Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Truhan]

Well, Vegeta didn't make a statement, because he didn't say it out loud for anyone to dispute it. He thought to himself that after defeating Majin Buu, there should be no doubt that Goku is #1 in the universe. His personal thought was later contradicted by the arrival of Beerus and Whis, who confirmed his worst fears, making it a less than definitive statement by the author.

As for the statement in the Daizenshuu... Kid Buu being the strongest in the universe also works on many levels, when we consider the people that were around in his fight against Goku:
- Super Buu wasn't around when Kid Buu was considered the strongest;
- Buuhan and Vegetto weren't around as well, but the latter was a possibility;
- Gohan wasn't powered up, even when contributing to the Genki-dama;
- Gotenks didn't come into existence, not even to contribute to the Genki-dama as well;
- Full Power SSJ3 was stated to be enough, but Goku wasn't able to achieve it.

Last, but not the least, Goku was able to defeat "the strongest in the universe" as a SSJ by pushing the Genki-dama all the way. If that wasn't enough, remember that Goku was always stronger than Gohan, with Vegeta as the #2 at base in the Babidi/Buu saga, so why all of a sudden these comparisons and statements need to be made with their transformations in mind is beyond my understanding. Ultimately, Goku will surpass Ultimate Gohan (if he hasn't already) and Gohan will lose grasp of his Hidden Potential. It all checks out in the end, so there's no need to set things in stone when they weren't in the past. Cheers!

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I just assumed that it was baseless hype that was never proven true. The glaring omission of comparisons to Goku's power (who was the benchmark) were missing, and the new powerups didn't amount to much. Even when Goku returns, Vegeta can't do much but gush about how powerful and awesome Goku is, somehting that wouldn't carry any weight if Goku wasn't relevant.

I've always assumed that the multipliers are different for everyone, and that the daizenshuu was correct with it's STRONG implication that Gohan hadn't yet surpassed Goku. I mean, it's still strange that people hold on to that view, even after the statements made in Super...

People here still try to twist their way around that line from Vegeta in Super and say they aren't referring to Gohan/Gotenks, but only the pure blooded saiyains.

[h0kuten]

I just assumed that it was baseless hype that was never proven true. The glaring omission of comparisons to Goku's power (who was the benchmark) were missing, and the new powerups didn't amount to much. Even when Goku returns, Vegeta can't do much but gush about how powerful and awesome Goku is, somehting that wouldn't carry any weight if Goku wasn't relevant.

I've always assumed that the multipliers are different for everyone, and that the daizenshuu was correct with it's STRONG implication that Gohan hadn't yet surpassed Goku. I mean, it's still strange that people hold on to that view, even after the statements made in Super...

Fat Buu is roughly 2.5 Teen Gohan Ssj2 in power, while Gohan is roughly 60% of Goku in the Buu Saga. Therefore making a fully powered Fat Buu only 50% stronger than Majin Vegeta Ssj2 and/or Goku Ssj2. So, for Gotenks Ssj Pre-ROST to be stronger than him, he can be still be less than 50% of Goku Ssj3 but still strong enough to defeat Fat Buu.

For Example:

Spoiler:

Gotenks Ssj Pre-ROST 175
Fat Buu 150
Majin Vegeta 100
Gotenks Base Pre-ROST 87.50
Teen Gohan Ssj2 60

So when people argue that Gotenks has to be so enormously powerful... well... he really doesn't have to be.

[Truhan]

People here still try to twist their way around that line from Vegeta in Super and say they aren't referring to Gohan/Gotenks, but only the pure blooded saiyains.

Huh, that is pedantic. When the Shenron said that pure hearted Saiyans needed to contribute to the ritual, he didn't make a distinction, and yet the ritual took place. There's no need to consider Half-saiyans out of the question.

[h0kuten]

People here still try to twist their way around that line from Vegeta in Super and say they aren't referring to Gohan/Gotenks, but only the pure blooded saiyains.

Huh, that is pedantic. When the Shenron said that pure hearted Saiyans needed to contribute to the ritual, he didn't make a distinction, and yet the ritual took place. There's no need to consider Half-saiyans out of the question.

