The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Saiga]

Goku EOZ vs Ultimate Gohan

Bringing this back so the explanations from before return.

Goku gets beaten harder than my dog.

I don't believe that Oob was equal to Kid Boo, or superior to Good Boo. Goku implied he would be, but he was noticeably disappointed when he actually saw him.

Also, if he was as strong as Pure Boo in base, why on Earth would he need 100% of his stamina for the battle? Just turning Super Saiyan would be enough to absolutely dominate Oob. There wouldn't be any challenge.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Piccolo , Goten and Trunks all agree that Super Buu is way beyond Ssj Gotenks Pre Rosat.

They all think that Base Gotenks Post Rosat has a chance at Super Buu.

While that didn't end up becoming true, one can explain that in a couple of ways.

But even if they were wrong, how could they possibly think Base Gotenks Post had a chance against Super Buu if he was weaker than Ssj Gotenks Pre Rosat, who had zero chance against Super Buu.

It just wouldn't make any sense at all for Ssj Gotenks Pre > Base Gotenks Post unless you are under the belief that black hair can't ever be stronger than yellow.

Kibito Kaioshin thought he had a chance at Buutenks when he was "made" so this statement doesnt really prove anything but hey it is possible. a 50x increase is plausible with the whole exponential increase thing.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku EOZ vs Ultimate Gohan

Bringing this back so the explanations from before return.

Goku gets beaten harder than my dog.

I don't believe that Oob was equal to Kid Boo, or superior to Good Boo. Goku implied he would be, but he was noticeably disappointed when he actually saw him.

Also, if he was as strong as Pure Boo in base, why on Earth would he need 100% of his stamina for the battle? Just turning Super Saiyan would be enough to absolutely dominate Oob. There wouldn't be any challenge.

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”
Goku isnt disappointed in the slightest. base Goku > Good Buu. I see no reason whatsoever to assume Goku is weaker than Gohan. As for the SSJ thing, it was previously established that they wont go SSJ during the Budokai.

[Mjb1985]

And Kibito Kai's statement was quickly retracted. Considering that KibitoKai didn't even stick around to help out Goku and Vegeta against Kid Buu , it seems likely that he's actually not powerful at all.

For me I'm 100% sold on Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre, the ways to explain it numerically is another story. But the quotes are pretty flat out.

[TheMightyOzaru]

And Kibito Kai's statement was quickly retracted. Considering that KibitoKai didn't even stick around to help out Goku and Vegeta against Kid Buu , it seems likely that he's actually not powerful at all.

For me I'm 100% sold on Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre, the ways to explain it numerically is another story. But the quotes are pretty flat out.

Doesnt Piccolo quickly retract that statement when Gotenks starts fighting...?

[Rocketman]

While that didn't end up becoming true, one can explain that in a couple of ways.

The kids are overconfident and stupid, while Piccolo was a setup for a gag.


Also Uub was definitely Kid Buu level, that's why the World Tournament was torn apart like the KaiWorld. :roll:

[dbzfan7]

I find it hard to believe Oob to have tapped into all of his reserve power right away. Goku never says he expected Kid Boo level, he said he expected a strong fight. Goku was barely harmed in the fight. I consider Oob a possibility of getting that strong, but if he already was, why did Goku barely take damage, he shook off all of Oobs the attacks. No way can they even be equal if Goku takes little to no damage.

Goku says someone besides us and Buu might win and later goes on to say he is just as strong as he expected. Base Goku > Good Buu. Fact. As for Kid Buu, Goku wanted to right the reincarnation of Kid Buu. Naturally he would expect someone just as strong. From these strength checkers it would appear base Goku > Kid Buu.

I don't see how when Goku didn't take any damage. Oob probably only showed some potential. If he was Kid Boo level like you say, how come Goku treated the battle like nothing. He expected a good fight and he barely tried. I see it as he saw the potential he has hidden in him. The fight didn't look like the fight he always wanted. That's why he went to train Oob. He wasn't satisfied with their fight. He expected a good fight but got a mediocre one. He wanted to fight Oob at his full potential and the current fight they had would not have justified what he wanted. He expected a strong fighter and got what he expected for the most part. His quote about him possibly winning is a guess that he thought may be possible.

[Mjb1985]

Piccolo doesn't exactly retract his statement , his face palm is more about Gotenks unwillingness to accept he is outclassed.

