SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[dbzfan7]

I really doubt it, Fat Buu was happy and not at all pushed to the limit while fighting Goku.

Fat Boo was definitely struggling against SSJ3 Goku. And unlike Goku, Fat Boo isn't the sort of character to hold back if it isn't hurting his opponent. At that point Fat Boo was in the frame of mind that torturing his opponent is the most fun thing to do. So Fat Boo would at least be trying to hurt SSJ3 Goku, something he could not do because Goku was, all around, better than him. Fat Boo is not a martial artist either so he does not have the level of control Goku has when it comes to holding back. I honestly think Fat Boo was trying to injure Goku because that was the only form of pleasure he knows.

Did you not read the battle? Buu was like jumping all over the place and smiling and laughing and etc, Goku was giving him a good fun match. Now compare that with Vegeta or even base Gotenks.

Fat Boo enjoyed himself the whole time. He wasn't even furious or angry at any point. This leads me to believe Goku didn't do much to Fat Boo. If Goku actually tried he would have won, but the effort he gave was just a game in Boo's eyes.

[Hitiro]

Did you not read the battle? Buu was like jumping all over the place and smiling and laughing and etc, Goku was giving him a good fun match. Now compare that with Vegeta or even base Gotenks.

Doesn't change the fact his power had jumped up from all the times he got angry though. His power definitely wasn't the same when he first appeared. Goku and Vegeta both noted that his power had increased after he got angry and it was never implied to have decreased after he stopped being angry. Goku does say later he isn't sure he could beat Fat Boo because his power is a lie. I took that to mean that Goku thought there was till another depth to his power that he could access if he got angry. I still think Fat Boo(vs. SSJ3 Goku) > Fat Boo(vs. SSJ2 Majin Vegeta) > Fat Boo(vs. SSJ Gohan)

[Mjb1985]

Either way Buu's anger never propelled him up to a level of Ssj3 Goku. He's not far off, but he's just not there.

[Hitiro]

Either way Buu's anger never propelled him up to a level of Ssj3 Goku. He's not far off, but he's just not there.

I agree Buu's anger never propelled him up to Goku's level, of course I'm not saying it did. But I don't think it was as close as people make it out to be. You have to remember that SSJ3 Goku is only 4x stronger then SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. And while Majin Vegeta is 4x weaker than SSJ3 Goku he still managed to fight against Fat Boo before he was caught off-guard by him pulling out a blob of his pink fat and quickly shooting a beam at him. Goku was also batting away all Fat Boo's attacks like they were nothing. Fat Boo offered him little challenge during the fight. People can say Fat Boo wasn't trying against Goku but there is a clear and stark difference between them even if he isn't trying.. If both Fat Boo and Goku were only fighting at 50% of their respective battle powers and Goku is walloping Fat Boo good then at 100% it is going to be the same difference. And for Goku to be picking Fat Boo apart like that I'd say he was at least twice as strong as Fat Boo. That would still make Fat Boo 2x stronger than Majin Vegeta. I still think this is a fair assessment.

[Mjb1985]

Initially Goku was whooping Buu, but a little later they had an even fight. I think Buu is very nonchalant, why would be need to be on guard so much? He regenerates from nearly any blow so he's not too concerned to get hit.

We saw Majin Vegeta pummel Buu initially even though Buu was superior.

[Hitiro]

Initially Goku was whooping Buu, but a little later they had an even fight. I think Buu is very nonchalant, why would be need to be on guard so much? He regenerates from nearly any blow so he's not too concerned to get hit.

We saw Majin Vegeta pummel Buu initially even though Buu was superior.

Its not really about being on guard. It is the fact that Buu's only contribution to damaging Goku in the fight was two punches and he didn't even really do damage. It has been a while since I have read the fight but I thought it wasn't that even.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Just looked like a fun sparring match, to be honest. The fight isn't long enough to draw a strong conclusion on who did the best, anyway. It's worth mentioning that Boo was somewhat surprised Goku was able to smile off his punch, but other than that, looked like an equal battle.

