Unpopular DB opinions

[Hit!!]

I've been rewatching the original Dragon Ball again lately, and the more i watch it, the more i realize that Toriyama very possibly planned Goku to be an alien from the very beginning of Dragon Ball. The amount of references about him not being from earth in Dragon Ball are too much to ignore.

Also, Goku is much much more of an idiot in Dragon Ball than in DBS, but his childish personality is exactly the same. Goku has had absolutely no character development whatsoever since the very beginning of Dragon Ball. You could say he did develop somewhat when he turned SSJ for the first time in the Freeza arc, but his personality continues being exactly the same.

[nickzambuto]

I've been rewatching the original Dragon Ball again lately, and the more i watch it, the more i realize that Toriyama very possibly planned Goku to be an alien from the very beginning of Dragon Ball. The amount of references about him not being from earth in Dragon Ball are too much to ignore.

Also, Goku is much much more of an idiot in Dragon Ball than in DBS, but his childish personality is exactly the same. Goku has had absolutely no character development whatsoever since the very beginning of Dragon Ball. You could say he did develop somewhat when he turned SSJ for the first time in the Freeza arc, but his personality continues being exactly the same.

You don't need a complete personality shift to constitute character development. Vegeta has the exact same attitude nowadays that he did in the Saiyans arc, with only his pride and sadism toned down. People change in their views and their morals and their knowledge, but a complete personality overhaul is not something that's common.

Goku's character development comes in the lessons taught to him by Muten Roshi of never losing your ambition because there's always an even higher goal to strive towards. Look at the other Saiyans, consumed with pride and self-satisfaction, none of them train at all as a result, and Goku very easily could have ended up just like them and missed out on all the amazing things he's accomplished had he won the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai and been declared the strongest person under Heaven at the age of 12. This desire to grow stronger and surpass those above him was strengthened during the RRA arc when he met Arale, whose power shocked him, and Taopaipai, who offered Goku his first crushing defeat. Goku's decision to climb Karin Tower and expand his skills was the culmination of these events, if not for them he likely would have grown arrogant and reacted to defeat with denial and rage like the other Saiyans do. This is called character development. After all, when we're first introduced to Goku, he didn't train intensely. He seemed totally content.

Reuniting with his Grandfather was also a major moment for Goku. He had originally set off on his journey just to recover the four star ball, a mere keepsake of his Grandpa, but one that was precious to him. He found it at Karin Tower and could have ended his journey right there, he had accomplished his goal. Instead, he selflessly chose to sacrifice his keepsake for Upa's sake, and was thus rewarded by reuniting with his Grandpa in the flesh. Goku wouldn't have ever gone to Baba's Tournament had he not decided to help Upa. The first three arcs set up and explain Goku's two core characteristics - his love for fighting and his love for adventure. Since we were all introduced to Z first when Goku already possessed these traits in their prime, we tend to think of them as default aspects of Goku's character, but no, Toriyama clearly wrote an origin for them. Again, in the first chapter, Goku wasn't seeking adventure alone. He was content living in his house. It was through these events that he learned to love adventure for all of its rewards. That's character development.

He develops further in the Demon arc but I need to rewatch that before I can articulate my thoughts (I'm currently on the 22nd Budokai). I do know that he had major development across the Saiyans - Cyborgs arcs though, learning groundbreaking information about his heritage, initially rejecting the Saiyans and calling himself an Earthling, only to later learn to accept them and himself and once again be rewarded as a result (with power and Freeza's defeat, which he did to avenge his race). In the Cyborgs arc, Son Goku reaches his pinnacle, the full power of a Super Saiyan, the culmination of everything we've seen so far, he's finally at his peak. And he fails. Cell was a wall he couldn't reach. Which is why he passed the mantle onto Gohan. That's absolutely development of a character. Goku is in a radically different place than he was before at the start of almost every arc. Throughout the series he grows more mature, more wise, but never loses his lightheartedness. In a way that itself is development, since the Super Saiyan is supposed to be a warrior of terrible violence and rage and evil, but he conquered that by sparing Freeza, he retained himself, and even though he accepted his heritage, that doesn't mean he agreed with it or liked it. He simply accepted the facts of who he was. That's vital development when you reveal that a character is an alien from a race of beings who are his exact opposite in every way.

His development continues in BoG and RF where the weaknesses that his personality has subtley possessed this whole time were finally put on display in-universe, and he begins down the path of overcoming them, meaning he still has a long way to go before reaching his peak after all.

[Alruneia]

Freeza did nothing wrong.

Planet Namek didn't happen, but it should've.

[ABED]

Why do you care so much about what people like ? It doesn't matter, lol.

In case you didn't notice, it's a discussion about unpopular opinions. We discuss and challenge them for the sake of the conversation. No one is deeply invested in what everyone else's preference is, that's just the nature of the thread.

It's such a silly thing to do. "Oh you like this performance ? Nope, you're wrong, his performance sucks. ? I mean, really ? Also, it's a forum about Dragon Ball, not a deep discussion of the mind.

You may think so, but it's the nature of the forum to disagree and discuss. It's point and counter point, and that discussion was in no way deep.

