The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Piccolo Daimao]

Obviously, the statement for Super Saiyan 3 got retconed, at least for the anime.

And/or, it's just a pretty generic statement that was used to describe most, if not all, of the power-ups and transformations that Gokuu and his friends underwent throughout the series, such as the Super God Water, Saichorou's dormant power-unleashing, Kaiouken, all the Super Saiyan stages (including Grade II and III), Bobbodi's awakening, etc.

Heck, Gohan gets his hidden power drawn out twice, and I don't doubt that, if the plot needed it and/or Toriyama wanted to continue the story after the Boo arc, he would've had it done to him a fourth time. And that's not even counting Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation at the Cell Games, touted by Gokuu and the story itself to be his "big awakening" that was meant to finish Cell off and cement Gohan's place as Gokuu's successor. Then, in the following arc, both Gokuu and Vegeta attained Gohan's "special unique form", and Gohan was quickly pushed into the shadows while Gokuu reached a new plateau of power in the form of yet another Super Saiyan form, and eventually defeated the main villain, returning to his "rightful" spot as the main character (to be honest, Gohan was pretty much back to being "number two" when Gokuu mentioned returning to the 25th TB).

[Rocketman]

I think people often take Old Kaioshin's words about taking one's power past their limits too literally. I see it more of a "I can make you super duper strong" kind of thing, which is not a new concept to the Dragon Ball story, really.

Both Goku and Gohan react like that, and Old Kai tells them they're wrong and his powerup is different.

[Toriyama-sama]

Yes, it's different... It's muuuuuuch greater than any other magical unlocking Since Toriyama didn't really go into detail with that issue we can't do more than speculate and define our "personal canons", and this is how I interpret that scene.

I mean, after the exponential growth of powers we've seen thoughout the whole series, I don't think it's reasonable to say characters have a limit to their strenghts. The more they train, or fight strong opponents, or get power-ups or whatever, the stronger they get, and this can go on indefinitely.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Not a new body? Ok explain why Goku turns into an adult upon transforming. Toriyama may not be picky but he doesnt oppose the statement as such Goku is the strongest. Well I happen to believe Goku is only 7.5x weaker than Gohan at most. I also believe in exponential Ki growth meaning I believe Goku got far more than 7.5x stronger in those 10 years. I think SSJ2 Goku can take Gohan by the end of Z. Same goes for SSJ2 Vegeta.

Did Goku magically get a new body and leave his kid body in a pocket dimension or something. It was his body enhanced. Gt logic is all over the place. If that was a new body, where did his kid one go. Toriyama not opposing the idea means nothing, he doesn't care about debating like we do. I have Gohan 16 times stronger then Goku.

Well obviously, IMO, I have goku far more than 16x stronger 10 years later since you know I think SSJ2 Goku can take him. SSJ4 is too part of GT so its logic is all over the place. Whether Toriyama doesnt like debating is irrelevant. He doesnt oppose a statement that clearly states Goku is the strongest as such Goku is more than likely the strongest by the end of the series. Furthermore:
Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?”
Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”
Note that Goku states that Uub might be stronger than Good Buu. Then note that Goku states that Uub was as amazing as he expected. 10 Years ago he expected to fight Kid Buu reincarnated. Naturally he would expect his incarnation to be just as powerful since Goku says he is as amazing as he expected. Even if you somehow find this faulty, Uub is generally stated to be above Good Buu at the very least which is still very powerful. Notice also that Goku was fighting on par with Uub whom is stated to be above Good Buu and might be just as strong as Kid Buu. That would mean base Goku = Good Buu-Kid Buu in power. Now multiply that by 400 and you get a very substantial amount of power by far greater than 16x. Seriously Goku got more than 100x stronger in 10 years so I find it highly likely that not only Goku but Vegeta as well surpassed Gohan.

[dbzfan7]

Not a new body? Ok explain why Goku turns into an adult upon transforming. Toriyama may not be picky but he doesnt oppose the statement as such Goku is the strongest. Well I happen to believe Goku is only 7.5x weaker than Gohan at most. I also believe in exponential Ki growth meaning I believe Goku got far more than 7.5x stronger in those 10 years. I think SSJ2 Goku can take Gohan by the end of Z. Same goes for SSJ2 Vegeta.