It seems crazy at first, but crazier things have happened in the story. You can either explain the multiple statements as a gag like Rocketman does, or you can take them seriously like I do. I personally haven't seen a gag effect power in such a manner, but I understand those who do.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I find it hard to believe Oob to have tapped into all of his reserve power right away. Goku never says he expected Kid Boo level, he said he expected a strong fight. Goku was barely harmed in the fight. I consider Oob a possibility of getting that strong, but if he already was, why did Goku barely take damage, he shook off all of Oobs the attacks. No way can they even be equal if Goku takes little to no damage.

Goku says someone besides us and Buu might win and later goes on to say he is just as strong as he expected. Base Goku > Good Buu. Fact. As for Kid Buu, Goku wanted to right the reincarnation of Kid Buu. Naturally he would expect someone just as strong. From these strength checkers it would appear base Goku > Kid Buu.

I don't see how when Goku didn't take any damage. Oob probably only showed some potential. If he was Kid Boo level like you say, how come Goku treated the battle like nothing. He expected a good fight and he barely tried. I see it as he saw the potential he has hidden in him. The fight didn't look like the fight he always wanted. That's why he went to train Oob. He wasn't satisfied with their fight. He expected a good fight but got a mediocre one. He wanted to fight Oob at his full potential and the current fight they had would not have justified what he wanted.

Uub's some potential was still higher than Good Buu's =/. His power is just as amazing as he expected and he expected it to be above Good Buu's since he straight up says someone besides us and Buu may win. Goku didnt barely try at all I dont know where you keep getting this. His clothes are torn and he was really more focused on drawing out the power than fighting at first. Naturally he isnt satisfied. He is far stronger when you consider SSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3. Furthermore he only decides to quit when realizing that he doesnt know how to control his power. Fighting someone who know's what they are doing is far more productive and fun.

[Mjb1985]

Yea that 28th Budokai has some real insane implications.

[dbzfan7]

Uub's some potential was still higher than Good Buu's =/. Goku didnt barely try at all I dont know where you keep getting this. His clothes are torn and he was really more focused on drawing out the power than fighting at first. Naturally he isnt satisfied. He is far stronger when you consider SSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3. Furthermore he only decides to quit when realizing that he doesnt know how to control his power. Fighting someone who know's what they are doing is far more productive and fun.

I highly douhgt Oob's some potential is already stronger then Good Boo. He doesn't even know how to use it, and Goku basically shaking off every attack Oob used, I would say he wasn't even trying.

Closes torn means nothing. Vegeta has had people make him bleed when he was much stronger, does that mean he was hurt or trying his hardest. I guess 19 really hurt Vegeta then.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Uub's some potential was still higher than Good Buu's =/. Goku didnt barely try at all I dont know where you keep getting this. His clothes are torn and he was really more focused on drawing out the power than fighting at first. Naturally he isnt satisfied. He is far stronger when you consider SSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3. Furthermore he only decides to quit when realizing that he doesnt know how to control his power. Fighting someone who know's what they are doing is far more productive and fun.

I highly dought Oob's some potential is already stronger then Good Boo. He doesn't even know how to use it, and Goku basically shaking off every attack Oob used, I would say he wasn't even trying.

Closes torn means nothing. Vegeta has had people make him bleed when he was much stronger, does that mean he was hurt or trying his hardest. I guess 19 really hurt Vegeta then.

Are you not listening? Goku says Uub might beat all of us including Buu. When he stops the fight Goku says he is just as strong as he expected meaning what Uub had shown was in fact stronger than Good Buu like he thought. base Goku > Good Buu.

[Mjb1985]

What he is saying is that Goku expected Uub to be more powerful than Good Buu. Goku says that Uub met his expectations. It's pretty clear. Whether you want to accept it or not is another story.

[dbzfan7]

Uub's some potential was still higher than Good Buu's =/. Goku didnt barely try at all I dont know where you keep getting this. His clothes are torn and he was really more focused on drawing out the power than fighting at first. Naturally he isnt satisfied. He is far stronger when you consider SSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3. Furthermore he only decides to quit when realizing that he doesnt know how to control his power. Fighting someone who know's what they are doing is far more productive and fun.

I highly dought Oob's some potential is already stronger then Good Boo. He doesn't even know how to use it, and Goku basically shaking off every attack Oob used, I would say he wasn't even trying.

Closes torn means nothing. Vegeta has had people make him bleed when he was much stronger, does that mean he was hurt or trying his hardest. I guess 19 really hurt Vegeta then.