[Kaboom]

Fat Boo landed two punches on Goku. Goku never showed any damage from either one. In fact, he gave a smug smirk after the first one. Fat Boo fired a full-force Kamehameha at Goku and Goku swatted it away.

Personally, I don't think Fat Boo was anywhere near Goku in power. Half of it or less. I think Goku was just barely even trying, conserving energy while stalling for time, hence Boo appearing to fight him "evenly" and the ambiguity about Goku's power level afterwards.

[RandomGuy96]

I go with Fat Buu (without splitting) being a little over twice as strong as SS2 Gohan based on the power meter, where SS2 Gohan's energy filled up "almost half" of it. The meter looked pretty close to the halfway mark, so I just put it at 47% full. I don't know if Toriyama intended us to look at it like that, but it's a nice hint either way. As for Fat Buu (about to split), he's equal to Super Buu for me. That seems about right.

Okay, random question: am I imaging this, or did Kaioshin say that if they blew up Babidi's ship now while Buu's meter was only half full, he'd be at half power?

[Kaboom]

Okay, random question: am I imaging this, or did Kaioshin say that if they blew up Babidi's ship now while Buu's meter was only half full, he'd be at half power?

Something like that, yeah, though he still insisted that'd be enough to kill all of them easily. Bobbidi and/or Dabra expressed the same fear about Boo being released prematurely, too.

[RandomGuy96]

So then, it seems that Fat Buu's power level actually IS directly proportional to the meter. That would seem to support Fat Buu only being around twice as strong as SS2 Gohan. That's what I've always gone with; Goku tanked his attacks without even putting out full power, including the Kamehameha, and Fatty only needs to be x1.5 stronger (or less with his infinite stamina and regeneration factored in) than Vegeta for that line about all three SS2s being unable to beat him to make sense, as earlier it was implied that x1.5 is the type of gap where teamwork doesn't matter anymore.

But then again, the Daizenshuu also said that absorbing the Dai Kaioshin only 'somewhat' weakened Kid Buu, so I'm not sure how to take that.

[Kaboom]

But then again, the Daizenshuu also said that absorbing the Dai Kaioshin only 'somewhat' weakened Kid Buu, so I'm not sure how to take that.

That's why I figure Pure Boo to be a notch weaker than SSj3 Goku, and only "winning" their match because of his haxed regeneration and stamina and what-not. Same reason Goku would have required a big charged-up attack to finish Boo off. What's normally enough to kill your average fighter isn't enough to kill Majin Boo at that same power level.

[RandomGuy96]

I place him higher, since Goku said he couldn't stop Kid Buu's Vanishing Ball and he really seemed to be having more trouble in their little scuffle. Kid Buu wasn't even really taking him seriously. He also said he would need to train to get much, much better to beat Kid Buu, and still thought he might lose years later.

What I mean is, if Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Kid Buu, wouldn't that actually mean he's pretty close to Goku? I don't follow that, but I don't want this to be another one of those lines I just outright throw out.

[dbzfan7]

But then again, the Daizenshuu also said that absorbing the Dai Kaioshin only 'somewhat' weakened Kid Buu, so I'm not sure how to take that.

That's why I figure Pure Boo to be a notch weaker than SSj3 Goku, and only "winning" their match because of his haxed regeneration and stamina and what-not. Same reason Goku would have required a big charged-up attack to finish Boo off. What's normally enough to kill your average fighter isn't enough to kill Majin Boo at that same power level.

Kid Boo can output more power than Goku can in a lot less time. The fight also looked pretty even for the most part with Kid Boo being described as dragging the battle out for fun (doesn't mean kid Boo wasn't trying, just means he isn't going for a kill so soon). I'd say Kid Boo was somewhat stronger than Goku.

[Mjb1985]

The fight looked equal to me. I have Kid Buu and Goku as perfect equals.

Fat Buu was having a good time sparring with Goku. It's hard to draw anything conclusive from their fight.

I don't know why people think Goku would blow Fat Buu out. Piccolo isn't even 100% sure if Goku could win he needed to ask.