Did Goku magically get a new body and leave his kid body in a pocket dimension or something. It was his body enhanced. Gt logic is all over the place. If that was a new body, where did his kid one go. Toriyama not opposing the idea means nothing, he doesn't care about debating like we do. I have Gohan 16 times stronger then Goku.

Well obviously, IMO, I have goku far more than 16x stronger 10 years later since you know I think SSJ2 Goku can take him. SSJ4 is too part of GT so its logic is all over the place. Whether Toriyama doesnt like debating is irrelevant. He doesnt oppose a statement that clearly states Goku is the strongest as such Goku is more than likely the strongest by the end of the series. Furthermore:
Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?”
Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”
Note that Goku states that Uub might be stronger than Good Buu. Then note that Goku states that Uub was as amazing as he expected. 10 Years ago he expected to fight Kid Buu reincarnated. Naturally he would expect his incarnation to be just as powerful since Goku says he is as amazing as he expected. Even if you somehow find this faulty, Uub is generally stated to be above Good Buu at the very least which is still very powerful. Notice also that Goku was fighting on par with Uub whom is stated to be above Good Buu and might be just as strong as Kid Buu. That would mean base Goku = Good Buu-Kid Buu in power. Now multiply that by 400 and you get a very substantial amount of power by far greater than 16x. Seriously Goku got more than 100x stronger in 10 years so I find it highly likely that not only Goku but Vegeta as well surpassed Gohan.

Considering Goku has to have special training to get somewhere I don't see it. He basically had mountain training.

Also those lines mean nothing since Gohan did not sign up for the tournament. Gohan isn't a threat when he isn't participating.

Toriyama not saying anything means nothing. He does it all the time. He never makes complaints or nitpicks.

Goku EOZ vs Ultimate Gohan

Bringing this back so the explanations from before return.

[Mjb1985]

PD Gohan is a Super Saiyan in the trailer as well.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Considering Goku has to have special training to get somewhere I don't see it. He basically had mountain training.

Also those lines mean nothing since Gohan did not sign up for the tournament. Gohan isn't a threat when he isn't participating.

Toriyama not saying anything means nothing. He does it all the time. He never makes complaints or nitpicks.

If you think Gohan is only 16x stronger than Goku this statement proves something. Well since these statements straight up say Goku got over 100x stronger in 10 years you kind of have to accept it =/. This statement right here only supports Toriyama's statement on Battle Power's being to hard to track after Frieza. If Toriyama has a problem with something he'll be vocal about it so I see no reason to assume its wrong. Plus the people that made the Daiz are also the people who interviewed him so I see no reason to dispute this especially when there is nothing in the manga that disputes this idea by the end of Z.
These statements support EoZ Goku > EoZ Gohan.

[dbzfan7]

Considering Goku has to have special training to get somewhere I don't see it. He basically had mountain training.

Also those lines mean nothing since Gohan did not sign up for the tournament. Gohan isn't a threat when he isn't participating.

Toriyama not saying anything means nothing. He does it all the time. He never makes complaints or nitpicks.

If you think Gohan is only 16x stronger than Goku this statement proves something. Well since these statements straight up say Goku got over 100x stronger in 10 years you kind of have to accept it =/. This statement right here only supports Toriyama's statement on Battle Power's being to hard to track after Freeza. If Toriyama has a problem with something he'll be vocal about it so I see no reason to assume its wrong. Plus the people that made the Daiz are also the people who interviewed him so I see no reason to dispute this especially when there is nothing in the manga that disputes this idea by the end of Z.
These statements support EoZ Goku > EoZ Gohan.

When has Toriyama been vocal about a problem? He was vocal about the fan problem with evolution, but that's it. I douhgt Goku got 100x stronger without special training. Where does it even suggest that. Goku never got much stronger without special training. He had afterlife training, gravity training, spar training. With no one to train with and no special training, I can't see much of an increase. Nothing says Goku was stronger in the manga either.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Considering Goku has to have special training to get somewhere I don't see it. He basically had mountain training.