Good point.

[Taskmaster]

I just assumed that it was baseless hype that was never proven true. The glaring omission of comparisons to Goku's power (who was the benchmark) were missing, and the new powerups didn't amount to much. Even when Goku returns, Vegeta can't do much but gush about how powerful and awesome Goku is, somehting that wouldn't carry any weight if Goku wasn't relevant.

I've always assumed that the multipliers are different for everyone, and that the daizenshuu was correct with it's STRONG implication that Gohan hadn't yet surpassed Goku. I mean, it's still strange that people hold on to that view, even after the statements made in Super...

Fat Buu is roughly 2.5 Teen Gohan Ssj2 in power, while Gohan is roughly 60% of Goku in the Buu Saga. Therefore making a fully powered Fat Buu only 50% stronger than Majin Vegeta Ssj2 and/or Goku Ssj2. So, for Gotenks Ssj Pre-ROST to be stronger than him, he can be still be less than 50% of Goku Ssj3 but still strong enough to defeat Fat Buu.

For Example:

Spoiler:

Gotenks Ssj Pre-ROST 175
Fat Buu 150
Majin Vegeta 100
Gotenks Base Pre-ROST 87.50
Teen Gohan Ssj2 60

So when people argue that Gotenks has to be so enormously powerful... well... he really doesn't have to be.

But we don't know any of this.

We know Goku lied and told Piccolo something he never said to Buu, and we know that Gotenks never fights Buu as a SSJ before he goes into Rosat. In DragonBall Kai (episode 55 8minute mark) Piccolo comments that Gotenks was never enough to beat Fat Buu (this is right after Buu split into wrath Buu and Good Buu) In the Viz Manga, Piccolo makes that same statement to Krillin when Super Buu appears.

There is also the issue of people creating theories and establishing them as fact - For instance, Gotenks fighting SuperBuu in base is taken as some to mean he surpassed his SSJ self, when Piccolo completed took back his previous statement - also Gotenks has no feats to back the statement up, it's actually the exact opposite. We also have the daizenshuu supplying us with complimentary information stating that Gotenks "leveled" up enough that he surpassed Vegeta. The statement that heavily implies that Gotenks power was really a product of his transformation into SSJ3, and Vegeta being mentioned sets a very very very clear picture (to me at least) that Goku isn't included in that statement.

[h0kuten]

That's my personal interpretation and I honestly see no reason for it to not be true. Also, Piccolo begins to get excited and over confident as the boys perform the fusion and remarks at how perfect it went. Gotenks than just finished fusing and had no time to even power up or begin any form of attack. Yet Piccolo remains over confident and later contradicts himself.

[Taskmaster]

Well, Vegeta didn't make a statement, because he didn't say it out loud for anyone to dispute it. He thought to himself that after defeating Majin Buu, there should be no doubt that Goku is #1 in the universe. His personal thought was later contradicted by the arrival of Beerus and Whis, who confirmed his worst fears, making it a less than definitive statement by the author.

As for the statement in the Daizenshuu... Kid Buu being the strongest in the universe also works on many levels, when we consider the people that were around in his fight against Goku:
- Super Buu wasn't around when Kid Buu was considered the strongest;
- Buuhan and Vegetto weren't around as well, but the latter was a possibility;
- Gohan wasn't powered up, even when contributing to the Genki-dama;
- Gotenks didn't come into existence, not even to contribute to the Genki-dama as well;
- Full Power SSJ3 was stated to be enough, but Goku wasn't able to achieve it.

Last, but not the least, Goku was able to defeat "the strongest in the universe" as a SSJ by pushing the Genki-dama all the way. If that wasn't enough, remember that Goku was always stronger than Gohan, with Vegeta as the #2 at base in the Babidi/Buu saga, so why all of a sudden these comparisons and statements need to be made with their transformations in mind is beyond my understanding. Ultimately, Goku will surpass Ultimate Gohan (if he hasn't already) and Gohan will lose grasp of his Hidden Potential. It all checks out in the end, so there's no need to set things in stone when they weren't in the past. Cheers!