[nickzambuto]

Freeza did nothing wrong.

lmao

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

There´s no need for DRAGON BALL to have Goku pass the torch to a new gen of characters.

[ABED]

There´s no need for DRAGON BALL to have Goku pass the torch to a new gen of characters.

Amen! Even if it does happen, let it be the coda.

[PelicanDynasty]

General Blue is probably my favorite villain. The way he shifts from tough as hell to wimp and back and forth is interesting to me. Not to mention that guy was persistent, and was one of the only villains I remember that acknowledged the fact that Goku was no joke. Very memorable death also, even if he didn't go out in glory.

[Sailor Haumea]

I actually like Garlic Jr. as a character.

[Anime Kitten]

I actually like Garlic Jr. as a character.

Amen to this. His filler arc is one of my favorites.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

There´s no need for DRAGON BALL to have Goku pass the torch to a new gen of characters.

Agreed, but I'm such a sucker for that kind of thing, I can't help but want it anyway.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Superman won the rap battle

[VDenter]

It feels like the Android arc we could have gotten in DB if Toriyama was not forced to change it halfway through. At least something similar to it.

It does not have plot holes that plagued the Cell arc.

What was changed in the Cell arc? His choice of villain? Thank God they made him change it from 19 and 20 and thankfully they didn't let him stay with the second form.

What plot holes besides the ones that come from time travel stories are you referring to? If it's just because of time travel, that's always going to create plot holes.

Everything that has anything to do with The Room of Spirit and Time Is one thing that springs to mind for example.

As you mentioned time travel caused plot holes are present in allot of time traveling story's. The Cell arc however is the only arc in Dragonball that has time travel the other 90% of the Manga does not so this arc as a result feels like you have to jump through allot more hoops to justify things that happen in the arc much more so than in any other arc in Dragonball.

Personally i always thought 17 and 18 had potential to be way more interesting villains than yet another evil for the sake of being evil monster that Cell turned out to be. The second he gets introduced the story line takes a massive nose dive. It even makes you question why characters like 16 were introduced if they were going to be rendered pointless almost immediately. Cell is probably the worst villain in the series with the exception of Majin Buu.

Also having the Dragon balls disappear after Kami and Piccolo fuse makes no sense either.

[ABED]

After Freeza, two bratty teens is a huge step down. Their design is mundane in comparison to any other big bad, and Cell doesn't take a big nosedive until either he reaches his second form or he delivers that massive exposition dump. I see your point about Cell, but the Cyborgs are a lot less interesting as the villains. For the most part, I like how they were used. It added an air of mystery in the arc that was unfortunately dissipated way too quickly. 16 was introduced and he wasn't rendered pointless, ultimately he has a huge impact on the story. I'm ambivalent to his use in the story. I'm glad he has an impact, but I don't think it was as dramatically satisfying as it would be if Cell had killed someone Gohan had a relationship with.

As you mentioned time travel caused plot holes are present in allot of time traveling story's. The Cell arc however is the only arc in Dragonball that has time travel the other 90% of the Manga does not so this arc as a result feels like you have to jump through allot more hoops to justify things that happen in the arc much more so than in any other arc in Dragonball.

Would you mind being specific?

I've always taken the DB's becoming innert because Kami isn't the base.

[VDenter]

After Freeza, two bratty teens is a huge step down. Their design is mundane in comparison to any other big bad, and Cell doesn't take a big nosedive until either he reaches his second form or he delivers that massive exposition dump. I see your point about Cell, but the Cyborgs are a lot less interesting as the villains. For the most part, I like how they were used. It added an air of mystery in the arc that was unfortunately dissipated way too quickly. 16 was introduced and he wasn't rendered pointless, ultimately he has a huge impact on the story. I'm ambivalent to his use in the story. I'm glad he has an impact, but I don't think it was as dramatically satisfying as it would be if Cell had killed someone Gohan had a relationship with.

As you mentioned time travel caused plot holes are present in allot of time traveling story's. The Cell arc however is the only arc in Dragonball that has time travel the other 90% of the Manga does not so this arc as a result feels like you have to jump through allot more hoops to justify things that happen in the arc much more so than in any other arc in Dragonball.

Would you mind being specific?

I've always taken the DB's becoming innert because Kami isn't the base.

I kind of like their design, cell sort of turns into Freeza 2.0 when he reaches his perfect form and that to me is much more mundane. More to the point however is that the Cyborgs were the main reason why Future Trunks timeline gets messed up before Cell shows up they were the main villains and much more sinister than Cell kind of like Goku Black in the current Super arc. I mean they dont just blow up the planet they spend years hunting down people and kill them they were also the reason most of the main characters die in the Future timeline its not Cell its the cyborgs but nothing comes out of it. I agree with you that they are not as interesting as they potentially could have been probably because Toriyama did not use them effectively and shifted gears as soon as the arc started.

