Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Wait why exactly are there people saying Vegeta is stronger than Vegito?

Stronger than SS Vegetto. If SS Vegetto is stronger than rage Vegeta, then SS3 Vegetto ends up stronger than God Goku.

[Helios518]

Wait why exactly are there people saying Vegeta is stronger than Vegito?

Because God Goku is 60% of Beerus. If SS Vegetto is stronger than Vegeta, that means SS Vegetto is around 10%. Meaning SS3 Vegetto would be around 80%, still weaker than Beerus sure, but Vegetto being stronger than SSG completely destroys the purpose of the transformation in the first place.

[MaGyunia]

Wait why exactly are there people saying Vegeta is stronger than Vegito?

Going back a few pages ago, the only way that claim could be made is if we consider Vegeta's level of power when/after he himself achieves the Super Saiya-jin God stage at some point in-between the Beerus arc and the Freeza arc (as it happened off-screen between BoG and Fukkatsu no F, in the movies' version of events), then incorporates the abilities and power of the SSJG stage in his base form - Saiya-jin beyond God - and then achieves/develops the Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin stage. Other than that, the claim itself is obviously ridiculous, and as far as I read nobody made it. Even surpassing Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku temporarily, he's still worlds apart from Vegitto (let alone Beerus).

Vegitto is below the Beerus + Whis duo, that's pretty much a given, but we can really only speculate on how Vegitto's level of power compares to Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta, as all of these four are also still below Beerus and Whis, but if I had to bet I'd say Vegitto is below all of them, regardless of the stage he fights in (base, Super Saiya-jin, Super Saiya-jin 2 or even potentially Super Saiya-jin 3).

[LightBing]

I doubt we get any explanation but if they explained the "mutation", even if superficially, it would easier to swallow. They did have that particular choice of word.

[Bullza]

Because God Goku is 60% of Beerus. If SS Vegetto is stronger than Vegeta, that means SS Vegetto is around 10%. Meaning SS3 Vegetto would be around 80%, still weaker than Beerus sure, but Vegetto being stronger than SSG completely destroys the purpose of the transformation in the first place.

Why couldn't SSJ3 Vegito be around 50% and Super Vegito be around 6% and then Vegeta around 5%.

Just because Beerus was at 10% doesn't mean that Vegeta would have been close to that number.

[Doctor.]

Because God Goku is 60% of Beerus. If SS Vegetto is stronger than Vegeta, that means SS Vegetto is around 10%. Meaning SS3 Vegetto would be around 80%, still weaker than Beerus sure, but Vegetto being stronger than SSG completely destroys the purpose of the transformation in the first place.

Why couldn't SSJ3 Vegito be around 50% and Super Vegito be around 6% and then Vegeta around 5%.

Just because Beerus was at 10% doesn't mean that Vegeta would have been close to that number.

Sure, SS3 Vegetto could be around 50%, I'm just saying he has to be weaker than 60%. Goku still thought Godhood was such an improvement, so I don't like putting Vegetto that close to God Goku, so I personally put Vegetto at 36% now. Vegeta managed to get some good hits on Beerus, so it's best to put him at least at 7%.

[ekrolo2]

Because God Goku is 60% of Beerus. If SS Vegetto is stronger than Vegeta, that means SS Vegetto is around 10%. Meaning SS3 Vegetto would be around 80%, still weaker than Beerus sure, but Vegetto being stronger than SSG completely destroys the purpose of the transformation in the first place.

Why couldn't SSJ3 Vegito be around 50% and Super Vegito be around 6% and then Vegeta around 5%.

Just because Beerus was at 10% doesn't mean that Vegeta would have been close to that number.

I guess this means SSJ4 Gogeta can basically one shot Beerus now

EDIT: Is the 10% thing confirmed? Cause I saw a couple fansubs where Beerus only stated 1%.

[Helios518]

Because God Goku is 60% of Beerus. If SS Vegetto is stronger than Vegeta, that means SS Vegetto is around 10%. Meaning SS3 Vegetto would be around 80%, still weaker than Beerus sure, but Vegetto being stronger than SSG completely destroys the purpose of the transformation in the first place.

Why couldn't SSJ3 Vegito be around 50% and Super Vegito be around 6% and then Vegeta around 5%.

Just because Beerus was at 10% doesn't mean that Vegeta would have been close to that number.

I guess this means SSJ4 Gogeta can basically one shot Beerus now

EDIT: Is the 10% thing confirmed? Cause I saw a couple fansubs where Beerus only stated 1%.