Vegeta makes the same statement (or something similar) in Dragon Ball Z, and nothing is shown to contradict that either. If you read the manga objectively, you'll see it almost falls over itself to paint Goku and Buu as far beyond everyone else. I know all the arguments and counter-argument - but if you go off of what is directly stated, there really is no denying it.

tated that Kid Buu's power was rising - By Vegeta, confirmed by Kaioshin. Confirmed By Goku when he stated he couldn't stop Buu from destroying the Earth.

Stated that Goku was holding back to give others the glory.

Stated that Goku was more powerful than Vegeta could imagine.

Stated that Goku was #1 (without any caveats of the living or dead - Vegeta was dead at the time too) Followed a statement proclaiming that Goku was the only one who could fight this Buu

Goku stating that he could wipe this Buu out if he could gather his energy, but Suggested that Fusion into Vegetto would have been more effective.

Goku suggest Gohan AND Gotenks to fight a foe who he just fought evenly with, the opt for a Spirit Bomb that takes the power of every Earthling, the otherworld and Namek instead. - Goku and Vegeta later outright state to the viewer that without Buu and Satan's help EVERYONE would be doomed.

Goku is called #1 in Dragon Ball Super.
Called number one in the daizenshuu
Gohan's bio in the daizenshuu stating inferiority to Goku, but Gohan's power advantage over Gotenks.

[Truhan]

Vegeta makes the same statement (or something similar) in Dragon Ball Z, and nothing is shown to contradict that either. If you read the manga objectively, you'll see it almost falls over itself to paint Goku and Buu as far beyond everyone else. I know all the arguments and counter-argument - but if you go off of what is directly stated, there really is no denying it.

I think the problem would be, as you said in another thread, that a "statement is not meant to be literal". For some people to consider that when it doesn't make sense means to not take every word for granted, so why would these matter in the end? The author has written characters to make false statements before.

Goku suggest Gohan AND Gotenks to fight a foe who he just fought evenly with, the opt for a Spirit Bomb that takes the power of every Earthling, the otherworld and Namek instead. - Goku and Vegeta later outright state to the viewer that without Buu and Satan's help EVERYONE would be doomed.

It was Vegeta's plan, actually, based on uncertainty and faith that was placed on the Earthlings for the sake of a symbolic ending. Goku was the one who made the suggestion of Gohan and Gotenks, so he knew that they could. As for everyone being doomed... it is true, when Kid Buu can blow up planets just as easily (as he was about to right after he appeared).

This is only when people take things literally, because I think Akira Toriyama is also capable of things such as emotion and thrill, which wouldn't be the same without the Genki-dama. Likewise, he would be smart enough to leave things open, when he stopped caring about precise power struggles after the Freeza saga, leaving that to us.

[Darkprince410]

Fat Buu is roughly 2.5 Teen Gohan Ssj2 in power, while Gohan is roughly 60% of Goku in the Buu Saga. Therefore making a fully powered Fat Buu only 50% stronger than Majin Vegeta Ssj2 and/or Goku Ssj2. So, for Gotenks Ssj Pre-ROST to be stronger than him, he can be still be less than 50% of Goku Ssj3 but still strong enough to defeat Fat Buu.

That's just how much power was needed to jump start and revive him, and it wasn't indicated to be fully restoring Buu's ki. It's effectively no different than jump starting a car with a dead battery. You don't need the full amount of electricity that the battery could have produced to jump start it, just enough to get the engine starting.

We know Goku lied and told Piccolo something he never said to Buu, and we know that Gotenks never fights Buu as a SSJ before he goes into Rosat. In DragonBall Kai (episode 55 8minute mark) Piccolo comments that Gotenks was never enough to beat Fat Buu (this is right after Buu split into wrath Buu and Good Buu) In the Viz Manga, Piccolo makes that same statement to Krillin when Super Buu appears.

None of that dialogue appears in the original manga though, so it's effectively irrelevant that it appears in the Viz translation or in Kai. The only time that Ssj Gotenks is said to not be able to fight against Buu is when it comes him fighting against Evil Buu, not Fat Buu.