Are you not listening? Goku says Uub might beat all of us including Buu. When he stops the fight Goku says he is just as strong as he expected meaning what Uub had shown was in fact stronger than Good Buu like he thought. base Goku > Good Buu.

He said might as in a guess. His expectation every time before that and quoted was that there is a strong guy I want to fight. He found the Kid Boo reincarnation and fought a strong warrior is what he expected. If you consider that then you might as well consider the one line which Base Gotenks post could be considered stronger then pre. He also expected he would need 100% stamina when he clearly didn't. How can they be equals when Goku barely took damage and was testing him the whole time.

[Mjb1985]

There's several lines that Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre actually.

[Saiga]

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”
Goku isnt disappointed in the slightest. base Goku > Good Buu. I see no reason whatsoever to assume Goku is weaker than Gohan. As for the SSJ thing, it was previously established that they wont go SSJ during the Budokai.

All that means is that Oob's no ordinary human, and from that Goku can confirm that he's Pure Boo's reincarnation. That doesn't make him stronger than Good Boo.

I see no reason to assume Goku is stronger than Gohan since Gohan was stronger than him in the Boo arc by a fair margin and even though 10 years have passed Goku hasn't been said to be doing any kind of amazing training that would help him close such a gap.

And it was a different Budokai that they agreed not to use Super Saiyan, to hide it from Videl. No reason to keep it that way for this one.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He said might as in a guess. His expectation every time before that and quoted was that their is a strong guy I want to fight. He found the Kid Boo reincarnation and fought a strong warrior is what he expected. If you consider that then you might as well consider the one line which Base Gotenks post could be considered stronger then pre. He also expected he would need 100% stamina when he clearly didn't. How can they be equals when Goku barely took damage and was testing him the whole time.

Goku said Uub might be stronger than Good Buu later he says he says, here Ill bold it, You are as Amazin' as I expected. He expected him to be stronger than Good Buu he makes this very clear. He also expects to fight Kid Buu's reincarnation who should be just as strong as Kid Buu. Its pretty clear what Toriyama is trying to get across here. Goku is stronger than Good Buu in his base form.

[Rocketman]

And nobody else reacts to this SS3-level power because...?

[dbzfan7]

He said might as in a guess. His expectation every time before that and quoted was that their is a strong guy I want to fight. He found the Kid Boo reincarnation and fought a strong warrior is what he expected. If you consider that then you might as well consider the one line which Base Gotenks post could be considered stronger then pre. He also expected he would need 100% stamina when he clearly didn't. How can they be equals when Goku barely took damage and was testing him the whole time.

Goku said Uub might be stronger than Good Buu later he says he says, here Ill bold it, You are as Amazin' as I expected. He expected him to be stronger than Good Buu he makes this very clear. He also expects to fight Kid Buu's reincarnation who should be just as strong as Kid Buu. Its pretty clear what Toriyama is trying to get across here. Goku is stronger than Good Buu in his base form.

That wasn't an expectation what he said. He said he might be stronger which is a case scenario. Either Goku became some shining God to the point where Kid Boo is worthless to him, or Oob only tapped into some potential. Goku confirmed he is who he wanted him to be. Goku previously stated 5 times he expected to fight a strong fighter. Only one time does he say your case, and he says might as in maybe. It's a line you can take as the Base Gotenks post vs Pre one where the line had Piccolo believe Gotenk's power up was substantial enough that it is a stronger then pre Gotenks and he could win. He seemed to believe it, he lost all hope when it wouldn't be enough. you can consider it a throw away line or accept it. Just like the one line that contradicts Goku's expectation saying he expects a strong fighter.

[Saiga]

He said might as in a guess. His expectation every time before that and quoted was that their is a strong guy I want to fight. He found the Kid Boo reincarnation and fought a strong warrior is what he expected. If you consider that then you might as well consider the one line which Base Gotenks post could be considered stronger then pre. He also expected he would need 100% stamina when he clearly didn't. How can they be equals when Goku barely took damage and was testing him the whole time.

Goku said Uub might be stronger than Good Buu later he says he says, here Ill bold it, You are as Amazin' as I expected. He expected him to be stronger than Good Buu he makes this very clear. He also expects to fight Kid Buu's reincarnation who should be just as strong as Kid Buu. Its pretty clear what Toriyama is trying to get across here. Goku is stronger than Good Buu in his base form.

That doesn't mean Oob > Good Boo. I'm fine with people interpreting it that way, as long as they can recognise that it is an interpretation, and not fact.