Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:19 am

Only Kaioken and Freeza percentages are linear everything else isn't. Fusion multipliers are exponential when scaling stats so that's not a valid proof. The guidebook didn't mention a negative energy spread so why would you assume that? Galaxy >>>>>>>>>> solar system.

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:43 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:Only Kaioken and Freeza percentages are linear everything else isn't. Fusion multipliers are exponential when scaling stats so that's not a valid proof.

I don't think you understand how an exponential scale works. In early Dragonball Master Roshi had a power level that was a few hundred times that of an average human but he could destroy the moon which would require billions of times the energy. That would be an example of exponential because the power level and actual power weren't proportionate. SSJ had a 50x higher power level than base and was said to be 50x stronger so that's the very definition of linear. Same with Oozaru that was a 10x multiplier that equaled 10x the strength. The guidebook said Gogeta was dozens of times stronger so they were referring to his actual strength not his power level. When people say power levels are exponential they are referring to the actual power level that then translates into some huge disproportionate strength increase. If they're referring to the actual strength like they did with SSJ or Oozaru then that's exactly how much it went up by.

The guidebook didn't mention a negative energy spread so why would you assume that? Galaxy >>>>>>>>>> solar system.

This is what the GT Perfect Files said about Syn
syn shenron/ishinlon(text red)

is endowed with an extraordinary destructive force that will cause to destruction of the galaxy.

omega shenron/super ishinlon:

its strength is 10x more potent standard that! in this state can use the skills of all evil dragons, can also cast a sphere of energy, which is negative energy condensed of all the Dragon Balls!

It says he could cause destruction to the galaxy but doesn't say how he will do it. At the end it says Omega Shenron was 10x stronger than Syn so that would fit with what they said about Gogeta.
SSJ4 Gogeta (+12x normal SSJ4) > Omega (10x Syn) > SSJ4 Goku + energy of other Saiyans > Syn > normal SSJ4 Goku.
As you can see there's no way SSJ4 Goku could get trillions of times stronger just from absorbing the energy of three weaker Saiyans unless you want to ignore the strength increases they gave for Gogeta and Omega.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:06 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:Only Kaioken and Freeza percentages are linear everything else isn't. Fusion multipliers are exponential when scaling stats so that's not a valid proof. The guidebook didn't mention a negative energy spread so why would you assume that? Galaxy >>>>>>>>>> solar system.

Any fusion multipliers are made up, and thus cannot be used to prove anything.

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:06 pm

[The strongest evil dragon] is endowed with an extraordinary destructive force that will cause to destruction of the galaxy.

That reminds me of Broly and he died inside the sun.

Interestingly, the Super Evil Dragon used a trick move to escape from a fire cage that was supposed to be... very hot. Though, one can argue that absorbing the 4-star dragon ball would grant him immunity to high temperatures.

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:45 pm

I know what exponential means in terms of power level. SSJ doesn't boost stats linearly only Kaioken does. Neither does fusion. There's no reason to assume it means a negative energy spread when only Omega does that.

@hugo boss technically them even being hurt by high temperatures is Plot Induced Stupidity. Heat is energy, energy is heat. Being on the sun's surface only requires ~city level durability. Gravity training is also pis.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:56 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:I know what exponential means in terms of power level. SSJ doesn't boost stats linearly only Kaioken does. Neither does fusion. There's no reason to assume it means a negative energy spread when only Omega does that.

@hugo boss technically them even being hurt by high temperatures is Plot Induced Stupidity. Heat is energy, energy is heat. Being on the sun's surface only requires ~city level durability. Gravity training is also pis.

You do realize that not all energy is equal, right? I can take a punch to the face, which is kinetic energy, but if someone were to light a fire on my face it would do a totally different kind of damage.

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:32 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:I know what exponential means in terms of power level. SSJ doesn't boost stats linearly only Kaioken does. Neither does fusion. There's no reason to assume it means a negative energy spread when only Omega does that.

Could you provide evidence that SSJ isn't linear? If it's 50x the power level and it makes you 50x stronger then that's about as linear as you can get.
Since you didn't reply to the rest of my post am I to assume you agreed with it? I like to have some conclusion to a debate and not leave it hanging.

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:58 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:You do realize that not all energy is equal, right? I can take a punch to the face, which is kinetic energy, but if someone were to light a fire on my face it would do a totally different kind of damage.

Heat is kinetic.