Also those lines mean nothing since Gohan did not sign up for the tournament. Gohan isn't a threat when he isn't participating.

Toriyama not saying anything means nothing. He does it all the time. He never makes complaints or nitpicks.

If you think Gohan is only 16x stronger than Goku this statement proves something. Well since these statements straight up say Goku got over 100x stronger in 10 years you kind of have to accept it =/. This statement right here only supports Toriyama's statement on Battle Power's being to hard to track after Freeza. If Toriyama has a problem with something he'll be vocal about it so I see no reason to assume its wrong. Plus the people that made the Daiz are also the people who interviewed him so I see no reason to dispute this especially when there is nothing in the manga that disputes this idea by the end of Z.
These statements support EoZ Goku > EoZ Gohan.

When has Toriyama been vocal about a problem? He was vocal about the fan problem with evolution, but that's it. I douhgt Goku got 100x stronger without special training. Where does it even suggest that.

base Goku = Uub based on there fight. Uub is stronger than Good Buu and should be equal to Kid Buu. Meaning Goku to is stronger than Good Buu and might be equal to Kid Buu in base at this point based on these strength checkers. We dont know how strong characters get withing time frames so its an invalid point to make. These strength checkers seem to point to an exponential growth though.

[Mjb1985]

I think Gohan is drastically more powerful than Goku...

Ultimate Gohan > Ssj3 Gotenks >= Super Buu > Ssj2 Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks > Base Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks Pre Rosat > Ssj3 Goku

Imo that is a tremendous gap. Ssj4 won't cut it IMO...

[TheMightyOzaru]

I think Gohan is drastically more powerful than Goku...

Ultimate Gohan > Ssj3 Gotenks >= Super Buu > Ssj2 Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks > Base Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks Pre Rosat > Ssj3 Goku

Imo that is a tremendous gap. Ssj4 won't cut it IMO...

Base Gotenks Post Rosat isnt 50x stronger in a matter of less than 10 days =/. SSJ3 Goku also isnt stated to be below SSJ Gotenks. SSJ Gotenks is just above Majin Buu. Let me show you something these are power ranks for the sake of demonstration:
Goku: 5
SSJ Goku: 250
SSJ2 Goku: 500
SSJ3 Goku: 2,000
SSJ4 Goku: 20,000
Gohan: 15,000
Majin Buu: 800
Gotenks: 22.5
SSJ Gotenks: 1,125
SSJ3 Gotenks: 9,000
Super Buu: 9,000
as you can see a 10x increase can certainly put Goku above Gohan.

[dbzfan7]

base Goku = Uub based on there fight. Uub is stronger than Good Buu and should be equal to Kid Buu. Meaning Goku to is stronger than Good Buu and might be equal to Kid Buu in base at this point based on these strength checkers. We dont know how strong characters get withing time frames so its an invalid point to make. These strength checkers seem to point to an exponential growth though.

I see your point but, Oob didn't show anything impressive at all. He seemed to only begin to tap into his power. If he was exactly how Goku imagined it, how come Oob wasn't flying. He expected to fight Kid Boo in another shape/form that is good. He said that other person might win, he never said he expected the fighter too win. He easily could have thought that as a high case scenario. Also consider that Goku wasn't exactly going all out. If he was we would have seen way more out of him. Oob also needed training, and I douhgt it takes a long time to teach flight. Goku was trying to bring out the potential he wanted to see. Goku expectations only clarified a strong fighter.

[Mjb1985]

Goten and Trunks state Base Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks Pre. Maybe their Ssj multiplier is not so big , maybe it's a gag, but Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre was flat out indirectly stated.

[TheMightyOzaru]

base Goku = Uub based on there fight. Uub is stronger than Good Buu and should be equal to Kid Buu. Meaning Goku to is stronger than Good Buu and might be equal to Kid Buu in base at this point based on these strength checkers. We dont know how strong characters get withing time frames so its an invalid point to make. These strength checkers seem to point to an exponential growth though.