10% is the correct number.

[Blackstripe]

Yeah, apparently Vegeta's potential > Vegetto's, somehow. Fusion has become a joke, pretty much.

As I pointed out in the power level thread, Vegeta didn't get a huge power boost when Cell killed Trunks, but Beerus merely slapping his wife in a way that did no lasting harm?

Maybe Vegeta trained under Roshi during the years after the Majin Buu arc and learned his "when I feel like it" technique.

[Doctor.]

Yeah, apparently Vegeta's potential > Vegetto's, somehow. Fusion has become a joke, pretty much.

As I pointed out in the power level thread, Vegeta didn't get a huge power boost when Cell killed Trunks, but Beerus merely slapping his wife in a way that did no lasting harm?

Maybe Vegeta trained under Roshi during the years after the Majin Buu arc and learned his "when I feel like it" technique.

Nah, enraged Vegetto would destroy Beerus, pretty much.

[Blackstripe]

Yeah, apparently Vegeta's potential > Vegetto's, somehow. Fusion has become a joke, pretty much.

As I pointed out in the power level thread, Vegeta didn't get a huge power boost when Cell killed Trunks, but Beerus merely slapping his wife in a way that did no lasting harm?

Maybe Vegeta trained under Roshi during the years after the Majin Buu arc and learned his "when I feel like it" technique.

Nah, enraged Vegetto would destroy Beerus, pretty much.

So that was what they should've done. Fused into Vegetto and then had someone slap Bulma!

[MaGyunia]

Quite honestly and frankly, coming up with endless calculations to try to figure out how powerful each character is when compared to others, and to what degree(s), is a next-to-futile exercise at this point. Of course we can debate whether a particular fighter is stronger than another, especially when it comes to/involves stages and levels of power achieved in the recent movies (BoG and Fukkatsu no F) and in DBSuper, but in most cases (not all, though) we just lack any specific information that makes it clear or beyond any reasonable doubt that a particular warrior is a given times stronger, or a certain percentage stronger than another. If we go by numbers instead of simply generating lists or rankings, it starts getting overly complicated and everybody disagrees with everybody. Numbers were a good and mathematic way to measure a particular warriors' power level when the Scouters were trendy during the Saiya-jin and Freeza arcs, not anymore.

I could generate a new list, or repeat my past ones (both recent and dating back to a few weeks or even months ago), but I think my points have been made.

I understand that this thread is specifically dedicated to discuss precisely this subject, but the most important thing at this point is to have it pretty clear that nobody surpasses the Beerus + Whis duo, that absolutely nobody (not Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, not Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta, not rage-filled temporarily psychotic Vegeta, not Ultimate Gohan, not fat Majin Buu, not any version of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, not Gotenks, not even Vegitto, if he was still around) come even close to the degree of power those two possess, they're just leagues and worlds apart. Only Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta come close to the level of power of Beerus and Whis, and this automatically puts them in an entirely different level with which the likes of secondary or tertiary (although still extremely powerful and previous main) characters just can't and won't be able to keep up (Gohan, Piccolo, #18, fat Majin Buu, Trunks, Goten, etc.).

It could be argued Goku, Beerus and Vegeta are the three main characters in DBSuper, they're very deliberately pushing Gohan to the sidelines and replacing him slowly but surely by Vegeta both in terms of (co-)protagonism and power, matching one to the other accordingly. Everybody (Piccolo, #18, even Tenshinhan) still gets their fighting time both in the Beerus arc and in the Freeza arc, just like they did in BoG's and Fukkatsu no F's movies' version of events, but not against the main villain, at least not in a lengthy way.

They've very deliberately decided that only Goku and Vegeta, as pure Saiya-jins with the typical constant need to train and fight new and stronger adversaries to overcome their limits and those of others, will be able to keep up with the recently introduced Beerus, Whis and whoever turns out to be the main adversary/villain in the 6th Universe arc.

[Bullza]

Because God Goku is 60% of Beerus. If SS Vegetto is stronger than Vegeta, that means SS Vegetto is around 10%. Meaning SS3 Vegetto would be around 80%, still weaker than Beerus sure, but Vegetto being stronger than SSG completely destroys the purpose of the transformation in the first place.

Why couldn't SSJ3 Vegito be around 50% and Super Vegito be around 6% and then Vegeta around 5%.