@skar it doesn't literally make Goku 50x stronger otherwise their power levels would have to skyrocket in order to go first form Freeza's large planet buster to kid Buu's small star buster. And what part did I not reply to

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:22 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:You do realize that not all energy is equal, right? I can take a punch to the face, which is kinetic energy, but if someone were to light a fire on my face it would do a totally different kind of damage.
Heat is kinetic.

You are totally missing the point. You cannot equate two totally different forms of energy, because they have vastly different effects. Punching someone in the face has a totally different outcome than burning their face has a totally different outcome than exposing their face to radiation has a totally different outcome that shocking their face. Just because I can take a punch to the face doesn't mean I can survive my face being set on fire.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:50 pm

@RandomGuy96

Freeza > Base Saiyans list.

Spoiler:

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:04 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:it doesn't literally make Goku 50x stronger otherwise their power levels would have to skyrocket in order to go first form Freeza's large planet buster to kid Buu's small star buster. And what part did I not reply to

The power level scales were inconsistent throughout the manga so that isn't a good excuse to ignore everything said about SSJ that made it clear it was linear. 50% Frieza was 60 million and 100% was 120 million so that was 2x the power level and 2x the actual power. Goku went from 3 million in base to 150 million in SSJ so that was 50x the power level and 50x the actual power. It wouldn't make any sense for only the SSJ boost to be exponential but Frieza's percentages were linear unless you think SSJ Goku was millions or billions of times stronger than 100% Frieza.

You didn't reply to the part about Gogeta being dozens of times stronger than a SSJ4 and Omega being 10x stronger than Syn. If you were to assume Syn could destroy a galaxy by his negative energy spreading then it fits with these power increases for Gogeta and Omega and it fits with what they said about Omega destroying the universe with his negative energy spreading. If you were to assume that Syn could one-shot a galaxy then you would have to ignore the numbers they gave for Gogeta and Omega.

xmysticgohanx · Post by **xmysticgohanx** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:49 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
xmysticgohanx wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:You do realize that not all energy is equal, right? I can take a punch to the face, which is kinetic energy, but if someone were to light a fire on my face it would do a totally different kind of damage.
Heat is kinetic.
You are totally missing the point. You cannot equate two totally different forms of energy, because they have vastly different effects. Punching someone in the face has a totally different outcome than burning their face has a totally different outcome than exposing their face to radiation has a totally different outcome that shocking their face. Just because I can take a punch to the face doesn't mean I can survive my face being set on fire.

That's only because a regular nonfiction, real life human punch =/= an average flame. The sun's surface temperature = the same amount of joules a punch that can destroy a city block (might've been city) does. Which is nothing to DBZ characters who are moon (Venus level from the obd calc) at the beginning of the series.

@skar it fits regardless. Syn being galaxy level doesn't affect Omega only being universal through a negative energy spread. Omega is 10x stronger than a galaxy buster (not a linear boost but just for you I'm going to assume he is). That's not universal. Omega would have to be a ridiculous amount of times stronger than Syn to not need the negative energy spread.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:36 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote: That's only because a regular nonfiction, real life human punch =/= an average flame. The sun's surface temperature = the same amount of joules a punch that can destroy a city block (might've been city) does. Which is nothing to DBZ characters who are moon (Venus level from the obd calc) at the beginning of the series.

You are still totally missing the point. It has nothing to do with joules. You can't give someone radiation poisoning with a punch. You can't shock someone with a flamethrower. Different forms of energy are not comparable in terms of what effects they have on people. I would think that's obvious, but you seem determined to ignore that.

Also, quit using fan calcs as proof. They mean absolutely nothing, and cannot be used to prove anything.

Skar · Post by **Skar** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:01 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:it fits regardless. Syn being galaxy level doesn't affect Omega only being universal through a negative energy spread. Omega is 10x stronger than a galaxy buster (not a linear boost but just for you I'm going to assume he is). That's not universal. Omega would have to be a ridiculous amount of times stronger than Syn to not need the negative energy spread.

I think you still don't understand how an exponential scale works. Only the artificial scale itself that measures stats can be exponential not when talking about the actual stats. If someone is 2x faster then he can literally cover the same distance twice as fast. Stats are always linear. 10x more powerful literally means he has 10x the power. SSJ4 Gogeta was said to be dozens of times stronger than a normal SSJ4 as in literally dozens of times not millions or billions. If they said his power level was dozens of times greater then you can argue his strength is much higher because when you translate it into actual strength then the number is much greater than the value for the power level. When you talk about actual strength then there's no scale or anything left to convert that number to so you're just directly comparing one person's strength with another.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:02 pm

Is anyone planning on posting a list of creative fan-made power level numbers any time soon, or do I have to come up with something to get this thread back on track?