The facts of the matter have Goku commenting that Gotenks would be strong enough to do what he couldn't, and while we find out later that he was lying about his inability to defeat Fat Buu, at no point is it ever stated or suggested that Gotenks wasn't as powerful as Goku indicated he'd be.

Stated that Kid Buu's power was rising - By Vegeta, confirmed by Kaioshin. Confirmed By Goku when he stated he couldn't stop Buu from destroying the Earth.

Goku indicates that Pure Buu's power dropped considerably from when he was originally Evil Buu, as he exclaims that they had succeeded when Pure Buu completely formed (tying back to their attempts to weaken him to a point where they could beat him on their own).

Stated that Goku was holding back to give others the glory.

Was stated that Goku avoided defeating Fat Buu (and only avoided defeating Fat Buu) because he felt that the boys needed to be able to protect the Earth on their own. At no point does he state or suggest he was holding back at any other point.

Stated that Goku was #1 (without any caveats of the living or dead - Vegeta was dead at the time too) Followed a statement proclaiming that Goku was the only one who could fight this Buu

Vegeta was there on Kaioushin's planet, perfectly capable of fighting, whereas Gohan, Goten, and Trunks were not. At the time, the only two capable of fighting were Goku and Vegeta. Likewise, the entire context of Vegeta's speech about Goku being #1 was in regards to him being a better fighter and the drive he had to be the better (the whole, "he doesn't fight to win, but fights because he won't lose" comment), not Goku's actual strength.

Goku and Vegeta later outright state to the viewer that without Buu and Satan's help EVERYONE would be doomed.

If Mr. Satan wasn't there, Vegeta would have been killed before he brought up the idea of using Namek's Dragon Balls, and if Mr. Buu hadn't come out when he did to offer someone to stall Pure Buu long enough to get the plan going, then Goku and Vegeta would have most certainly been killed, meaning all those left capable of fighting Buu would have been killed, resulting in the universe being doomed.

Goku is called #1 in Dragon Ball Super.

He's called #1 in Super because he defeated Buu, which he did through means other than his own strength (as he used the Genki Dama). As such, him being #1 doesn't refer to him being the strongest.

Called number one in the daizenshuu
Gohan's bio in the daizenshuu stating inferiority to Goku, but Gohan's power advantage over Gotenks.

The Daizenshuu draws from both the manga and anime, so any statements like that can easily be skewed because they're referring to the anime. Besides, if you're going to go with guide book statements, you also need to take into account statements like what appeared in DB Forever, which establishes that Pure Buu is weaker than Evil Buu.

[Taskmaster]

Vegeta makes the same statement (or something similar) in Dragon Ball Z, and nothing is shown to contradict that either. If you read the manga objectively, you'll see it almost falls over itself to paint Goku and Buu as far beyond everyone else. I know all the arguments and counter-argument - but if you go off of what is directly stated, there really is no denying it.

I think the problem would be, as you said in another thread, that a "statement is not meant to be literal". For some people to consider that when it doesn't make sense means to not take every word for granted, so why would these matter in the end? The author has written characters to make false statements before.

Eh...That requires you to find statements that mean everything I listen HAS to mean something else. Saying Gotenks is strong is a simple statement = literal.

Stating that Gotenks is stronger than Buu with NOTHING confirming that = too literal. Goku even admits to Piccolo in private that it's just a gamble, but he wants to give the kids a shot. He goes on to reiterate that same point 2 more times (once for the Elder Kaioshinn and another for Vegeta) He even tells the Elder Kaioshinn that he expected the boys to "manage" something.

Goku states something that is an obvious lie
-Sates to Piccolo that it's a "gamble"
-States to Elder Kaioshinn that he expected the boys to manage something
-No comparison is made to Goku's power
-Gotenks never fights Buu
-Statements made in media suggest he wasn't stronger than Buu.

Goku suggest Gohan AND Gotenks to fight a foe who he just fought evenly with, the opt for a Spirit Bomb that takes the power of every Earthling, the otherworld and Namek instead. - Goku and Vegeta later outright state to the viewer that without Buu and Satan's help EVERYONE would be doomed.