I see your point but, Oob didn't show anything impressive at all. He seemed to only begin to tap into his power. If he was exactly how Goku imagined it, how come Oob wasn't flying. He expected to fight Kid Boo in another shape/form that is good. He said that other person might win, he never said he expected the fighter too win. He easily could have thought that as a high case scenario. Also consider that Goku wasn't exactly going all out. If he was we would have seen way more out of him.

Goku states Uub was as amazing as he expected meaning he is above Good Buu and might very well be equal to the Kid Buu he had expected to fight. Goku straight up says I wanted to see your true power and he says its as amazing as he expected. Look at SSJ Goten, he couldnt fly yet he was really powerful. If your saying Goku wasnt trying that would mean he is possibly stronger than Kid Buu in base.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goten and Trunks state Base Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks Pre. Maybe their Ssj multiplier is not so big , maybe it's a gag, but Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre was flat out indirectly stated.

Where the heck is that stated?

[Mjb1985]

Goten and Trunks think that they can match Super Buu in their regular fusion.

Piccolo thinks that Base Gotenks has a chance, while he said Ssj Gotenks had absolutely no chance.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goten and Trunks think that they can match Super Buu in their regular fusion.

Piccolo thinks that Base Gotenks has a chance, while he said Ssj Gotenks had absolutely no chance.

Manga scan please. This also doesnt really prove anything. SSJ3 Gotenks couldnt take Buu. It would seem like its just another case of blinded by the awesomeness sort of thing. Kibito Kaioshin thought he could take Buutenks after merging for a little bit but he was reassured very shortly.

[dbzfan7]

base Goku = Uub based on there fight. Uub is stronger than Good Buu and should be equal to Kid Buu. Meaning Goku to is stronger than Good Buu and might be equal to Kid Buu in base at this point based on these strength checkers. We dont know how strong characters get withing time frames so its an invalid point to make. These strength checkers seem to point to an exponential growth though.

I see your point but, Oob didn't show anything impressive at all. He seemed to only begin to tap into his power. If he was exactly how Goku imagined it, how come Oob wasn't flying. He expected to fight Kid Boo in another shape/form that is good. He said that other person might win, he never said he expected the fighter too win. He easily could have thought that as a high case scenario. Also consider that Goku wasn't exactly going all out. If he was we would have seen way more out of him.

Goku states Uub was as amazing as he expected meaning he is above Good Buu and might very well be equal to the Kid Buu he had expected to fight. Goku straight up says I wanted to see your true power and he says its as amazing as he expected. Look at SSJ Goten, he couldnt fly yet he was really powerful. If your saying Goku wasnt trying that would mean he is possibly stronger than Kid Buu in base.

I find it hard to believe Oob to have tapped into all of his reserve power right away. Goku never says he expected Kid Boo level, he said he expected a strong fight. Goku was barely harmed in the fight. I consider Oob a possibility of getting that strong, but if he already was, why did Goku barely take damage, he shook off all of Oobs the attacks. No way can they even be equal if Goku takes little to no damage.

[Mjb1985]

Piccolo , Goten and Trunks all agree that Super Buu is way beyond Ssj Gotenks Pre Rosat.

They all think that Base Gotenks Post Rosat has a chance at Super Buu.

While that didn't end up becoming true, one can explain that in a couple of ways.

But even if they were wrong, how could they possibly think Base Gotenks Post had a chance against Super Buu if he was weaker than Ssj Gotenks Pre Rosat, who had zero chance against Super Buu.

It just wouldn't make any sense at all for Ssj Gotenks Pre > Base Gotenks Post unless you are under the belief that black hair can't ever be stronger than yellow.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I find it hard to believe Oob to have tapped into all of his reserve power right away. Goku never says he expected Kid Boo level, he said he expected a strong fight. Goku was barely harmed in the fight. I consider Oob a possibility of getting that strong, but if he already was, why did Goku barely take damage, he shook off all of Oobs the attacks. No way can they even be equal if Goku takes little to no damage.

Goku says someone besides us and Buu might win and later goes on to say he is just as strong as he expected. Base Goku > Good Buu. Fact. As for Kid Buu, Goku wanted to right the reincarnation of Kid Buu. Naturally he would expect someone just as strong. From these strength checkers it would appear base Goku > Kid Buu.