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:45 pm

Kaboom wrote:Is anyone planning on posting a list of creative fan-made power level numbers any time soon, or do I have to come up with something to get this thread back on track?

I was thinking about trying to create a semi-coherent list of the anime version of the Buu arc. Joke lists about the anime are all well and good (base Goku > all), but I'm curious to see if the fights can be made to add up in Toei's universe. This would of course require ignoring three or so infamous statements which themselves contradict everything else, but as long as you remember Toei's logic (people throw out weak ki blasts they know won't do anything for no reason, SS2s often have SS hair and only show lightning once or sometimes not at all, people can take punches very well, attacking someone at the same time as your partner is super effective, people hold back even when it's illogical and out of character, etc.), it's not impossible. I don't think so, anyway. Notable filler fights include:

-SS2 Vegeta putting up a decent fight against Pure Buu.

-SS2 Goku + SS2 Vegeta nearly defeating Super Buu.

-Base Gotenks apparently being between SS2 Vegeta/Goku and Gohan, judging by his fight with fatso.

-Gohan putting up a decent fight against Gotenks-Buu.

-Piccolo being portrayed as much stronger at the Cell Games, which would logically carry over to the Buu arc.

-Buuhan holding back most of his power against base Vegetto before powering up and declaring that Vegetto can't beat him, followed by Vegetto saying "Okay, then why don't I show you?" and going SS. Buuhan then still gives SS Vegetto a bit of trouble...

-South Kaioshin doing about as well against Pure Buu as SS2 Vegeta.

...among others.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:22 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Completed my latest battle power list. The format was blatantly ripped off from from Zombie's newest list, though with some modifications (dividing characters by faction, listing heights for some of them because I wanted to, the presence of a handful of other movie characters, etc.). I just recently finished it and only read it over once, so I probably made a mistake or ten. Feedback and corrections are welcomed:

Powuh Levels

-Android arc Piccolo is too low, he should be > Yardrat Goku. He was confident in taking on a power that he thought could slaughter Mecha arc Trunks.

-You have a huge gap between Goten/Gohan. I couldn't see Gohan effortlessly stomping him, and no way he would struggle if Goten was like 55% of Gohan. 85% of Gohan and up is appropriate.

-Still disagree with the Goku/Fat Boo gap, but agree to disagree I guess.

-I think pre-RoSaT Gotenks should have more than 1.28x Fat Boo, maybe like 1.4x. It's impossible to beat Boo at equal levels and for Goku/Piccolo to be confident in Gotenks' power, he should have a noticeable lead.

-Gohan-Boo < SSJ 3 Gogeta ?

-It seems unnecessary to have base Vegetto 2x Gohan-Boo, I don't see a reason for him to transform if he can already stomp Boo in base.

Other than that the list is well done. Like the formatting too.

Hugo Boss · Post by **Hugo Boss** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:46 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:-Android arc Piccolo is too low, he should be > Yardrat Goku. He was confident in taking on a power that he thought could slaughter Mecha arc Trunks.

Piccolo was only confident after seeing how the androids fought. I don't remember Future Trunks (before training in the RoSaT) being said to be any different from the level we was at Mecha Freeza saga and at that point Freeza and his father were still considered as a big deal.

It's impossible to beat Boo at equal levels.

Where is that implied?

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:52 am

Hugo Boss wrote:Piccolo was only confident after seeing how the androids fought. I don't remember Future Trunks (before training in the RoSaT) being said to be any different from the level we was at Mecha Freeza saga and at that point Freeza and his father were still considered as a big deal.

This was before they fought the androids.

Also Trunks went from below Yardrat Goku to being grouped with Android arc Vegeta. Ridiculous to say he didn't change at all.

Where is that implied?

Boo has regeneration and infinite stamina.

silverstorm_nuce · Post by **silverstorm_nuce** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:01 am

Official Power Levels

Spoiler:

Fusion and Potara

Char A and Char B; A > B

Fusion = B x 2 x 15
Potara = (A + B) x 50 (Only Vegetto)

Spoiler:

SSJ1 = Base Form x 50
SSJ2 = SSJ1 X 2
SSJ3 = SSJ2 X 3
SSJ3 Full Power = SSJ2 X 4

Kanzenshuu

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