Also Kami and Piccolo are just two halves of the same being once they merge its not like one dies. Even if that is a bit of stretch there is no reason why Piccolo should not know how to create the dragon balls if he merged with Kami at the very least if the Dragonballs had to disappear regardless weather or not Kami is the base. Not only that but them merging turned out to be completely unnecessary anyway since piccolo fails to stop Cell. Really all he does managed to do is lure Cell directly to the Cyborgs, boy that sure was a great trade off for the Dragonballs yep it suuuure was.... This whole Piccolo plot felt like a weak excuse just so there would be a bigger sense of thereat in the arc.

The air of mystery that you mentioned would be nice but the way its handled leaves allot to be desired. The second any mystery is presented its almost immediately resolved. Like why is there a second time machine? Oh that will be explained almost immediately the story does not even build a mystery on who cell is it basically gives you a answer the second he is introduced. Probably since Toriyama never intended for this switch up initially. The other questions that get raised in this arc are actually worse since they dont get resolved. I already mentioned The Room of Spirit and Time and the Dragonballs so i wont go there again but here are a couple more like...

Why did the Cyborgs change in the presents?
Why are not 17 and 18 as evil as they are in the future?
Why does Gokus heart sickness kick in much later in the present than it does in the future?
Why did nobody in the future find New Namek and use the dragon balls to wish everybody back?

Why do 16 and 19 exist in the present but not in the future?
If you find some reason as to why Trunks could not find New Namek or whatever could he not at least take the Dragonballs from the present to the future? to wish anybody back?

Why dont any of the dead main characters contact Gohan or Trunks in the future or anybody else form the after life through King Kai like they did on Namek during the Freeza arc.
Why do the Main characters act retarded through this whole arc?
How can Gohan possibly match Cell at this point in time when he just achieved Super Saiyan status?

(I dont usually care for power level debates but this is ridiculous. Neither does the story not build up to it in any way before the Cell games)

Ugh,the list goes on and on and that is probably not even half of it. Now granted every arc in Dragonball has had its issues but never to this extent.(Not counting GT)
Narrative coherence is almost lost in this entire arc. The answer to all these questions is probably because Toriyama wrote himself into a corner and needed a quick fix or some convenient plot device so he just wrote some stuff no mater how nonsensical it might be.

This is one of the rare instances where i feel bad for DBS for all the complaints this current arc gets it honestly does not even come close to approaching the level of disappointment the Cell arc suffers from for me.
At least in DBS they are trying to build a mystery around the current arc and try to explain stuff. Not just tack on the mystery element half way through the arc while also probably changing the direction of the arc and come up with tons of plot holes and no real answers in the process. Granted the arc is not yet done but honestly there is almost no possible way it can screw up this badly at this point.

Also i dont necessarily mind if a story switches up villains The Red Ribbon Army arc or The Saiyan arc do it as well its just the execution here felt completely flat.

[Sailor Haumea]

16 exists in the future.

The fact Lapis and Lazuli were numbered 17 and 18, rather than 16 and 17, in that timeline proves an Android 16 was created by Dr. Gero.

Considering flashbacks show Gero in Cell's timeline was also an android, my guess is that 19 exists in the other timelines (because 19 was initially created to transfer Gero's brain to his new android body), but was destroyed, be it by Vegeta or Piccolo. Trunks didn't know they existed because he was an infant.

[8000 Saiyan]

His performances are TERRIBLE. His cadence and delivery is so unnatural. It feels like he's trying to act goofy. Even Schemmel's season 3 work was preferable. That's a very unpopular opinion, but one I stand by because I disliked when he took over in 97 and my opinion hasn't changed even nearly 20 years later.

We already get it, you hate Kelamis and hate the fact that people like his Goku. I'll agree that his work in the series, but hey, he could have improved.

[ABED]

His performances are TERRIBLE. His cadence and delivery is so unnatural. It feels like he's trying to act goofy. Even Schemmel's season 3 work was preferable. That's a very unpopular opinion, but one I stand by because I disliked when he took over in 97 and my opinion hasn't changed even nearly 20 years later.

We already get it, you hate Kelamis and hate the fact that people like his Goku. I'll agree that his work in the series, but hey, he could have improved.

Whether he could have is irrelevant to judging his actual work.

VDenter, the vast majority of your "plot holes" aren't plotholes. They are a butterfly effect. Cell is supposed to look like Freeza. He's made up of the cells of the strongest warriors, hence the name.

And again, I said, the plot holes as a result of timetravel don't count. Every single timetravel story has them. Timetravel by its nature is contradictory.

"Why don't they bring this guy or this thing, etc. to the future?" Fat load of good that will do both timelines given that anything they do in the past won't help Trunks's timeline and even if they did bring a bunch of fighters to the future, there's still the issue of being able to defeat the cyborgs, which Goku likely couldn't do until he trained in the Room of Spirit and Time.

Nothing Toriyama could've done could've made the cyborgs more interesting than they were. They weren't sinister big bads. They were teens too strong for their own good. I'll take the more interesting design over the brats.

[Hellspawn28]

I like Videl with short hair in the Buu saga more than her long hair design.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I like Videl with short hair in the Buu saga more than her long hair design.

I'm sure you can take a hint as to which Videl is my favorite, and long-haired Videl is my second choice. Regular short-haired Videl has always been off-putting for me.