Piccolo thinks Majin Vegeta is perhaps stronger than Kid Gohan and he thinks Goku is stronger but he's not outraged that Goku didn't handle him immediately.

I feel Goku is vastly overrated by a lot of posters. He's several steps ahead of Fat Buu, but he's not manhandling with complete and utter ease imo.

[mAcChaos]

The thing with Buu is, being equal to him is the same as actually being below him. Why? Well, if you are fighting him, you will get tired and beaten up, while he stays perfectly fine. So eventually he will wear you down, just like the Androids did to Vegeta.

And if you're only 50/50 with him then you aren't going to be able to hold him back long enough to produce that huge amount of energy that will wipe him out for good.

[Saiga]

I place him higher, since Goku said he couldn't stop Kid Buu's Vanishing Ball and he really seemed to be having more trouble in their little scuffle. Kid Buu wasn't even really taking him seriously. He also said he would need to train to get much, much better to beat Kid Buu, and still thought he might lose years later.

What I mean is, if Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Kid Buu, wouldn't that actually mean he's pretty close to Goku? I don't follow that, but I don't want this to be another one of those lines I just outright throw out.

Does the Daizenshuu line specifically refer to Pure Boo's power being lowered? Because it was SK-Boo that absorbed the Dai Kaioshin, so it definitely can't be a small drop.

[RandomGuy96]

Kid Buu's D7 bio says...

"He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened."

So it seems to be referring to Kid Buu as the one who lost power, not Buff Buu; in fact it never establishes the existence of Buff Buu here, and doesn't state that SK powered him up, even though the manga states dozens of times that he did. They were probably trying to be weaselly again. But yeah, it definitely seems to be referring to unaltered Kid Buu here. At least to me.

[Kamiccolo9]

I place him higher, since Goku said he couldn't stop Kid Buu's Vanishing Ball and he really seemed to be having more trouble in their little scuffle. Kid Buu wasn't even really taking him seriously. He also said he would need to train to get much, much better to beat Kid Buu, and still thought he might lose years later.

What I mean is, if Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Kid Buu, wouldn't that actually mean he's pretty close to Goku? I don't follow that, but I don't want this to be another one of those lines I just outright throw out.

Does the Daizenshuu line specifically refer to Pure Boo's power being lowered? Because it was SK-Boo that absorbed the Dai Kaioshin, so it definitely can't be a small drop.

Come to think of it, does it ever say that Fat Buu is weaker than Pure Buu? The Daizenshuu and manga say something about Dai Kaioshin's pure heart calming him, and lowering his power, but, like you said, Buff Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin, not Pure Buu. I'd never considered that before.

Kid Buu's D7 bio says...

"He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened."

So it seems to be referring to Kid Buu as the one who lost power, not Buff Buu; in fact it never establishes the existence of Buff Buu here, and doesn't state that SK powered him up, even though the manga states dozens of times that he did. They were probably trying to be weaselly again. But yeah, it definitely seems to be referring to unaltered Kid Buu here.

Is Buff Buu considered a different Buu, though? There wasn't any real psychological change noted. All of the Super Buu's are still considered the same being, after all. Could the same not apply to Pure Buu and Buff Buu?

[RandomGuy96]

He is basically Kid Buu, but what I'm saying is the entry doesn't establish a rise in power before it establishes a drop, so it SEEMS like it is saying (or at least trying to say) that Fat Buu is somewhat weaker than unaltered Kid Buu.

Come to think of it, does it ever say that Fat Buu is weaker than Pure Buu? The Daizenshuu and manga say something about Dai Kaioshin's pure heart calming him, and lowering his power, but, like you said, Buff Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin, not Pure Buu. I'd never considered that before.

Kibito Kai said that absorbing the Dai Kaioshin weakened him AND gave him a heart. And he's definitely referring to unaltered Kid Buu, not Buuoshin. The Dai Kaioshin's bio also said he weakened Buu. We also have Goku stating he could've beaten Fat Buu, heavily implying it wouldn't be much trouble, but losing against Kid Buu.