opponent to repel physical and Ki attacks.

I never said that for a Barrier to work, the user has to be twice as strong as the attack. I said the user has to emit twice more ki than the attack.

I'm sorry but what? a persons power level cant be higher than his power level makes no sense. Piccolo's Mankankosappo is using a vast amount of energy he isnt increasing the amount of Ki he has that again makes no sense.

In the battle with Raditz, Goku's battle power was 416, while his Kamehameha was over 924. Piccolo's battle power was 408, while his first Makankosappo was 1330, and his second was even stronger. These numbers are from the manga.
Another example is in the Piccolo vs #17 fight. Piccolo & #17 were equals in terms of power. However, when Piccolo fired his Gekiretsu Kodan, #17 would probably die from that attack, so he used a Barrier to survive.
So, it is Piccolo = #17 < Piccolo's Gekiretsu Kodan < #17's Barrier.

You are mistaken he managed to hurt him once from my view point. That knee to the face wasnt exactly comfortable. Furthermore Broly couldnt keep him in that hold now could he? I've watched the fight plenty of times.

Gohan breaking out of a hold and sending him one step away doesn't mean anything. Gohan never injured Broli, while Broli cause SS2 Gohan so much damage that left Gohan unconscious, in an extremely short fight.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm yes it does you just showed me that thing on the Barrier technique and it stated that the user has to be twice as strong as the opponent to repel physical and Ki attacks.

I never said that for a Barrier to work, the user has to be twice as strong as the attack. I said the user has to emit twice more ki than the attack.

I know you cant just double the amount of Ki you have you simply double the amount you are displaying.

I'm sorry but what? a persons power level cant be higher than his power level makes no sense. Piccolo's Mankankosappo is using a vast amount of energy he isnt increasing the amount of Ki he has that again makes no sense.

In the battle with Raditz, Goku's battle power was 416, while his Kamehameha was over 924. Piccolo's battle power was 408, while his first Makankosappo was 1330, and his second was even stronger. These numbers are from the manga.
I'm well aware but that is just more of there full power =/. They dont simply amplify the maximum amount of Ki they have.
Another example is in the Piccolo vs #17 fight. Piccolo & #17 were equals in terms of power. However, when Piccolo fired his Gekiretsu Kodan, #17 would probably die from that attack, so he used a Barrier to survive.
So, it is Piccolo = #17 < Piccolo's Gekiretsu Kodan < #17's Barrier.

This is not the case for 17. The post you showed me also said that the the user is always emitting Ki meaning he has to be twice as strong as the opponent. 17 has an endless energy supply so he doesnt have to have double the Ki Piccolo has.

You are mistaken he managed to hurt him once from my view point. That knee to the face wasnt exactly comfortable. Furthermore Broly couldnt keep him in that hold now could he? I've watched the fight plenty of times.

Gohan breaking out of a hold and sending him one step away doesn't mean anything. Gohan never injured Broli, while Broli cause SS2 Gohan so much damage that left Gohan unconscious, in an extremely short fight.

I think you are you thinking of a different hold. Remember when Broly had both Gohans arms and was kneeing him in the back trying to split Gohan in half, more or less? Gohan managed to overpower that hold and knee Broly in the face. Broly didnt look too happy =/. If it hadnt hurt him he would have laughed it off and continued to chase Gohan with laughter. Thats what Broly does but he didnt do it here. Here Ill send you a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEbJg7N4yQk
Skip to 1:07. Gohan overpowers Broly's hold and proceeds to knee Broly in the face to Broly's displeasure.

[mysticboy]

Jenemba vs. Rildo

[TheMightyOzaru]

Jenemba vs. Rildo

I would imagine Janemba if its just Rildo but if its Hyper Meta Rildo then Janemba is f***ed IMO. Actually now that I think about it Rildo can just turn Janemba into metal so yeah Rildo's got this.

[Strife1]

Okay guys, get ready for an influx of Versus battles
Ssjg3 Trunks Vs. Lssj Broly
#16 w/ bomb Vs. Cell (basically could he have killed Cell w/ it)
Dr. Wheelo Vs. Vegeta (Reccome fight)
Goku Ssj Vs. Gohan Ssj During Cell tournament (No rage boost, no "Goku wins because of toei" Straight fight)
Imperfect cell who absorbed everyone on earth, excluding the androids and the Z-fighters, Vs. Perfect cell or Super Perfect Cell
Yakon Vs. Frieza(100%)
Pui Pui Vs. Ginyu
Yakon Vs. Kibito
Piccolo Vs. Yakon
Imperfect Cell Vs. 16 (No bomb) Who would have won the fight if no androids were absorbed?
Goku Ssj Buu saga Vs. Cell or Dabra
Base Gotenks Vs Frieza(100%)
Ssjg3 Trunks Vs Gotenks Ssj (If they have the same speed)
Ssj(2) Gogeta Vs. Ultimate Gohan
Android 13 Vs. Android 17
Androids 14 & 15 Vs. Androids 19 & 20
Ssj Vegeta & Ssj Goku(during 19 & 20 fight no virus) Vs. Future Androids 17 & 18
Super Android 13 Vs. Meta Cooler
Cooler, normal state Vs. Mecha Frieza
Ssj Trunkten Vs. Ssj3 Gogeta
Pilaf Vs. Babidi In a contest of fighting skills, no magic...or whatever Pilaf has.
Final Form Cooler Vs. Android 18
Kid Buu Vs. Hirudegarn
Uub EoZ Vs. Piccolo EoZ
Pan Eoz Vs. Krillin Eoz
KibitoKai Vs. Ssj(2) Goku Buu Saga
South Supreme Kai Vs. Ssj2 Goku
Kid Vegeta Vs. Krillin (Saiyan Arc)
Piccolo Post Rosat Vs. Second form Cell
Pikkon Vs. Vegeta Eoz (Ssj-Ssj2)
Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Krillin Buu Saga Vs. Olibu

[VegettoEX]

I think that's a little much, particularly without anything to add on your own. I'd prefer to see a focused discussion, rather than endless lists tossed out there.