Just because Beerus was at 10% doesn't mean that Vegeta would have been close to that number.

Sure, SS3 Vegetto could be around 50%, I'm just saying he has to be weaker than 60%. Goku still thought Godhood was such an improvement, so I don't like putting Vegetto that close to God Goku, so I personally put Vegetto at 36% now. Vegeta managed to get some good hits on Beerus, so it's best to put him at least at 7%.

Alright I see what you're getting at but I don't think it's enough to say for sure he's stronger than Super Vegito.

He was able to hit him a few times and surprise him but he never hurt him or concerned him. Other characters have had much greater effect with a larger gap in power than that if he were at 7%.

Maybe the galick gun was at 7% but I can't see Vegeta being that high if he did so little.

[Helios518]

Alright I see what you're getting at but I don't think it's enough to say for sure he's stronger than Super Vegito.

He was able to hit him a few times and surprise him but he never hurt him or concerned him. Other characters have had much greater effect with a larger gap in power than that if he were at 7%.

Maybe the galick gun was at 7% but I can't see Vegeta being that high if he did so little.

If Enraged Vegeta 7% is and SSJ Vegetto is 8% atleast then his SSJ3 is 64%, which is greater than SSJG Goku and conflicts with the purpose of the transformation and Goku's statement.

[ekrolo2]

Alright I see what you're getting at but I don't think it's enough to say for sure he's stronger than Super Vegito.

He was able to hit him a few times and surprise him but he never hurt him or concerned him. Other characters have had much greater effect with a larger gap in power than that if he were at 7%.

Maybe the galick gun was at 7% but I can't see Vegeta being that high if he did so little.

If Enraged Vegeta 7% is and SSJ Vegetto is 8% atleast then his SSJ3 is 64%, which is greater than SSJG Goku and conflicts with the purpose of the transformation and Goku's statement.

I believe Herms said the fusion Goku referred to was the dance, they have a different term for the Potara one in JPN.

[Blackstripe]

So, thinking it over...

Since Whis says Beerus hasn't used 10% in a long time, we can infer he was using much less against Gokuu. Now, in order to maintain SSG >>>>>>>>>>> Vegetto, which I think should be maintained and needs to be in order to give the new forms any real meaning, we have to basically agree that Vegeta >> Vegetto.

Or do we? And if so, then by how much?

Well, first, just how strong was Vegeta compared to Beerus' 10%? He was knocking the God of Destruction around, but since it was said that he wasn't using 10% of his power up till that point, it is certainly conceivable that he was at a far lower level when Vegeta began his assault.

Need evidence? Beerus deflects Vegeta's initial strike and lands one himself, only for Vegeta to shrug it off and renew his assault. He batters Beerus for a while (although he seems to do no real damage in Super - no blood), and then hits him with a huge blast.

It's at this point that Beerus suddenly ends the fight just as easily as he did with everyone else. This is when I think he used 10%, when he no-sold Vegeta's blast, and then defeated him.

So, I would suggest that through the majority of their altercation there, Beerus was using far below 10%, and the moment he did, Vegeta stood utterly no chance.

[Birusu16]

Alright I see what you're getting at but I don't think it's enough to say for sure he's stronger than Super Vegito.

He was able to hit him a few times and surprise him but he never hurt him or concerned him. Other characters have had much greater effect with a larger gap in power than that if he were at 7%.

Maybe the galick gun was at 7% but I can't see Vegeta being that high if he did so little.

If Enraged Vegeta 7% is and SSJ Vegetto is 8% atleast then his SSJ3 is 64%, which is greater than SSJG Goku and conflicts with the purpose of the transformation and Goku's statement.

I believe Herms said the fusion Goku referred to was the dance, they have a different term for the Potara one in JPN.

He actually said the term that was used refers to both, but he also said that when the potara fusion is mentioned the word is always 合体/gattai which is the word that was used by Goku while the fusion dance in Japanese is simply referred to as "Fusion".

So, thinking it over...

Since Whis says Beerus hasn't used 10% in a long time, we can infer he was using much less against Gokuu. Now, in order to maintain SSG >>>>>>>>>>> Vegetto, which I think should be maintained and needs to be in order to give the new forms any real meaning, we have to basically agree that Vegeta >> Vegetto.

Or do we? And if so, then by how much?

Well, first, just how strong was Vegeta compared to Beerus' 10%? He was knocking the God of Destruction around, but since it was said that he wasn't using 10% of his power up till that point, it is certainly conceivable that he was at a far lower level when Vegeta began his assault.