It was Vegeta's plan, actually, based on uncertainty and faith that was placed on the Earthlings for the sake of a symbolic ending. Goku was the one who made the suggestion of Gohan and Gotenks, so he knew that they could. As for everyone being doomed... it is true, when Kid Buu can blow up planets just as easily (as he was about to right after he appeared).

This is only when people take things literally, because I think Akira Toriyama is also capable of things such as emotion and thrill, which wouldn't be the same without the Genki-dama. Likewise, he would be smart enough to leave things open, when he stopped caring about precise power struggles after the Freeza saga, leaving that to us.

I mean, isn't this just reaching now?

We have to assume:
An attack that has never worked is someone "Better" than a sure bet because of "symbolism?"
Goku believed that Gohan and Gotenks could win, though he suggested both fighters and didn't state he thought they could. He did however state that Vegetto COULD beat Buu. (that's the only statement of it's kind by the way)
That Goku's statement about Satan and Buu helping was a lie.
That Goku's follow up conversation with Vegeta stating that the Universe and everyone else would be doomed if Buu returned is also a lie.

Just too many assumptions are needed to make those statements collectively mean something else.

[h0kuten]

Fat Buu does one final power up against Majin Vegeta and after that we see no more.

Facts:

a) Goku toyed the Ginyus with a 50% gap & Vegeta hard a hard time tanking Semi-Perfect Cell with around a 30% gap.
b) Buu couldn't toy Vegeta.
c) Buu couldn't tank Vegeta without being tossed around.

Summarily, Fat Buu being 2.5x Teen Gohan makes the most sense and may be giving him itoo much power. None of his feats dictate anything more than 20% gap. At being 50% superior to Ssj2s makes it so no amount of Ssj2s can defeat him.

Real life has no bearing on a childrends cartoon.

[Darkprince410]

An attack that has never worked is someone "Better" than a sure bet because of "symbolism?"

Goku quite quickly brought up how it never worked before when he reacted in shock to Vegeta suggesting it.

Goku believed that Gohan and Gotenks could win, though he suggested both fighters and didn't state he thought they could. He did however state that Vegetto COULD beat Buu. (that's the only statement of it's kind by the way)

He wouldn't have thought it was Vegeta's plan if he didn't think it was their actual best shot at winning, and the fact that Goku brought it up immediately supports that he considered it a far better idea than the Genki Dama.

That Goku's statement about Satan and Buu helping was a lie.

How is it a lie? If Mr. Satan hadn't stepped in when he did and got Pure Buu's attention, then Vegeta would have died. After that, Buu would have most certainly turned his attention back to Goku, who was far weaker than he was before. With he and Vegeta dead, the only two remaining fighters strong enough to do anything would be gone, leaving the universe at Buu's mercy. With Mr. Satan stepping in, it not only diverted Buu's attention away from Vegeta, but also caused him to spit out Mr. Buu, who managed to stall Pure Buu long enough for the whole Genki Dama plan to kick off.

That Goku's follow up conversation with Vegeta stating that the Universe and everyone else would be doomed if Buu returned is also a lie.

Again, how is that a lie? We saw what happened immediately after Pure Buu formed the first time, that he went and tried to destroy the planet. If Pure Buu formed again and Goku and the others weren't around, then Pure Buu could very well just drop another Earth-destroying blast down, kill everyone else off, and boom, the universe is doomed. Goku was the one that commented that everything would be alright and that, in a worst-case scenario, he and Vegeta could always fight Buu again, and that better case scenario could easily be Gohan or Gotenks being close by to where either of them could take Buu out quickly.

b) Buu couldn't toy Vegeta.

He did toy around with Vegeta following that power-up, as Vegeta stood no chance against him afterward and was thrown around easily.

Fat Buu does one final power up against Majin Vegeta and after that we see no more.

We see what easily could have been one additional huge power up right before he expelled the Pure Evil Buu. Fat Buu's power-ups are shown to be tied to anger more than anything, but he was thoroughly enjoying his fight with Goku, thus no reason for him to get angry and power up.

[h0kuten]

Buu was hurt and could not tank or toy Vegeta. In every scenario where someone can toy someone, they can tank them too. Buu couldn't it. Because he is impervious to physical attack, not because he's infinitely stronger than a Ssj2 tier fighter.

Bring a statement saying Buu powered up, otherwise it's conjecture.

I've got 2 to prove my side of the argument.

[RandomGuy96]

Buu was only ever hurt by Vegeta's charged up ki attack. Even then, he only said it hurt "a tiny bit", then laughed (the implication being that the other dozen attacks Vegeta hit him with didn't hurt at all). Also, impervious to physical attack? Tell that to Vegetto, Gohan, and Gotenks.

There's also the matter of Goku and Buu's fight. It was impossible for Goku to be actively suppressing his power (he couldn't even do that in SS1 until he mastered it, and SS3 is explicitly called unstable), yet he wasn't in a different dimension from Buu. They both budged from each other's punches, then smiled after. They both knocked around the same attack with about as much effort. They both gave off similar ki readings, as Piccolo was not 100% sure if Goku was the stronger of the two. Finally, Goku is sweating by the end of the battle, indicating he put a lot of effort into it.

PS: Daizenshuu 7 says that Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Pure Buu.

[h0kuten]

The art-work says differently. Buu is in a huge amount of pain.

Again, Buu is impervious to physical attacks and cannot be defeated the normal way (M.Vegeta quote). Hence why Goku needed the Spirit bomb or a Kamehameha, and Vegeta tried to explode himself.

[RandomGuy96]

The art-work says differently. Buu is in a huge amount of pain.

Again, Buu is impervious to physical attacks and cannot be defeated the normal way (M.Vegeta quote). Hence why Goku needed the Spirit bomb or a Kamehameha, and Vegeta tried to explode himself.

The artwork shows Buu chuckling after and not really being hurt at all. He was clearly faking being hurt for the lulz, going off his statement.

Total bullshit. Gohan, Gotenks, and Vegetto all beat him down with just physical attacks. These characters weren't all just wasting energy by punching him.

[h0kuten]

The art-work says differently. Buu is in a huge amount of pain.

Again, Buu is impervious to physical attacks and cannot be defeated the normal way (M.Vegeta quote). Hence why Goku needed the Spirit bomb or a Kamehameha, and Vegeta tried to explode himself.

The artwork shows Buu chuckling after and not really being hurt at all. He was clearly faking being hurt for the lulz, going off his statement.

Total bullshit. Gohan, Gotenks, and Vegetto all beat him down with just physical attacks. These characters weren't all just wasting energy by punching him.

Faking to look hurt sounds like an ass pulled excuse.

Only due to being a good deal superior.

Didn't I tell you above Buu is 50% stronger than Vegeta?

[RandomGuy96]

The art-work says differently. Buu is in a huge amount of pain.

Again, Buu is impervious to physical attacks and cannot be defeated the normal way (M.Vegeta quote). Hence why Goku needed the Spirit bomb or a Kamehameha, and Vegeta tried to explode himself.

The artwork shows Buu chuckling after and not really being hurt at all. He was clearly faking being hurt for the lulz, going off his statement.

Total bullshit. Gohan, Gotenks, and Vegetto all beat him down with just physical attacks. These characters weren't all just wasting energy by punching him.

Faking to look hurt sounds like an ass pulled excuse.

Only due to being a good deal superior.

Didn't I tell you above Buu is 50% stronger than Vegeta?

Yet people do it ALL THE TIME in the manga. Buu, being childish and playful, is definitely the type to do this.

Goku was equal or slightly inferior to Pure Buu. His punches still clearly hurt him.

Doesn't work with him not being hurt at all by Vegeta's attacks, or his fight with Goku.

[h0kuten]

I've never seen people do it all the time in a serious conflict. Buu was outright trying to kill Vegeta because he pissed him off.

The only time Pure Buu shows effort is against the Genki Dama. Goku admits he can't beat Pure Buu without a Chi attacked.