Need evidence? Beerus deflects Vegeta's initial strike and lands one himself, only for Vegeta to shrug it off and renew his assault. He batters Beerus for a while (although he seems to do no real damage in Super - no blood), and then hits him with a huge blast.

It's at this point that Beerus suddenly ends the fight just as easily as he did with everyone else. This is when I think he used 10%, when he no-sold Vegeta's blast, and then defeated him.

So, I would suggest that through the majority of their altercation there, Beerus was using far below 10%, and the moment he did, Vegeta stood utterly no chance.

This is pretty much what I think as well. It doesn't make sense if Beerus used 10% throughout the entire fight considering he didn't one-shot Vegeta when he first punched him, but then did one-shot him a bit later. So he was likely using much less than 10% early on and then increased it to 10% in order to one-shot Vegeta.

[LightBing]

So, thinking it over...

Since Whis says Beerus hasn't used 10% in a long time, we can infer he was using much less against Gokuu. Now, in order to maintain SSG >>>>>>>>>>> Vegetto, which I think should be maintained and needs to be in order to give the new forms any real meaning, we have to basically agree that Vegeta >> Vegetto.

Or do we? And if so, then by how much?

Well, first, just how strong was Vegeta compared to Beerus' 10%? He was knocking the God of Destruction around, but since it was said that he wasn't using 10% of his power up till that point, it is certainly conceivable that he was at a far lower level when Vegeta began his assault.

Need evidence? Beerus deflects Vegeta's initial strike and lands one himself, only for Vegeta to shrug it off and renew his assault. He batters Beerus for a while (although he seems to do no real damage in Super - no blood), and then hits him with a huge blast.

It's at this point that Beerus suddenly ends the fight just as easily as he did with everyone else. This is when I think he used 10%, when he no-sold Vegeta's blast, and then defeated him.

So, I would suggest that through the majority of their altercation there, Beerus was using far below 10%, and the moment he did, Vegeta stood utterly no chance.

I agree that only on the end of the fight Beerus fought at 10%. Vegeta should be placed between 7,5% and 8%. There's the possibility that Goku predicted power that Beerus didn't demonstrated when he defeated him. That could make SSJ Vegetto above Mutated Vegeta. But it's only baseless speculation.

[Sora Saiyan]

Sure, SS3 Vegetto could be around 50%, I'm just saying he has to be weaker than 60%. Goku still thought Godhood was such an improvement, so I don't like putting Vegetto that close to God Goku, so I personally put Vegetto at 36% now. Vegeta managed to get some good hits on Beerus, so it's best to put him at least at 7%.

Alright I see what you're getting at but I don't think it's enough to say for sure he's stronger than Super Vegito.

He was able to hit him a few times and surprise him but he never hurt him or concerned him. Other characters have had much greater effect with a larger gap in power than that if he were at 7%.

Maybe the galick gun was at 7% but I can't see Vegeta being that high if he did so little.

Yeah, I've been saying I don't place Vegeta near Beerus's 10%. I have Vegeta at 3% of Beerus at that point. Characters who have held a 2x advantage or slightly greater have been hit and left with noticeable damage, and Beerus doesn't show any of that. Vegeta is very casually one shotted shortly after.
But on the other hand, the power Beerus would need to make a laughing stock out of Goku would be 0.05-0.1 IMO. This depends if I put Vegetto above Vegeta or below. It then can be argued that Goku would have no way of gauging Beerus power when he is so ridiculously above him using a lot less than 1% of his power.

[Bullza]

Alright I see what you're getting at but I don't think it's enough to say for sure he's stronger than Super Vegito.

He was able to hit him a few times and surprise him but he never hurt him or concerned him. Other characters have had much greater effect with a larger gap in power than that if he were at 7%.

Maybe the galick gun was at 7% but I can't see Vegeta being that high if he did so little.

If Enraged Vegeta 7% is and SSJ Vegetto is 8% atleast then his SSJ3 is 64%, which is greater than SSJG Goku and conflicts with the purpose of the transformation and Goku's statement.

I'm saying he doesn't have to be 7% though. He could be 5%, maybe even less. Super Vegito could be 6% or less and SSJ3 Vegito could be 48% or less which would be less than SSJG Goku.

Going by the fight that was shown I can't see Vegeta being 70% as strong as Beerus at that time when he did no damage to him at all.